No, our God is beyond being our Father, protector and comfort zone.
He is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords and a merciful judge in the highest of the heavens.
In the bible, He states that He is the Alpha and the Omega, The first and the Last.
The creator of the universe, world, us and every organic substance in-between.
Becareful on how you finalise your statement because quite frankly, you are wrong.
Blaze, all this universe is the energy of God.
actually blaze is spot on.
also. i'm tired of hearing that God " is the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords."
sure its poetic and powerful. but when ideas need to be put down on paper poetically in order for the meaning to stick in folks minds', you can bet your jiblets someone is passing off sweet lies as truth.
happy festivus! the "airing of grievances" begins amongst my friends tonight. then its on to the feats of strength tomorrow morning
Last edited by billyjack; 12-25-2008 at 10:40 PM.
Well if you are an atheist then it's natural for you to reject the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. I'm saying this with a tiny bit of jest. My point is that we can discuss...perhaps if you disagreed with skasian using the term "King of Kings," etc., you could find something else of substance in her post to discuss? Just a thought.Originally Posted by billyjack
Last edited by NikolaiI; 12-26-2008 at 02:16 AM.
Remember when the scientific revolution, the enlightenment, and the emergence of rationalism occurred? About the same time as...the emergence of liberalism and capitalism!Today science has changed the way people live and think.
Breaking things down into equalities and CONVERTIBILE values (subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, moles, etc.) allows us to mechanize the world. This is advantageous to the economy and its masters. We see things, no longer as romantic / mysterious or inherent, but as combinations of various units. These units can be given values, which can be then exchanged for capital. Can you put a value on God? No, so...where does He fit into this capitalist mindset? He doesn't.
Just as NikolaiI has kindly said, we can discuss something else in the substance.
I too consider that any atheist will disapprove with God being King of Kings and the Lord of Lords as they simply do not approve God being our God. Describing our God as King of Kings to such firsttime believers or atheists I believe won't get any where. However with an elaborated explanation of the reason why He is so may be suffice. But most of the time, elaborated explanation do not hinder the atheists' heart as it takes more than our words to formulate faith. It takes the Holy Spirit to create faith and eyes to see the power of our God.
I have deep passion in science, especially in biology, chemistry and psychology. But the reason why I do not compare with religion is because science is a manmade field. It is extremely limited and always uncertain. It is true that science indeed have changed our perspectives in life however as spiritual wise, we have not. Science, serves us in the physical world, as it constantly improves our capabilities of living. However, again, spiritual wise, improves nothing. My point is that science do not touch the spiritual level therefore undebatable in the topic of religion. (Unless you are a Tom Cruise fanatic and believe in scientology)
I agree with you. However, I think that it does not improve our capabilities of living. It is utilized by the powerful and unavailable to the weak.
first off, i'm not atheist. that said, i think questioning the wording that is used in regards to God is not something that need be brushed off hastily, nor is it lacking in discussional substance. my beef with "king of kings" is that its elitist. by saying "lord of lords" you're automatically saying that you're god is the god of any other gods that might be out there. wording like this breeds resentment from other religions and it gives over-zealous Christians that phony sense of pride and holier than thou mentality that comes with thinking they have a monopoly on truth.
I will tell a story that I read many years ago but which has stayed with me since then. The story I write from memory and some sentences I have made up as I don’t exactly remember what was written, but the gist of the story remain unchanged:
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Long, long ago, Gods used to dwell in midst of human beings. One such God was Gujguj God who lived in a prosperous village. Gujguj God had a very good standing in the village and villagers would flock to him in their good times or bad times. In the village there also lived a simple, honest and hardworking farmer with his family. Gujguj God spoke highly about him to the people who would visit him.
One day the farmer came running to the Gujguj God and wailed, “ Gujguj God! Gujguj God! My crops have been destroyed completely in floods. How will I now feed my family? Please help me.”
Gujguj God told farmer not to worry unnecessarily. He told him, “ You have a good reputation in village. You ask for money or grains from other farmers as loan. No one will refuse you. Then once you get back to your original position, you slowly repay the loan back.”
Hearing this, the farmer quietly went back to his place and did as the Gujguj God told him to do.
Few months later, the farmer once again came running to Gujguj God in great despair, “Gujguj God! Gujguj God! Both of my children have suddenly died due to a mysterious fever. What is the purpose of my life now? Please bring them back to life”
Gujguj God listened to the farmer’s lamentation quietly. Then he said,” My son, it is the rule of creation that one does not return from death. But your wife is young and capable of bearing many more children. Go, and raise the family again.”
The poor farmer quietly returned to his home.
Not many months have passed, when the farmer again came running to the Gujguj God in a completely distressed and breakdown condition and wept: “ Gujjuj God! Gujguj God! My beloved wife has died just now of a snake bite. I am finished. Please, please get her back to me or bring death for me.”
Gujguj God looked solemnly at the farmer and said.” My dear son, life is sacred and not to be frittered away lightly. You are young and handsome. While coming to my adobe, you must have passed the well outside the village and must have seen beautiful maidens returning home carrying water. You should marry one of those girls and start all over again.”
