Poetry Bookclub 2

[quasimodo1]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poe...thke/woman.htm Previous critiques of "I knew A Woman" by Richard Allen Blessing and others.

[Virgil]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poe...thke/woman.htm Previous critiques of "I knew A Woman" by Richard Allen Blessing and others.

Hey Quasi, that first article by Karl Malkoff:

Karl Malkoff

The first of the purely sensual poems, "I Knew a Woman,' seems, at first glance, completely innocent; but closer examination reveals that the poem's words, like its lady, move "more ways than one." Double meanings dominate the poem: the lady teaches "Turn, and Counter-turn, and Stand"; the protagonist comes "behind her for her pretty sake"; and love, which likes a gander, "adores a goose." Even lines easily passed over have hidden sexual connotations: ". . .what prodigious mowing we did make." "To mow," in Scots dialect, means to have sexual intercourse. And should there be any doubt as to Roethke's knowledge of this meaning, the reader need only turn to "Reply to a Lady Editor," the poet's tongue-in-cheek response to the editor of a woman's magazine who had clearly missed the poem's suggestiveness; Roethke there calls Dan Cupid a "braw laddie-buck," and advises the editor just to lean herself back if be should arrive.

From Theodore Roethke: An Introduction to the Poetry. Copyright � 1966 by Columbia University Press.

I had Malkoff as a professor in college for modern American poetry. Not sure I agree with all his thoughts here. I do agree there is a double entendre.

[Jozanny]

Yes, "In A Dark Time" is a superficially pleasing construct, but a piece I am least impressed with. I happen to like the real challenge of intricacy the reader is presented with in some of the other selections. Any poet can allude, or argue with Eliot, but by the early 60's one is starved for something authentic, even within dialectic engagement. "The Shape of Fire" speaks to me much better on that account, not so much obscure as a jigsaw, scarred yet strong.

[Virgil]

Yes, "In A Dark Time" is a superficially pleasing construct, but a piece I am least impressed with. I happen to like the real challenge of intricacy the reader is presented with in some of the other selections. Any poet can allude, or argue with Eliot, but by the early 60's one is starved for something authentic, even within dialectic engagement. "The Shape of Fire" speaks to me much better on that account, not so much obscure as a jigsaw, scarred yet strong.

I see your point about allusions, but what makes "In A DArk Time" really special to me is that the allusions are so smoothly integrated into the language that they are not just allusions. The poem works without knowledge of the allusions and the allusions only amplify the meaning. Sometimes with Eliot and Pound the allusions are clumsy and choppy to the flow. I agree. I don't have any sense of that here.

[Petrarch's Love]

Glad Virg. told me about -the discussion going on here. I haven't ever looked at Roethke in depth, so this sounds great. I may not have time to participate regularly, but I'll try to stop by and follow what's going on when I can. Love the choice of the next poem. What a piece of verse!

Quasi--Thanks for the link to Stanley Kunitz's memories of Roethke, and also for the recording of him reading. I enjoyed both a great deal.

I had Malkoff as a professor in college for modern American poetry. Not sure I agree with all his thoughts here. I do agree there is a double entendre.

Pretty neat to run into some thoughts from your former prof., Virg. What don't you agree with? He seemed to be on pretty sound ground. The only thing that surprised me about his blurb was the idea that someone could think this poem was "completely innocent" even at first glance. Maybe I've just read too much Donne for my own good. There's a very Elizabethan/Jacobean quality to this poem. He uses those double entendres just like the best of that period and, as one of the critics on the page Quasi linked pointed out, he also demonstrates that impeccable use of the caesura, and in a way that reminds me a bit of the early 17th century. His style in this one also reminds me vividly of Yeats for some reason, but I haven't yet taken the time to analyze exactly why. I don't actually know much of anything about Roethke's influences, so I don't know how strongly Yeats may have been on his radar, but there seems to be something very Yeatsian going on here. In general, though, what a perfect blend of wit, naughtiness, and--as least so I think--quite genuine love and affection. There's so much going on in there, but I'll sign off for now and see what others (many who may know more about the poet) have to say. I'll also go back and read the rest of the thread to see what I've missed.

[Virgil]

Glad Virg. told me about -the discussion going on here. I haven't ever looked at Roethke in depth, so this sounds great. I may not have time to participate regularly, but I'll try to stop by and follow what's going on when I can. Love the choice of the next poem. What a piece of verse!

Roethke is so under valued. I think he's top notch.

Pretty neat to run into some thoughts from your former prof., Virg. What don't you agree with? He seemed to be on pretty sound ground. The only thing that surprised me about his blurb was the idea that someone could think this poem was "completely innocent" even at first glance. Maybe I've just read too much Donne for my own good.

