Originally Posted by The Atheist
Now this man knows what he's talking about!
"He was nauseous with regret when he saw her face again, and when, as of yore, he pleaded and begged at her knees for the joy of her being. She understood Neal; she stroked his hair; she knew he was mad."
---Jack Kerouac, On The Road: The Original Scroll
Yes, if you kill yourself for self hatred or thinking the world is unfit for yourself, you end up going to hell because we Christian believe that our bodies are like the holy temple as it was constructed in the image of God.
Killing yourself in order to save others is not suicide, it is called sacrifice, and therefore different.
Question: Do unbelievers bound for hell have eternal life? Eternal life is promised to believers, not to those steeped in sin. So then, how is hell eternal? In Revelation we read: "And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death." Jesus said "Fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Destruction means that at some point something no longer exists. To burn in hell eternally would require eternal existence. Forever and ever then becomes a long space of time, but it will end. The word eternal is not used in the Bible to describe hell. Just a thought.
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
Solving a problem that causes headache implies you are struggling.
I do not consider myself following blindly when the person who is struggling seems to be you.
Me repeating the lines of who goes to hell, if it caused so much anger, then from now on I will not emphasise this line. However isnt it true that if any one that is prepared to discuss The Christian Hell, they should be ready to hear about the true values and aspects Christian believe about their Hell?They aren't frustrated by that alone. You have - as I showed - repeated the same line about non-believers going to hell several times. That's what gets people upset. I accept that you're just speaking your mind, but is anything served by repeating it?
When it is repeated several times, it can look insulting.
It doesn't bother me; I've had my spot as Satan's right hand man picked out for years. That's why I'm The Atheist and not some other kind of atheist.
Well. some can and some can't. I think you should at least try to see how someone repeating that they will be tortured eternally for not believing in your god can be hurtful, though. What you're doing is describing a religion which lives on fear - fear of being sent to hell if we don't act the prescribed way.
You talk about the values of christianity as being identical to your thoughts, but there is no agreed "values of christianity". Heaven is certainly about 100% belief among christians, but hell is viewed very differently by sects, so you can't say that your views agree with wider christianity. I'm not saying either one is better than another, just different, but if your personal view matches your church's view, then that's good.
That's an admirable attitude, but you need to understand that to non-theists, your view of your god, heaven and hell is the least attractive version of christianity. A god who punishes people eternally - for whatever reason - isn't all that appealing.
I've been talking to atheists for decades and I'm 100% certain that today's militant atheism was spawned by yesterday's rise of fundamental christianity.
I'm interested to know what constitutes "full christian knowledge" and why that's important, because so far, the only reason you've advanced is that god says so, so it must be true. Given that no evidence exists other than what the bible says, regarding hell, there's little else to know. Plus, I must reiterate that the bible is read very differently between differing sects.
Based on that, and allowing that you're not even the millionth person to repeat god's rules in that way, it's actually quite easy to understand why people dismiss it without going any further.
I'm not going to get too involved in this because it calls for a history of religion lesson. Suffice to say that there isn't anything in the christian religion which hasn't been borrowed from elsewhere - virgin birth, resurrection, miraculous happenings, god-on-earth.... all of them have earlier origins. To me, and many atheists, the bible is a collection of just-so stories of little or no value.
Once we get through that, I'd have to list the inconsistencies and oturight contradictions of the bible, of which there are hundreds. Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible, and in the very same chapters I've heard used in sermons against homosexuality at fundamental churches. And that's just the tip of the iceberg... the she-bears, the iron chariots... there are just so many that I find it impossible to accept that anyone can interpret it consistently.
It is a mockery to then insist that the book is infallibly right.
Not what I meant, I'd seen that post, but no problem.
If some one thought that Christianity lives their life in fear,then I would like to let them know in some aspects yes, but mostly no. God is capable of anything so it is true that if we commit sin, then yes, we fear God will punish us in unexpected ways. However for going to hell, I think not. I believe and most Christians believe that if you believe Jesus as our saviour, then there is no reason for us to worry about going to hell.
I have never met a Christian that did not believe in heaven but may be there is that small number of Christians that do. But if you become a Christian and believer of God, it is very likely that you will understand God created heaven and hell in the first few pages of Genesis.
Yes, I agree that for most atheists, the Christian view of who goes to heaven or hell is unappealing, and I dont blame them to think this way. All some people need is more elaborated explaining that will help them understand it is not "unfair" or "stupid".