Hearing this the farmer was suddenly filled with a blind rage. He looked around and saw an axe for cutting wood in Gujguj God’s hut. Picking it up and in one mad blow he chopped one hand of the Gujguj God. Gujguj God cried in pain.” Oh! My hand. What are you doing?”
The farmer replied.” Don’t worry about a lost hand. You still have one hand with which you can perform all the necessary functions.”
Then he lunged again at the Gujguj God and with another mighty blow cut off his one leg. The Gujguj God cried with unbearable pain.” Oh! My leg. Have you gone mad?”
The farmer replied,” Don’t worry about your lost leg. Look at the sun set. See, how beautiful the setting sun and the scenery all around is looking.”
From that day onwards, all Gods decided to become dumb to the calls of human beings and turned themselves into statues of stone.
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I see this story from three angles.
First, I see it written by a writer with an atheist outlook. The writer is sneering at the God’s lofty concepts and theories and is probably trying to say- the real world runs on its own style and God sermons and concepts don’t play much role in people’s lives. Unpredictable may happen and leave you devastated and no God is coming to help you in the manner you want.
Secondly, I see the story from believers angle.
The believers can be divided into semi-believers and true believers.
The semi believers, believe in a God when life is running good and smooth and is manageable. When hardships begin to come, when living life begin to get difficult, when there are unnatural deaths in families, or a person is permanently handicapped, when something bad and irreversible happens, when you loose a good job, you find that your spouse or lover is cheating on you, your kids get spoilt and other such things, then the faith of these people get snapped, as happened in the case of the farmer in the story. Such people keep toggling between God or no God.
Lastly, I think what if farmer was a true believer in Gujguj God. ( Gujguj God way of speaking was tactless but it still had the wisdom of the world. Also Gujguj God was just one of the God, and not the universal God I started the thread with). What the modern self-help experts would have told the farmer. It would have been more or less to what Gujguj God said.- Past is bucket of ashes. Live in present. Get over your grief. Start life all over again. When you really work at something, new avenues open before you. Everything get all right with time.
If the farmer had followed the Gujguj God unconditionally, he would have married a girl once his grief was over. May be that girl would have given her more love than her dead wife. May be the children would have been better.
I think of true believers as people who when struck by a great personal tragedy may despair, but do not leave God. They accept good or bad as will of the God and believe in God unconditionally. I think they also possesses selflessness.
I also believe that if you try to lead such life, God takes care. You may get your share of pains and heartbreaks but you will also get your share of happiness and sunshine.
What do you imply by science being unavailable to the weak and only utilized by the powerful? Do you imply the powerful as people that are intellectually superior than average and weak as the intellectually inferior?
What are the reasons that make you think that science does not improve the capabilities of living? Isn't it true that science and its technology that is based on it improve the standards of living? For example by increased knowledge of biochemistry and study of the immune system help us to take necessary drugs and medicine to improve our health. Improving health also improves our capabilities of living.
Let me elucidate. When God said that he is King of kings and Lord of lords, he is implying that he is above anything in the world as he has created the world. By other kings and lords, he means by the people that are identified as kings and lords in earth. It is known that in the ancient times that kings and lords were ascended to earth by God Himself. Therefore God is saying that he is above all the people that are highest standing in earth. In other words, in hierarchy, we appoint the leader as alpha male. In the same line, God identifies Himself as the alpha, therefore leader and also the leader of all leaders that stood in earth. To be more specific, he is the overall King and Lord for mankind.
na uh. for instance. i dont think a great writer would put himself above his masterpiece. rather, he'd probably think the masterpiece above him in that he was "in the zone" (to use a michael jordan phrase) and he himself was not so much responsible for the finished product, but rather a median through which the product, in this case a book, found its completion.
appeal to the past and an appeal to an unreliable authority. people were throwing around stone tools when that line of reasoning worked
alpha males allow their status as "alpha" to be challenged. when they get old and brittle, such as the christian ideal of god, they lose their status as alpha and typically get thrown out of the pack. this isnt to say that god is dead, but i am saying that old ideas about god have become unbelievable (to paraphrase Nietzsche)
God is not simply an alpha male. God is OM. God is God. There are many ways to think of Him. He is the male and the female aspect of the divinity. The female aspect of God is love of God personified.
Think of the universe. Now what does the universe come from? Everything that exists has an essance, a substance of some kind. Everything has a source. The source which is the original source is God. Whether God is personal or impersonal is not an issue until it's understood that God exists, personal or impersonal. Everything has a source and God is the original source - this may seem abstract. But can we infer anything about the source - God? We can infer that the source is Complete, and it is perfect, that in the source, the forms of everything which comes after it already exist.
you say the universe comes from god. i say it doesnt come from anywhere bc there is nowhere outside it for it to come from.
everything has a source? you could go on and on ad infinitum looking for the source of things. at some point you randomly stop and say, God! rather than looking back to a source or a cause, might be more helpful to admit the arbitrariness of this and look around at what is--after all, isnt talk of source and cause only a means to understand what is? what better way to do this than to ditch the old witchcraft of "looking back" to prove/justify the present
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