I guess Makoff is right. But I didn't think this was double entredre:

Double meanings dominate the poem: the lady teaches "Turn, and Counter-turn, and Stand"; the protagonist comes "behind her for her pretty sake"; and love, which likes a gander, "adores a goose."

Maybe I just have an innocent mind.

There's a very Elizabethan/Jacobean quality to this poem. He uses those double entendres just like the best of that period and, as one of the critics on the page Quasi linked pointed out, he also demonstrates that impeccable use of the caesura, and in a way that reminds me a bit of the early 17th century. His style in this one also reminds me vividly of Yeats for some reason, but I haven't yet taken the time to analyze exactly why. I don't actually know much of anything about Roethke's influences, so I don't know how strongly Yeats may have been on his radar, but there seems to be something very Yeatsian going on here. In general, though, what a perfect blend of wit, naughtiness, and--as least so I think--quite genuine love and affection. There's so much going on in there, but I'll sign off for now and see what others (many who may know more about the poet) have to say. I'll also go back and read the rest of the thread to see what I've missed.

Good point on the caesura Petrarch, yes Roethke consciously uses it. He is a craftsman of a poet.

[Dark Muse]

Maybe I just have an innocent mind.

Innocent mind? Haha who are you fooling? You forget, I have seen some of your coments in the DL thread.

[quasimodo1]

"How well her wishes went! She stroked my chin,/ She taught me Turn, and Counter-turn, and Stand," Roethke in these lines (8,9) uses a form related to the Pindaric ode, from the lyric poets highest form of praise and exhibiting the depth of his knowledge of literary forms.

[Virgil]

Innocent mind? Haha who are you fooling? You forget, I have seen some of your coments in the DL thread.

You're right.

"How well her wishes went! She stroked my chin,/ She taught me Turn, and Counter-turn, and Stand," Roethke in these lines (8,9) uses a form related to the Pindaric ode, from the lyric poets highest form of praise and exhibiting the depth of his knowledge of literary forms.

Yes. I guess it is double entendre. I just considered it a metaphor.

Now what a wonderful last stanza:

Let seed be grass, and grass turn into hay:
I’m martyr to a motion not my own;
What’s freedom for? To know eternity.
I swear she cast a shadow white as stone.
But who would count eternity in days?
These old bones live to learn her wanton ways:
(I measure time by how a body sways).

I do think that Petrarch is right in recalling 17th century poetry. I think the bringing up of eternity and wanton and time alludes to marvell's To His Coy Mistress. Only with the difference that the male narrator here is the one being seduced.

[Dark Muse]

I knew a woman, lovely in her bones,
When small birds sighed, she would sigh back at them;
Ah, when she moved, she moved more ways than one:
The shapes a bright container can contain!
Of her choice virtues only gods should speak,
Or English poets who grew up on Greek
(I'd have them sing in chorus, cheek to cheek.)

I just loved the first stazna of this poem

I knew a woman, lovely in her bones,

I think the first line is beautiful, and I think there is something almost primitive in the use of bones here. "lovely in the bones" almost sounds voodoesque to me. It makes me think of a Witchdoctor.

When small birds sighed, she would sigh back at them;

This is beautiful, and filled with sweet emotion. You can really feel a sense of tender love in these words.

Ah, when she moved, she moved more ways than one:

This is a very beautiful and senusal, it seems to embrace the beauty of feminity. When I read it, I cannot help but to think of the swaying of hips.

Of her choice virtues only gods should speak,
Or English poets who grew up on Greek

These lines I found to be interesting, though I am not entierly sure what to make of them.

[Virgil]

I think the first line is beautiful, and I think there is something almost primitive in the use of bones here. "lovely in the bones" almost sounds voodoesque to me. It makes me think of a Witchdoctor.

I just noticed it for the first time and I've been reading this poem for years, Roethke brings back the "bones" in the last stanza!

This is a very beautiful and senusal, it seems to embrace the beauty of feminity. When I read it, I cannot help but to think of the swaying of hips.

I think that's what he wants you to think.

Of her choice virtues only gods should speak,
Or English poets who grew up on Greek

These lines I found to be interesting, though I am not entierly sure what to make of them.

That connects back to Turn, counter turn and stand. Greek poetry.

[Dark Muse]

That connects back to Turn, counter turn and stand. Greek poetry.

Ahh ok, thanks for that. I wondered why those words were capatalized in the poem

[quasimodo1]

Saginaw News (MI){PUBLICATION2}


July 26, 2008
Page: 3E



Remembering Roethke

JANET I. MARTINEAU The Saginaw News
As celebrations continue marking the centennial year of the birth of Saginaw native and Pulitzer-winning poet Theodore Roethke, fans pause next week to remember his death 55 years later. On Friday, the Friends of Theodore Roethke Foundation hosts a Roethke Remembrance With Candlelight and Jazz event.


