D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Alexei]

Dark Muse, I completely agree with you.

You know I have a hard time figuring out Emma. She is sulky and doesn't say much. Obviously she is inexperienced in raising the child and we do know that her decision to not acknowledge the father is the center of the story. But there is nothing else, at least that I remember.

I can't see Emma feeling ashamed or may be a bit guilty for the way her actions result on the whole family. I find this interesting. Especially, after we know that Hilda is ashamed. I think that somehow, Emma is the one that has already realised the whole situation - it seems like she is already beyond this point when you are still trying to figure out what exactly is happening and it is going to happen and she has already been reconciled with the thought. To me it seems like she is absolutely sure her life is ruined by the child and she can't do anything about it, it results in this bitter disappointment.

[Virgil]

Dark Muse, I completely agree with you.



I can't see Emma feeling ashamed or may be a bit guilty for the way her actions result on the whole family. I find this interesting. Especially, after we know that Hilda is ashamed. I think that somehow, Emma is the one that has already realised the whole situation - it seems like she is already beyond this point when you are still trying to figure out what exactly is happening and it is going to happen and she has already been reconciled with the thought. To me it seems like she is absolutely sure her life is ruined by the child and she can't do anything about it, it results in this bitter disappointment.

I remember her blushing at least once in the story, if not more. But she does seem that other than a superficial embarressment, she does not seem to care about it. Remember it was her decision to disregard the father.

[Dark Muse]

I remember her blushing at least once in the story, if not more. But she does seem that other than a superficial embarressment, she does not seem to care about it. Remember it was her decision to disregard the father.

She blushes when the clegryman comes in and her breast is exposed becasue she is nursing the child.

And it said early in the story, that when she looked at the child she hated it becasue she saw it as a symbol

[Janine]

Dark Muse, I completely agree with you.



I can't see Emma feeling ashamed or may be a bit guilty for the way her actions result on the whole family. I find this interesting. Especially, after we know that Hilda is ashamed. I think that somehow, Emma is the one that has already realised the whole situation - it seems like she is already beyond this point when you are still trying to figure out what exactly is happening and it is going to happen and she has already been reconciled with the thought. To me it seems like she is absolutely sure her life is ruined by the child and she can't do anything about it, it results in this bitter disappointment.

Not sure what you are saying here, Alexei when you say 'can't see Emma feeling ashamed....' did you mean can't or can?
Ohterwise I think you are right - Emma is resigned and accepts her situtation as a woman and feeling her life is now ruined or over. Perhaps she has not exactly bonded entirely with the child; maybe she will and maybe she always will feel resentment and distance from her own child, who knows?

As far as her blushing when exposing her breast to the clergyman, I would think that would pretty much be natural for most woman even today. I know my daughter-in-law was modest about that. Some women are more open about nursing and some are not.

[Virgil]

She blushes when the clegryman comes in and her breast is exposed becasue she is nursing the child.

And it said early in the story, that when she looked at the child she hated it becasue she saw it as a symbol

As far as her blushing when exposing her breast to the clergyman, I would think that would pretty much be natural for most woman even today. I know my daughter-in-law was modest about that. Some women are more open about nursing and some are not.

Yes, exposing a breast would be embarressing. If that is the only reason she blushes, then Alexei is probably right, she does not feel ashamed over her situation. And that would be significant.

[Dark Muse]

Here is what is says

Then he turned to the young mother, who flushed sullenly becasue her dishonoured breast was uncovered.

"How are YOU?" he asked, very softly and gently, as if she were ill and he were mindful of her.

"I'm all right" she replied, awkwardly taking his hand without rising, hiding her face and the anger that rose in her."

[Janine]

Two significant words in that passage Dark Muse - 'dishonoured' in reference to her uncovered breast....and 'anger' ...that rose up in her.

I do feel with the inclusion of these two words they are meant to be more significant than mere embarrassment. I think she does feel dishonored and is now quite angry about her current situtation - woman who had children out of wedlock back then were pretty much disgraced. What would be next for her life? I guess the woman feels quite hopeless now.

