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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #2476
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    I loved reading your post, you two. I laughed at your last line, Dark Muse....you just won't give way to Virgil's Italian virility....hope I spelled that right...hehe

    Virgil, how in the world did you dig up that link on Brett? Wowy, you know how I love exploring these sites. I have been there looking at all kinds of things. NM really fascinates me. One site said that there is a movement to re-establish/revitatize the original ranch....probably Lawrence's fan club...there is one on line...another site devoted entirely to Lawrence, you know.

    You love to post that horrid photo of Frieda with the cigerette hanging out her mouth, don't you? There are some that are a little more flattering that that one. I also found this very nice photo of Brett and will post it tomorrow. I think the group above were older, when that photo was taken, even possibly after Lawrence's death.

    Anyway, I found this quote of Lawrence's really interesting...something to think about:

    The dialectic between man and woman is a chief theme in Lawrence:

    Man the doer, the knower, the original in being is he the lord of life? Or is the woman, the great Mother, who bore us from the womb of love, is she the supreme Goddess?

    (Lawrence, Fantasia of the Unconscious)
    Just goes to show how Lawrence thought. Maybe he was torn between the two sexes and the power in each. Just a thought, on my part.

    I wasn't around tonight because I was out all day and I went to see my grandbaby - the apple of my eye; oh how I adore her. It was a great visit. She is so adorable. I will comment more tomorrow on the story; I am dead tired now.
    Last edited by Janine; 11-21-2008 at 12:32 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #2477
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I loved reading your post, you two. I laughed at your last line, Dark Muse....you just won't give way to Virgil's Italian virility....hope I spelled that right...hehe
    Lawrence admired Italian virilty.

    Virgil, how in the world did you dig up that link on Brett? Wowy, you know how I love exploring these sites. I have been there looking at all kinds of things. NM really fascinates me. One site said that there is a movement to re-establish/revitatize the original ranch....probably Lawrence's fan club...there is one on line...another site devoted entirely to Lawrence, you know.
    Just surfing.

    You love to post that horrid photo of Frieda with the cigerette hanging out her mouth, don't you? There are some that are a little more flattering that that one. I also found this very nice photo of Brett and will post it tomorrow. I think the group above were older, when that photo was taken, even possibly after Lawrence's death.
    I've come to the conclusion Frieda was absolutely horrid to Lawrence. He would have been better off if he had not married her.

    Just goes to show how Lawrence thought. Maybe he was torn between the two sexes and the power in each. Just a thought, on my part.
    He may have been torn occaisionally or at one point in his life, but he definitely came to a conclusion.

    I wasn't around tonight because I was out all day and I went to see my grandbaby - the apple of my eye; oh how I adore her. It was a great visit. She is so adorable. I will comment more tomorrow on the story; I am dead tired now.
    That's nice and way more important than this.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #2478
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Lawrence admired Italian virilty.
    Truly he did! Hey, recall the guy in "Sun"? He was a viril Italian peasant, wasn't he?

    Just surfing.
    Cool, you did good! You know I never thought to look her up separately. Her paintings are almost as awful as Lawrence's. Actually though, I did find a few of them slightly interesting. By the way, she did not do the one on the page of the male nudes - I clicked on that one and it was done by another artist; just mentions Brett somewhere on the page. That painting is kind of cool.

    I've come to the conclusion Frieda was absolutely horrid to Lawrence. He would have been better off if he had not married her.
    I don't know. I think it went both ways. He could be pretty horrid to her also. They seemed to fight like cats and dogs and yet they did truly seem to have this odd kind of deeper love for each other. Hard to explain that; you have to read more biographies - have you ever read one complete book on the two? I would recommend Brenda Maddow. I thought it was really good and informative about the Taos crowd and the Lawrence's. Their time there was complicated; that is putting it mildly...

    He may have been torn occaisionally or at one point in his life, but he definitely came to a conclusion.
    Oh yeah, when was that? That book it was quoted from, I believe, was quite a late work.