The schedule is as follows:

2 p.m., reading and discussion of his epic poem, "The Lost Son," at his boyhood home, 1805 Gratiot in Saginaw.

4 p.m. to 7 p.m., ongoing tours of the home/museum and sales of poetry books written by area authors.

8 p.m., candlelight procession to Roethke's grave, reading of "The Lost Son" and three works by contemporary Saginaw poets: "Love Poem for Theodore Roethke, Oakwood Cemetery, 1908?1963" by Maxine Harris, "The Ghost on Gratiot" by Carol Lopez and "Shadow in the Glass House" by Marion Tincknell.

Meet at the entrance of Oakwood Cemetery, Gratiot at Midland roads.

9 p.m. to 11 p.m., dinner at Spencer's M-46, 5530 Gratiot, with performance by Brush Street, a jazz ensemble. Roethke was a jazz fan.

Participants will order from the menu and the restaurant will donate 10 percent to the Theodore Roethke Home Museum.

Roethke was born in Saginaw on May, 25, 1908, and died in Seattle, Wash., on Aug. 1, 1963, of a heart attack. He is an Arthur Hill High School graduate, and at the time of his death was a professor at the University of Washington in Seattle.

Admission to all the events is free.

Judges picked, slam added

Meanwhile, plans continue at Saginaw Valley State University for the awarding of the 11th Triennial Theodore Roethke Memorial Poetry Prize in November.

Frank Bidart, who won the $3,000 prize in 1998, has selected the three judges who will choose the 2008 winner by mid-September. As set up in 1968, the prize winner is chosen by the three judges from worthy American writers they peruse on their own and not from solicited entries or nominations.

The judges are:

* Lloyd Schwartz, a Pulitzer-winning classical music critic and poet and commentator on National Public Radio's "Fresh Air." This summer the Tanglewood Music Festival in Massachusetts is setting some of his poems to music. Schwartz teaches English at the University of Massachusetts in Boston.

* Campbell McGrath, a historian, comedian, storyteller and poet who teaches creative writing at Florida International University in Miami. He has won numerous prizes and grants, among them a Guggenheim Fellowship and a MacArthur Fellowship.

* Peg Boyers, a poet and creative writing teacher at Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs, New York, and the executive editor of the college's quarterly literary magazine "Salmagundi." Her recent book "Honey With Tobacco" contains autobiographical poems exploring her Cuban American experience and a childhood marked by travel and the tropics.

On Tuesday, Nov. 11, SVSU will host a 6 p.m. dinner and a 7:15 p.m. program during which the winner will read from his or her works. Both the dinner and the program are open to the public.

And in honor of the centennial year, SVSU has placed ads in Poetry magazine and on the Academy of American Poets Web newsletter at poets.org inviting the nation to the event.

Roethke's widow, Beatrice Roethke Lushington, also will attend the event.

SVSU is planning several other activities surrounding the awarding of the prize.

At 7 p.m. Saturday, Nov. 8, its Marshall M. Fredericks Sculpture Museum will turn one of its classrooms into a coffee house atmosphere for a free poetry slam - with the winner selected by the audience.

Any and all poets may participate by reading their works. The winning poem will appear in the SVSU Cardinal Sins literary magazine.

Other events between the slam and the award evening are a "Roethke Haunts" tour featuring his boyhood home, grave, the Tittabawassee River (which inspired many of his poems) and a favorite watering hole in Old Saginaw City. Also planned is a program featuring New York poet Bill Heyen, a Roethke fan, and a performance of "Reveling in Roethke" by the River Junction Poets of Saginaw.

Copyright, 2008, The Saginaw News. All Rights Reserved. Used by NewsBank with Permission.

[Dark Muse]

How well her wishes went! She stroked my chin,
She taught me Turn, and Counter-turn, and stand;
She taught me Touch, that undulant white skin:
I nibbled meekly from her proffered hand;
She was the sickle; I, poor I, the rake,
Coming behind her for her pretty sake
(But what prodigious mowing did we make.)

A lot of this stanza has already been discussed previously. I have to agree that I think it is filled with double entendre. I think it is full of sensulaity.

She taught me Touch, that undulant white skin

This is a beautiful line

She was the sickle; I, poor I, the rake,

I found this line to be currious, as not completely certain of what was implied here and how this symbology fits into the rest of the poem and the other ideas which were expressed within.

[Virgil]

And the sickle, rake. and mowing connects nicely with the grass and hay of the last stanza.