D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Yes, you are correct that the Baker only asked Hilda how her sister was. He did not say anything of the child.

Though we are not to know how things were between the two of them. I do think that it is an important part of the story that he is being left out of the Christening. Though I can see where Virgil is coming from, if you look at the way the father is in the house is being treated by the women, the Baker in a way is just another example of a father being degraded, or having his roll "lessened" by women. He is being excluded from the life of the child. The mother is being given more importance over him in this way.

I think this story does reflect the ideas of the woman's positioning for power or authority over men and the effects in which the struggle has upon family life, and the household at large.

The women are trying to rule the roose here, and in a way express the fact that they haven't any real need for the men in thier lives, in spite of the fact that other than Hilda, the men are the ones who are earning the money.

[Virgil]

If Hilda met up with the baker in the beginning, it could just be a way of introducing him into the story and later revealing his significance;

What significance would that be? If his significance were only to have jilted Emma, why not just say that and never have him appear at all?

afterall, if he is the father, he is being quite left out of the Christening, isn't he? He is left out of the baby's life altogether apparently. I don't believe he asked anything about the child; he only asked how Emma was; am I correct?

Yes that is correct, but it strikes me that he is bitter.

I think Lawrence only hints at the fact, that they got together. He never even tells us how long - was it just a one night stand or a short term thing, even longer term? I don't think L cared that we knew that part of the story.

It's rather vague, which was my point earlier. It's very strange that a story about Christening a bastard child gives nothing about the relationship of the parents.

Just because the two older sisters are strong willed, what makes you convinced the younger one is, as well? Perhaps she is not strong willed and gave into the father's advances? I have two sisters and know this to be true: sisters can be quite different in personality.

Wasn't it Emma who excoriated her father? And not only that she physically "pushes him into his chair." She's strong willed. I think there is evidence that all three are strong willed.

Christening is a major event for many and signifies a lot of things connected with emotions and beliefs.

Christening is the central event of the story; we haven't gotten to the religious themes yet.

Though we are not to know how things were between the two of them. I do think that it is an important part of the story that he is being left out of the Christening. Though I can see where Virgil is coming from, if you look at the way the father is in the house is being treated by the women, the Baker in a way is just another example of a father being degraded, or having his roll "lessened" by women. He is being excluded from the life of the child. The mother is being given more importance over him in this way.

I think this story does reflect the ideas of the woman's positioning for power or authority over men and the effects in which the struggle has upon family life, and the household at large.

The women are trying to rule the roose here, and in a way express the fact that they haven't any real need for the men in thier lives, in spite of the fact that other than Hilda, the men are the ones who are earning the money.

Exactly!! That's why I must make the assumption that Emma left the baker. I guess if you guys don't accept that, then I understand. It's not clear. But to me the story doesn't hold together if I don't make that assumption.

[Janine]

What significance would that be? If his significance were only to have jilted Emma, why not just say that and never have him appear at all?

Virgil,The significance I was referring to was just the fact of him being the father, that was all and also perhaps the fact that he was the baker of the town and so was quite familiar already to Hilda; this I would assume since in those day there might be only one baker in a small town. Usually one becomes kind of familar or friendly with a tradesmen such as the local baker.

Yes that is correct, but it strikes me that he is bitter.

I didn't say he couldn't be bitter. I would have to re-read that part to get that sense. I don't recall it that well now - the scene between them. I will try and re-read that tonight. I will probably end up reading the whole story again.

It's rather vague, which was my point earlier. It's very strange that a story about Christening a bastard child gives nothing about the relationship of the parents.

Why? It is merely a short story, not a novel.

Wasn't it Emma who excoriated her father? And not only that she physically "pushes him into his chair." She's strong willed. I think there is evidence that all three are strong willed.

I don't know...now you have me confused. I thought it was the other sister. I will have to re-read the story I suppose, like I said. I will do it for your benefit, Virgil.

Christening is the central event of the story; we haven't gotten to the religious themes yet.

Will we get to them - the religious themes?

Exactly!! That's why I must make the assumption that Emma left the baker. I guess if you guys don't accept that, then I understand. It's not clear. But to me the story doesn't hold together if I don't make that assumption.

Well, I still can't fully make that assumption, but if you want to, then go ahead. Maybe you think that way, due to knowledge of other works of Lawrence's, such as your favorite novel - "The Rainbow"...I only watched the film version recently, but read the book years back; but I can see how the women were more prominent and willful, especially the will of Ursula towards two men in her life.

I don't quite get what you are driving at when you make the statement "The story doesn't hold together if I don't make that assumption." Can you explain further? I don't see, as you do perhaps, that all things must hold together in life...I don't think things can be so neatly organised and so logical....so why must it be true in this short story?

[Dark Muse]

I don't know...now you have me confused. I thought it was the other sister. I will have to re-read the story I suppose, like I said. I will do it for your benefit, Virgil.

Her father bent down nevertheless to clear up the mess he had made, saying, articulating his words loosely and slavering in his speach:

"The lousy bit of a thing, it slipped between my fingers like a fish."

As he spoke he went tilting towards the fire. The dark browned woman cried out: he put his hand on the hot stove to save himself: Emma swung round and dragged him off.

"Didn't I tell you!" she cried roughly. "Now you have burnt yourself?"

She held tight hold of the big man, and pushed him into his chair.

