June / Lawrence Reading: 'Women in Love'

[Virgil]

Glad to have contributed something useful!

The 'pornography' question is huge and probably not to be held within the bounds of this thread. But I'd just respond that for me the sudden cessation of the graphic recording of reality which occurs whenever sex happens strikes me as inconsistent, a break in the otherwise seamless recording of reality, a sudden evasion of objective reality, and I suspect this rupturing irritated Lawrence, perhaps directly causing him to leave the camera running for Lady C. Not that he wanted to show sex per se - especially if he disliked 'porn' - rather that he had no choice if he wanted to attain a seamless sense of reality.

Well, all literature has breaks in recording. The author chooses to fully render some things and summarize others. If the actual sex has nothing to do with the themes, then the author has crossed over into pornography. When the sex is integral to the themes, then the author needs to make a decision. Suggestiveness in deference to decorum is not necessarily a bad thing. Except for Lady Chatterly Lawrence is not really all that sexually explicit. Certainly less so than Joyce in Ulysses. In many respects Lawrence is quite prude. One can even argue that the explicitedness of Lady Chatterly was done for commercial purposes. But nonetheless it is still integral to the themes and works out well in my opinion.

[Janine]

Originally Posted by Carpalim

Glad to have contributed something useful!

The 'pornography' question is huge and probably not to be held within the bounds of this thread. But I'd just respond that for me the sudden cessation of the graphic recording of reality which occurs whenever sex happens strikes me as inconsistent, a break in the otherwise seamless recording of reality, a sudden evasion of objective reality, and I suspect this rupturing irritated Lawrence, perhaps directly causing him to leave the camera running for Lady C. Not that he wanted to show sex per se - especially if he disliked 'porn' - rather that he had no choice if he wanted to attain a seamless sense of reality.

Carpalim, Anyone who comes in here and contributes is more than welcome. I like it when people show interest in Lawrence, since I am such a big fan of the author myself. Even though this discussion of the novel took place months ago, or was it a year, Virgil (?), I am quite pleased to see the thread continuing with added commentary. I would like to see all threads on serious discussions continue like this. By all means, Carpalim, do add more comments and I or Virgil will try to address them in the coming days, weeks.

You may not know this, but Lawrence wrote a very prominent essay on his thoughts concerning pornography. I have so many Lawrence books and not sure which one it is in, at this moment or I would look it up now; so let me look that up for you later on and get back to you. You might get lucky and find the essay online. I will check that out and see if I come up with it tonight. I do know that Lawrence thought that 'if sex was in the 'head' that made it pornographic' - at least that was his view. I will also find exact quotes. I think the essay would better help you understand where Lawrence was 'coming from' about revealing the sexual act blantantly in his work. Also, one must be aware that very often his publishers cut texts and yes, indeed, very often Lawrence was very angry about his work being butchered - who wouldn't be? Some of the original texts have resurfaced now and scholars of Lawrence are working hard to have them become public. Many of these original versions are now publishede and attainable. In fact Lawrence actually wrote three distinct version of LCL. In "Lady Chatterly's Lover", I don't quite agree with Virgil about this novel, being more sexually explicit, because of the commercial factor. I think by this point in Lawrence's late life, he just did not care anymore what people thought and about who was going to censor him; he had become fearless and reckless in a way. This is why he sought finally to have this book published and payed for outside the bonds of the conventional publishing world; instead independently - in fact, Lawrence, himself had it financed out of his own pocket. I therefore, do not see it as a money-making venture - Lawrence was not like that at all. He disliked capitalism. He did not care much about things and could have lived well and high, but he choose always not to - he took the more 'untraveled' road. In someways' by standing up to publishers and doing his 'own thing', towards the end, he ended up sabataging himself; but I do not think he was ever in true need of food or the essentials in life and he was able to make enough money to travel the world throughout his life; although he was never extravagant in anyway. I have read 4 biographies by now, and much research on the author, so I know this to be a fact. He wasn't down and out poor, but he was far from rich. In fact, I think that publishing "Lady Chatterly" set him back some. The book was banned or rejected in several countries at first; there was even a big court battle in England - the famous obesity trial - one can read all about it and who stood up for Lawrence in the end. Now LCL best seller, right? Truly ironic. For the times, it was quite a scandalise book but by today's standards no one would even raise an eyelid.