    That's nice and way more important than this.
    It surely is important to me. Brooke is the most important little person in my life right now. She has to be my priority now. You would love her; she is so great and so much fun. I love her so....
    Last edited by Janine; 11-21-2008 at 01:11 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  4. #2479
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    :Oh yeah, when was that? That book it was quoted from, I believe, was quite a late work.
    Fantasia of the Unconscious I believe was written in 1921. His New Mexico experiences started in 1924. I think there is enough anti feminist leanings throughout Lawrence from the very beginning to think he had these ideas formulated already. Who knows, maybe felt the need to moderate his views early on.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  5. #2480
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Fantasia of the Unconscious I believe was written in 1921. His New Mexico experiences started in 1924. I think there is enough anti feminist leanings throughout Lawrence from the very beginning to think he had these ideas formulated already. Who knows, maybe felt the need to moderate his views early on.
    You certainly aren't verbose tonight - did I use the right word? I plead no contest to the above, but where is the answer/response to the rest of my long post??? (above) I guess you are just listening now, too....
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  6. #2481
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    You certainly aren't verbose tonight - did I use the right word? I plead no contest to the above, but where is the answer/response to the rest of my long post??? (above) I guess you are just listening now, too....
    I guess so. I didn't think anything else reuired a response. We've had the discussion once before on whether Frieda was good for him.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  7. #2482
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I guess so. I didn't think anything else reuired a response. We've had the discussion once before on whether Frieda was good for him.
    Oh that again....I guess I will plead the 5th ammendment.....BUT... why do you always insist on putting the very worst photo of her on here? There are nicer ones out there, you know.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  8. #2483
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    That was the photo that had Dorothy Brett in it. Ok here's another.



    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #2484
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    That was the photo that had Dorothy Brett in it. Ok here's another.


    Well, that is an old one, too.....you know people do gain weight when they get older sometimes. Besides it looks like she is squinting from the sun. You are being mean...

    I will have to go find a more attractive photo of her and post it. I have tons of them in my books, but my scanner is not working currently. It is not like any of us are toothpicks. We all do age eventually. Life wasn't easy, I imagine, living with Lawrence.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  10. #2485
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Just waiting now for Virgil, our fearless leader, to post some more text to comment on.

    Heee...lo, Virgil, where are you?
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  11. #2486
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I'm here.


    Quoi faire? What was she to do? She seemed faced with absolute nothingness. Only she had Miss Cummins, who shared with her the secret, and almost the passion for her father. In fact, the Princess felt that her passion for her mad father had in some curious way transferred itself largely to Charlotte Cummins during the last years. And now Miss Cummins was the vessel that held the passion for the dead man. She herself, the Princess, was an empty vessel.

    An empty vessel in the enormous warehouse of the world.

    Quoi faire? What was she to do? She felt that, since she could not evaporate into nothingness, like alcohol from an unstoppered bottle, she must do something. Never before in her life had she felt the incumbency. Never, never had she felt she must do anything. That was left to the vulgar.

    Now her father was dead, she found herself on the fringe of the vulgar crowd, sharing their necessity to do something. It was a little humiliating. She felt herself becoming vulgarised. At the same time she found herself looking at men with a shrewder eye: an eye to marriage. Not that she felt any sudden interest in men, or attraction towards them. No. She was still neither interested nor attracted towards men vitally. But marriage, that peculiar abstraction, had imposed a sort of spell on her. She thought that marriage, in the blank abstract, was the thing she ought to do. That marriage implied a man she also knew. She knew all the facts. But the man seemed a property of her own mind rather than a thing in himself, another thing.