I don't quite get what you are driving at when you make the statement "The story doesn't hold together if I don't make that assumption." Can you explain further? I don't see, as you do perhaps, that all things must hold together in life...I don't think things can be so neatly organised and so logical....so why must it be true in this short story?

Though I myself will still not make an assumption one way or the other, as I think it can still go either way, I do understand what Virgil is trying to get at. The focus of the story is about the group of these willful women whom have or are struggling to take over the household and usurp power from the men. If Emma rejected the rather, that would help to further emphasize that portion of the story and reflect the view point about the consequences of women trying to take power away from men, and degrading men.

But if Emma was rejected by the rather, than that piece of the story would not really fit in. And was Virgil had stated earlier, it would just be a rather common occurrence. Less common would be a woman taking initiative to leave the father.

And a point is made of portraying each of these women as being willfully independent in someway or another.

[Virgil]

Good summary Dark Muse. I think we can now move on.

[Janine]

I will post more text tomorrow. We have to wrap up this story soon...I do want that break for October, and I don't want to end this story midway through. I need a full month's break and from the Chekhov, as well. It will give us all time to revamp and get a breather. I can catch up with other threads I have been neglecting, such as Shakespeare and "The Idiot".

[Janine]

Here is the next part of the text:

Miss Bertha rose and went to the little kitchen, returning with water in a china bowl. She placed it there among the tea-things.

"Well, we're all ready," said the old man, and the clergyman began to read the service. Miss Bertha was godmother, the two men godfathers. The old man sat with bent head. The scene became impressive. At last Miss Bertha took the child and put it in the arms of the clergyman. He, big and ugly, shone with a kind of unreal love. He had never mixed with life, and women were all unliving, Biblical things to him. When he asked for the name, the old man lifted his head fiercely. "Joseph William, after me," he said, almost out of breath.

"Joseph William, I baptize thee. . . ." resounded the strange, full, chanting voice of the clergyman. The baby was quite still.

"Let us pray!" It came with relief to them all. They knelt before their chairs, all but the young mother, who bent and hid herself over her baby. The clergyman began his hesitating, struggling prayer.

Just then heavy footsteps were heard coming up the path, ceasing at the window. The young mother, glancing up, saw her brother, black in his pit dirt, grinning in through the panes. His red mouth curved in a sneer; his fair hair shone above his blackened skin. He caught the eye of his sister and grinned. Then his black face disappeared. He had gone on into the kitchen. The girl with the child sat still and anger filled her heart. She herself hated now the praying clergyman and the whole emotional business; she hated her brother bitterly. In anger and bondage she sat and listened.

[Virgil]

I found the little side scene with the brother somewhat distracting. This story seems to have a lot going on, perhaps too much. What's the point of the brother?

Just then heavy footsteps were heard coming up the path, ceasing at the window. The young mother, glancing up, saw her brother, black in his pit dirt, grinning in through the panes. His red mouth curved in a sneer; his fair hair shone above his blackened skin. He caught the eye of his sister and grinned. Then his black face disappeared. He had gone on into the kitchen. The girl with the child sat still and anger filled her heart. She herself hated now the praying clergyman and the whole emotional business; she hated her brother bitterly. In anger and bondage she sat and listened.

I found the last sentence interesting. Who is she angry with, the brother or the preacher? Perhaps both, but why the brother? It's significant that she fees bondage while the preacher is preaching.

[Dark Muse]

"Well, we're all ready," said the old man, and the clergyman began to read the service. Miss Bertha was godmother, the two men godfathers.

I found this a bit currious, why are both men godfathers? Isn't usually just a godmother and a godfather.

I found the last sentence interesting. Who is she angry with, the brother or the preacher? Perhaps both, but why the brother? It's significant that she fees bondage while the preacher is preaching.

Sense it states that she hates them both, than my guess would be she is angery at them both, and well being she seems to be angry at everyone and everything.

Though it is hard to say just way she is angry, it is clear the brother is a disruptiive pressence within the household which could be way she feels that way toward him. There is animosity between the brohter and the other members of the house.

It is hard to say exzactly why she would be angry with the preacher, other than the fact that he serves as a further reminder to her of her situation in general. Perhaps she does not like being more or less the focus of attention, though the Christining is about the child, as the child's mother she would be tied in and well it puts the shameful event sort of in the spotlight.

[Virgil]

I found this a bit currious, why are both men godfathers? Isn't usually just a godmother and a godfather.

Not necessarily. You can have more than one. But which two men is Lawrence alluding to? The only men in the room are Emma's father and the preacher. Why would the preacher be a godfather? He's a stranger, isn't he?

[Dark Muse]

I just presumed it ment the brother even though he was not acutally in the house yet. Though it is a bit strange the way it is wordered. And I do not see why the Preacher would be a Godfather.

[Janine]

In "Sons and Lovers" Paul's mother asked her preacher to be the godfather to Paul; however, they did seem to be friendly and know each other, even before Paul was born. I had assumed it was the son and the father; but was the son present when that was stated or was he in the actual room, or just in the background in the kitchen, chiding his sisters with his 'bakersman' ditty?

[Dark Muse]

When they first began the borther had not even entered the house yet. Emma saw him through the window as he began to come up the path to the house.

Just then heavy footsteps were heard coming up the path, ceasing at the window. The young mother, glancing up, saw her brother, black in his pit dirt, grinning in through the panes

[Janine]

Maybe they did mean the pastor then.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, though it seems odd they would include the pastor, as they do not seem to know him that well. Why not just have the father as the godfather