Now let me tell you that before Christ there were prophesies about his comings and there were false prophesies too that talked about false Christ and false saviours therefore may of made up the earlier origins that clearly was untrue.
I know there will be much incredulousness, however let me share with you something that can answer some views about Christian hell and heaven that isnt accountable from the bible. Bible may be the recordings of God's Words however as I told you before, the Bible is not the only method to interact with God. There are prayers and spiritual encounters. Miracles and supernatural events that cannot be explained by science. Many skeptics say this can be explained by psychology but in reality, it cannot. I have been to a church that practised anointing, and many people who had incurable diseases such as tumour, people who were paralysed were all healed. Talking in tongues and prophesising occured, and hearing the voice of God all occured. People began to see angels and demons, and their body began to move to praise God by the spirit. Our voices were raised and sang praises that we were unfamiliar of. As some people were anointed, their minds and spiritual being were transfered, heaven and hell. The Pastor asked the people who experienced the journey to heaven and hell individually and all of them seem to describe or draw the scene exactly the same. It was the same realms they were explaining. One child encountered a vision, where she was to eat a golden scroll taste of honey, when she came back to reality, gold dust appeared around her mouth, and many people saw gold dust forming in their own palms. Some people's palms had oil, a spiritual oil that helped cure an incurable disease. Some people began to read other people's mind and troubles, and they began to help these troubled people by communicating with God directly. There was a person who was possessed by the devil and it was the most frightning thing, where people had to lay their hands and ask God to remove such spirit. The miracles kept on coming, and I know that this church is only one of the many churches that God had come to help his people.
Incredulous or not, I just wanted to point out that Christian hell and heaven does exist no matter what other Christians may think.
"Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible,"
These lines come from the old testiment, where the Jews still follow today. Christians do not follow these lines as Jesus had come to sacrifice his own blood and these old rules are not to be carried out since Him. Same with sacrifising animals to God. Jesus had removed these systems just for us.
How do you know tumours were cured? Could you see the tumour then see it gone?
You may think you've seen those things happen, but it's factual that not one single instance of miraculous divine cure has been recorded in the entirety of medical history.
The other side of the coin is that if your god is able to cure people on earth, then why does he let so many children die? Did their parents not pray hard enough?
You live in NZ - we have a couple of famous cases of parents being prosecuted & convicted for neglect because they tried, and failed, to get their god to cure their child instead of taking it to the doctor. Did those people not pray hard enough, or does your god need more martyrs?
Yes, you know, isn't it funny how each different sect of christianity thinks their one is right and the others wrong? Almost two billion christians would disagree with you on hell, but your sect is right, of course.
This is quite funny - denying it because it's in the OT. Do you also deny the myths of creation, the great flood, Moses & Jonah and the thousand other lies in the OT?
If the OT is just a Jewish book, how come the prophecies of Jesus' coming are in it?
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
As tumors being cured, someone who was praying for that person heard God speak that that person was cured. To check, that person went to the doctors for an examination, and it was true there was nothing there. There are actually many cases like this, such as extreme cases of Arthritis being cured the moment people pray for them.
I am quite unsure why not there have been medical history about this, all I know that doctor dismiss people that have been miaculously cured with no further recording. That is an interesting fact which should be investigated.
About children dying, this is completely up to God where He is in control who may be saved and who wouldnt. In fact, it is just one of the aspects that we humans cannot understand about God. I must admit that I was confused why God seem to make someone be born in such places where death seems imminent without the chance to know God. I have decided that this was our responsibility, dividing people by their level of wealth and our greed. I believe that it is our responsibility to go on missions to give an opportunity to such people that they have a choice to believe in God. What happends for them afterlife I do not know as it is not their fault that they do not know God.
I did hear some news in NZ about letting people die or attempting a dead person arise from the dead. I believe that is wrong because I heard that these people claimed that they were the messiah and proving other people they have the power. This is sin, and against the Will of God. The people who got cured in the church I went to were people that even the doctors couldnt help and so it was an act of asking God for His miracle and mercy to happen, not the other way around.
No no you misunderstood about the old testiment. What you were talking about (such as not eating pig and no beards) were Laws of Moses, the laws that God sent down that included the sacrificing of animals. When Jesus sacrificed Himself, the Laws of Moses were broken, and there was no need of these Laws. I believe that the ten commandments were the only law that were to be kept. I never said the old testiment was a Jewish book and I do not know whether they believe in the whole book of the old testiment. You should ask a Jewish person whether they leave out the books that contain the prophecies about the coming of Messiah.