    Her father died in the summer, the month after her thirty-eighth birthday. When all was over, the obvious thing to do, of course, was to travel. With Miss Cummins. The two women knew each other intimately, but they were always Miss Urquhart and Miss Cummins to one another, and a certain distance was instinctively maintained. Miss Cummins, from Philadelphia, of scholastic stock, and intelligent but untravelled, four years younger than the Princess, felt herself immensely the junior of her 'lady'. She had a sort of passionate veneration for the Princess, who seemed to her ageless, timeless. She could not see the rows of tiny, dainty, exquisite shoes in the Princess's cupboard without feeling a stab at the heart, a stab of tenderness and reverence, almost of awe.

    Miss Cummins also was virginal, but with a look of puzzled surprise in her brown eyes. Her skin was pale and clear, her features well modelled, but there was a certain blankness in her expression, where the Princess had an odd touch of Renaissance grandeur. Miss Cummins's voice was also hushed almost to a whisper; it was the inevitable effect of Colin Urquhart's room. But the hushedness had a hoarse quality.

    The Princess did not want to go to Europe. Her face seemed turned west. Now her father was gone, she felt she would go west, westwards, as if for ever. Following, no doubt, the March of Empire, which is brought up rather short on the Pacific coast, among swarms of wallowing bathers.

    No, not the Pacific coast. She would stop short of that. The South-West was less vulgar. She would go to New Mexico.

    She and Miss Cummins arrived at the Rancho del Cerro Gordo towards the end of August, when the crowd was beginning to drift back east. The ranch lay by a stream on the desert some four miles from the foot of the mountains, a mile away from the Indian pueblo of San Cristobal. It was a ranch for the rich; the Princess paid thirty dollars a day for herself and Miss Cummins. But then she had a little cottage to herself, among the apple trees of the orchard, with an excellent cook. She and Miss Cummins, however, took dinner at evening in the large guest-house. For the Princess still entertained the idea of marriage.

    The guests at the Rancho del Cerro Gordo were of all sorts, except the poor sort. They were practically all rich, and many were romantic. Some were charming, others were vulgar, some were movie people, quite quaint and not unattractive in their vulgarity, and many were Jews. The Princess did not care for Jews, though they were usually the most interesting to talk to. So she talked a good deal with the Jews, and painted with the artists, and rode with the young men from college, and had altogether quite a good time. And yet she felt something of a fish out of water, or a bird in the wrong forest. And marriage remained still completely in the abstract. No connecting it with any of these young men, even the nice ones.

    The Princess looked just twenty-five. The freshness of her mouth, the hushed, delicate-complexioned virginity of her face gave her not a day more. Only a certain laconic look in her eyes was disconcerting. When she was forced to write her age, she put twenty-eight, making the figure two rather badly, so that it just avoided being a three.

    Men hinted marriage at her. Especially boys from college suggested it from a distance. But they all failed before the look of sardonic ridicule in the Princess's eyes. It always seemed to her rather preposterous, quite ridiculous, and a tiny bit impertinent on their part.

    The only man that intrigued her at all was one of the guides, a man called Romero--Domingo Romero. It was he who had sold the ranch itself to the Wilkiesons, ten years before, for two thousand dollars. He had gone away, then reappeared at the old place. For he was the son of the old Romero, the last of the Spanish family that had owned miles of land around San Cristobal. But the coming of the white man and the failure of the vast flocks of sheep, and the fatal inertia which overcomes all men, at last, on the desert near the mountains, had finished the Romero family. The last descendants were just Mexican peasants.

    Domingo, the heir, had spent his two thousand dollars, and was working for white people. He was now about thirty years old, a tall, silent fellow, with a heavy closed mouth and black eyes that looked across at one almost sullenly. From behind he was handsome, with a strong, natural body, and the back of his neck very dark and well-shapen, strong with life. But his dark face was long and heavy, almost sinister, with that peculiar heavy meaninglessness in it, characteristic of the Mexicans of his own locality. They are strong, they seem healthy. They laugh and joke with one another. But their physique and their natures seem static, as if there were nowhere, nowhere at all for their energies to go, and their faces, degenerating to misshapen heaviness, seem to have no raison d'être, no radical meaning. Waiting either to die or to be aroused into passion and hope. In some of the black eyes a queer, haunting mystic quality, sombre and a bit gruesome, the skull-and-cross-bones look of the Penitentes. They had found their raison d'être in self-torture and death-worship. Unable to wrest a positive significance for themselves from the vast, beautiful, but vindictive landscape they were born into, they turned on their own selves, and worshipped death through self-torture. The mystic gloom of this showed in their eyes.