[Virgil]

Two significant words in that passage Dark Muse - 'dishonoured' in reference to her uncovered breast....and 'anger' ...that rose up in her.

I do feel with the inclusion of these two words they are meant to be more significant than mere embarrassment. I think she does feel dishonored and is now quite angry about her current situtation - woman who had children out of wedlock back then were pretty much disgraced. What would be next for her life? I guess the woman feels quite hopeless now.

I'm not sure I agree with that Janine. She feels embarressed over her exposed breast, yet she feels nothing about her situation. I may be wrong but I think Lawrence by emphasizing an embarressment over her breast is bringing to attention that she doesn't quite care about her personal situation. Like I said I may be wrong.

[Dark Muse]

I do think the word "dishonored" was put thier intentionally, and though she may feel embrassed about being exposed, I think more is meant to it than that. As well, I do not think she would truly be angery, if she was only embrassed about being caught nursing.

And if she did not feel any sense of shame, then why early does it say:

She hated it when she looked at it and saw it as a symbol.

If she did not feel any sense of shame, than I do not think she would view the baby as a hateful symbol.

[Janine]

On this one Virgil, I would have to agree with Dark Muse's thinking. I think Alexei agrees as well, but not sure.

[Virgil]

I do think the word "dishonored" was put thier intentionally, and though she may feel embrassed about being exposed, I think more is meant to it than that.

Wel, that goes for both our readings. I agree with that. More is meant by it.

And if she did not feel any sense of shame, then why early does it say:



If she did not feel any sense of shame, than I do not think she would view the baby as a hateful symbol.

Yes hateful symbol, but why is that shame for her situation? She created her situation.

Like I said above, I don't really understand Emma. You guys may be right about this, but it's ambiguous.

[Dark Muse]

I do agree, and have mentioned earlier in one of my posts that she does bear responsablity for her situation to some degree, but, I think by the way others might look at her and judge her, she could still feel shame about having a child out of wedlock, even if she choose to leave the father, we do not know what happend between them. She is not completely innocent, but that does not mean she cannot feel shamed by what happend.

[Virgil]

I do agree, and have mentioned earlier in one of my posts that she does bear responsablity for her situation to some degree, but, I think by the way others might look at her and judge her, she could still feel shame about having a child out of wedlock, even if she choose to leave the father, we do not know what happend between them. She is not completely innocent, but that does not mean she cannot feel shamed by what happend.

I agree that she can feel shame and I would expect her to, but I just didn't see it. Perhaps I should read it again and concentrate on Emma.

[Alexei]

Not sure what you are saying here, Alexei when you say 'can't see Emma feeling ashamed....' did you mean can't or can?
Ohterwise I think you are right - Emma is resigned and accepts her situtation as a woman and feeling her life is now ruined or over. Perhaps she has not exactly bonded entirely with the child; maybe she will and maybe she always will feel resentment and distance from her own child, who knows?

Yes, Janine, I meant "can't" I agree with what you've said. I am sorry about the previous post, but I haven't had the chance to practice my English for a while so I'll probably make more mistakes than usual for a week or two, till I a get used to it again

Two significant words in that passage Dark Muse - 'dishonoured' in reference to her uncovered breast....and 'anger' ...that rose up in her.

I do feel with the inclusion of these two words they are meant to be more significant than mere embarrassment. I think she does feel dishonored and is now quite angry about her current situtation - woman who had children out of wedlock back then were pretty much disgraced. What would be next for her life? I guess the woman feels quite hopeless now.

That's what I think too. That's why I think she isn't ashamed. In my opinion she beyond that point now. I suppose there was some shame, but now it is replaced by anger and disappointment.

[Dark Muse]

To me feelings of anger and dissapointment are linked with feeling shame, for it is a sign she has not truely "moved one" or "made peace" with what happend. If she was really past that point than she would not be sulky with the baby, she would not longer be connected to such feelings of resenement if she had got over her feelings of shame about what happend.

I do not think she would still be angry about it if she was free from all feelings of shame. I think her anger is drawn from the shame.