"Yes, you know, isn't it funny how each different sect of christianity thinks their one is right and the others wrong? Almost two billion christians would disagree with you on hell, but your sect is right, of course."
Could you please elaborate? I am unfamiliar about this especially the billions of Christian that disagree about hell, as hell is in the bible, I dont see why not they do not believe in hell.
Skasian every point you're making is not only flawed - but seems to be trying to stitch up the holes in what you believe to be "facts".
"Incredulous or not, I just wanted to point out that Christian hell and heaven does exist no matter what other Christians may think."
In that statement you even admit that other Christians have alternative beliefs. What makes you right? of all the billions of people in the world why should we believe you?
You speak as if from fact.
It seems to me that you're taking Hell and Heaven too literally - if such a thing does in fact exist. Perhaps Hell is only a state of mind - a "place" that is without God.
Though the world seems to be without God today - so maybe we're already there.
It's one thing to tell someone his/her points are "flawed" and quite another thing to show how this is so.
For Christians, heaven and hell ARE facts.
See above.
So if we take it "somewhat literally" that's OK? How do you take something "too literally"? Can something be partially literal, partially metaphoric?
The world seems to be without God - good, you have qualified correctly.
This world isn't hell - God has not withdrawn His presence from it - hell is defined as the place God is not; right now, He is still here - we still have beauty, we still have love, compassion, mercy, justice (to a certain extent), generosity, etc. Without God's presence, none of these things would exist because our ability to enact them even in our most mitigated ways comes from HIM.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
So, you never saw the tumours, but have believed that they existed. Accordingly, what you saw was nothing, but you have been told a story which you chose to believe.
These things have been investigated, yet not a single instance of miraculous cure has ever been recorded. That is despite 3/4 of all medical doctors in USA being christians. You'd think some of them would be quite keen to see a real miracle recoreded, wouldn't you, yet it does not happen.
I guess the thought that you're being lied to isn't a possibility?
You clearly missed the point with the NZ couples, because nobody claimed to be the messiah - but both couples prayed to their god instead of going to the doctor.
Did they not pary hard enough?
As to the people "cured" in your church, Benny Hinn does exactly the same thing, yet he's been labelled a charlatan by even the Southern Baptist Convention.
Don't you find it funny that the identical things are carried out by frauds?
To check the real details of the "miracle cures" I would need to see notarised statements from doctors confirming both the existence of the disease and the cure.
Isn't it odd that none of them ever do that, despite a genuine miracle being something which would actually impress the unbelievers?
There are over a billion Catholics in the world for starters and their official doctrine doesn't include a hell. Given the thousands of theologists in the employ of the RCC over many centuries, I think their view is considered by most to be the best interpretation of the bible, yet you dismiss it, saying that your theology is right! How long has your church been in existence? How many biblical scholars have devoted their lives to reading and translating the original Greek, Hebrew, Amhharic and Latin texts?
Here are details of the different branches of christianity.
Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and many other sects do not believe in hell, accounting for over 80% of christians.
Maybe you should check what some other branches think.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
Love, compassion, mercy and justice are exercised by us. Because such things exist does not mean God is right here with us right now, it means that as his creations, we are sharing and showing them and all of them to me, are a matter of choice ( with the exception of love )
It does not mean he is here, it just means that we are "living".
Last edited by Zee.; 01-04-2009 at 04:29 PM. Reason: rewritten.
We're really not going very far with this discussion. Perhaps i should just accept that i'm going to Hell and take my leave.
If you've read the Bible, Paul makes it clear in the NT that all good comes from God - any goodness we have comes from His presence in our heart.
In your opinion. I give you what the Bible says.
What makes you think that's your final destination? Are you really so certain that your life has finished with all its growth, all its changes? I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. God is in the business of changing "sinners" into "saints." It is not His desire that any perish - but His respect of our freedom to choose means that for some, He will have to allow them to choose hell instead of Him. Such a reality grieves God, but He won't take our freedom away. That's called "love" by the way.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
See you there!
I always thought hell sounds just like my kind of place - full of atheists, not a christian in sight, all-night parties and loads of S & M. And Satan has such a great sense of humour.
What more could you need?And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
Check Revelation: Satan won't be attending that party. Not sure who the host will be.
"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis
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