    But as a rule the dark eyes of the Mexicans were heavy and half alive, sometimes hostile, sometimes kindly, often with the fatal Indian glaze on them, or the fatal Indian glint.
    Well, there's a lot here too.

    First, this is a Lwarence technique that he uses in many places. He'll bring a charcter to a crossroads and then he asks, Where to? What next? In this story he uses the Italian, "Quoi faire? " and then "What was she to do?" This is what she's faced with: "She seemed faced with absolute nothingness." Now this is a foreshadow of when she stares into the emptyness of the mountains. I'll post this, though we will get to it eventually:
    In front now was nothing but mountains, ponderous, massive, down-sitting mountains, in a huge and intricate knot, empty of life or soul. Under the bristling black feathers of spruce near-by lay patches of white snow. The lifeless valleys were concaves of rock and spruce, the rounded summits and the hog-backed summits of grey rock crowded one behind the other like some monstrous herd in arrest.
    The emptiness that she sees in the mountains is from the emptiness inside her.

    Miss Cummins is also interesting, and suggestive of the repressed sexuality that Dollie has:
    Miss Cummins also was virginal, but with a look of puzzled surprise in her brown eyes. Her skin was pale and clear, her features well modelled, but there was a certain blankness in her expression, where the Princess had an odd touch of Renaissance grandeur. Miss Cummins's voice was also hushed almost to a whisper; it was the inevitable effect of Colin Urquhart's room. But the hushedness had a hoarse quality.
    Ironic that the virginal woman is named Cummins, a sexual term. Lawrence I think is having a little fun.

    Interesting how the term "vulgar" repeats here:
    Now her father was dead, she found herself on the fringe of the vulgar crowd, sharing their necessity to do something. It was a little humiliating. She felt herself becoming vulgarised.
    This just reminds me of Henry James, who felt that common people were vulgar. There is a sort of James sexual repression in Dollie.

    And then we get Romero's background. What's striking about his background is the fatal nature of the Indians. This is another thing that Lawrence seems to repeat, the Indians of the Americas have this sense of doomed fate. Of course that plays into Romero's fate in the story. But there are positive attributes too: strong, natural, handsome. But this is his key to his character as it fits into the story:

    But their physique and their natures seem static, as if there were nowhere, nowhere at all for their energies to go, and their faces, degenerating to misshapen heaviness, seem to have no raison d'être, no radical meaning. Waiting either to die or to be aroused into passion and hope. In some of the black eyes a queer, haunting mystic quality, sombre and a bit gruesome, the skull-and-cross-bones look of the Penitentes. They had found their raison d'être in self-torture and death-worship. Unable to wrest a positive significance for themselves from the vast, beautiful, but vindictive landscape they were born into, they turned on their own selves, and worshipped death through self-torture. The mystic gloom of this showed in their eyes.
    Waiting either "to die or aroused into passion." Those words carry sexual connotatons.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  12. #2487
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I'm here.
    Yeah! I whistle and you come! Glad you posted more text, but wow, this is a lot to discuss all at once...I will try my best to add to your comments.

    Well, there's a lot here too.
    Definitely.

    First, this is a Lwarence technique that he uses in many places. He'll bring a charcter to a crossroads and then he asks, Where to? What next? In this story he uses the Italian, "Quoi faire? " and then "What was she to do?" This is what she's faced with: "She seemed faced with absolute nothingness." Now this is a foreshadow of when she stares into the emptyness of the mountains. I'll post this, though we will get to it eventually:
    Good observation. I agree with that. The trip up the mountainside is a journey, not unlike the spiritual journey that Lawrence takes; but in this case the spiritualism is never realised. Obviously, The Princess sees the mountainside much differently because of her emptiness and her lack of insight into being a fully realised woman. She probably longed to be transformed by the experience but we know now that she is not touched by it at all, she never undergoes any form of transfiguration.

    The emptiness that she sees in the mountains is from the emptiness inside her.
    True and I liked this line

    "An empty vessel in the enormous warehouse of the world"

    That's a perfect way to describe her.

    Miss Cummins is also interesting, and suggestive of the repressed sexuality that Dollie has:
    Miss Cummins seems like a whinny prude to me....sort of school marmish or something.

    Ironic that the virginal woman is named Cummins, a sexual term. Lawrence I think is having a little fun.
    It is? I just looked in the dictionary and can't find it. Oh, maybe one has to check an urban dictionary. I did cumin which is a parsley type plant. Guess that is not it though. Is it street slang, just curious...?

    Interesting how the term "vulgar" repeats here:

    This just reminds me of Henry James, who felt that common people were vulgar. There is a sort of James sexual repression in Dollie.
    Yes, it reminds me of it too; reminescent of Jame's characters.

    And then we get Romero's background. What's striking about his background is the fatal nature of the Indians. This is another thing that Lawrence seems to repeat, the Indians of the Americas have this sense of doomed fate. Of course that plays into Romero's fate in the story. But there are positive attributes too: strong, natural, handsome. But this is his key to his character as it fits into the story:
    The fatal aspect does often crop up in Lawrence's work of that time period. One sees it come to a head in "The Plumed Serpent". I think Romero's physical description is almost interchangable with the gypsy in "The Virgil and the Gypsy"....asside from the fatalistic part about the Indians or Mexicans. Both are dark skinned and very alluring in physical aspect. In both cases, no one else has interested them and then they feel this strong animalistic attraction to the dark haired, dark skinned man of natural and strong beauty. It is definitely the old blood philosophy surfacing again.

    Waiting either "to die or aroused into passion." Those words carry sexual connotatons.
    Most definitely they do. Don't they refer to the dying of 'will' if true transfiguration is realised?

    I want to add that, when we get to the descriptions of the mountain climb, I find those some of the most beautiful and awesome that Lawrence has ever written. This part really captivated me. In some sense they are rising above the world they know, and both reject; yet still The Princess cannot really rise above her ingrained ideals or isolated self, and she fails to give in to this experience on the mountaintop, which could tranform her. Hope that makes sense. When we get to that part, I will comment in more depth.
    Last edited by Janine; 11-23-2008 at 09:10 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  13. #2488
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    It is? I just looked in the dictionary and can't find it. Oh, maybe one has to check an urban dictionary. I did cumin which is a parsley type plant. Guess that is not it though. Is it street slang, just curious...?
    Janine, it's a play on cumming or cum. You can try googling that, but be careful what cums up.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  14. #2489
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Janine, it's a play on cumming or cum. You can try googling that, but be careful what cums up.
    I don't need to google it, thanks, and I won't run a search for fear of certain websites. I figured that is what you were referring to, but thought I would give it the benefit of the doubt. Well, thanks for spelling it out to me. You are so naughty. Surprised that is not being censored. haha. What is that last part - 'no pun intented'?!
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  15. #2490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I don't need to google it, thanks, and I won't run a search for fear of certain websites. I figured that is what you were referring to, but thought I would give it the benefit of the doubt. Well, thanks for spelling it out to me. You are so naughty. Surprised that is not being censored. haha. What is that last part - 'no pun intented'?!
    Yes, I should have said no pun intended, but I did intend the pun. Hey blame this on Lawrence. He knew what he was doing with the character's name.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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