Well, all literature has breaks in recording. The author chooses to fully render some things and summarize others. If the actual sex has nothing to do with the themes, then the author has crossed over into pornography. When the sex is integral to the themes, then the author needs to make a decision. Suggestiveness in deference to decorum is not necessarily a bad thing. Except for Lady Chatterly Lawrence is not really all that sexually explicit. Certainly less so than Joyce in Ulysses. In many respects Lawrence is quite prude. One can even argue that the explicitedness of Lady Chatterly was done for commercial purposes. But nonetheless it is still integral to the themes and works out well in my opinion.

Virgil, That is true, about literature often breaking in the recording. I think sometimes the author does it purposely, for a certain effect. Often 'suggestion' is much more effective than spelling out the intimate details. I don't think that Lawrence avoided 'sex' in the novels one bit. He used 'sensuality' and connected the natural elements in nature and the animal kingdom with the human-being. Look at the scene in WIL, when Birkin runs out of the house into the fields or woods, after Hermoine hits him in the head. He fleas from her falsity and strips naked and is one with the natural world again - undergoing a sort of cleansing of his body and soul. The naked wrestling scene may not be 'sexual' in nature, but it certainly was the epitomy of the 'sensual' and it was so well written and imagined. The catkin scene is a good one, and shows the way in which Lawrence tied all of nature in with man. I happen to love that scene, since it also shows the difference in the two women's thinking and later actions.

[Carpalim]

Yes, Virgil, you're right that an author can't record everything, and must be selective in what he shows. But what I meant was the break in the tone, the change in focus, whenever the sex crops up. Lawrence, who has throughout the novel maintained his amazing facility for recording what is entering the character's souls through their eyes, ears, noses and fingers, must artificially shut down this direct sensory intake whenever the characters 'embrace'. Birkin, on seeing the secrets of Ursula's body would have a reaction. Surely the reaction of a character like Birkin to such a thing would be of profound interest, and thoroughly relevant to the aim of rendering the three-dimensional relationship between him and Ursula. This is what he gave us in 'Lady Chatterley's Lover'. When the clothes came off, the sensory intake of the lovers kept running, we kept looking through their eyes at what they were seeing. As a result the depiction of the relationship became so fully-rounded it attained an almost unbearable truthfulness. For instance, when Lady C considers how ridiculous ultimately the movement of her lover's body is. A reaction from Gudrun to Gerald on the same level of directness would bring not pornography but simply more truth.

I'm not criticising WIL here - the relationships are obviously beautifully and masterfully rendered, including the coming-togethers. I just think it could have been even better if it had that extra dimension which graces Lady C.

If Lawrence was more explicit in LCL for commercial reasons, I'm greatly surprised, though he is too much of an artist to let the sex be anything other than a vital part of his statement.

Janine, I'd love to read L's views on 'pornography'. I must have a look for it.

I can't resist any more. Just a general word on the dreaded 'p' word. To my mind, any writing which is an honest meditation on what it is to possess a sexual organ is to be welcomed as a valid exploration into one aspect of the profundity we call the human condition, no matter how frank the vision. Such an endeavour should not concern itself with whether the public is going to be offended or 'thrilled'. Though I'd say that if the reader is thrilled as a side effect, then... well, what's the harm? A little more joy has been brought into the world!

[Janine]

Carpalim,

If Lawrence was more explicit in LCL for commercial reasons, I'm greatly surprised, though he is too much of an artist to let the sex be anything other than a vital part of his statement.

Sorry to jump in here like this, but did you see my post above? I don't think he did publish the book for commercial gain; that has been well documented. Also, I think that had Lawrence written WIL, at the same time in his life, that he wrote LCL, he may very well have been more sexually and honestly expressive/explicit about the characters. I don't think when he wrote WIL, he would have gotten away with it. His prior book "The Rainbow" was banned, so he was not about to throw all caution to the wind at this point in his career, or he would end up having another banned book on his hand, which would surely mean total ruin. I don't think any publisher would have published a book such as LCL in the early year that he wrote WIL.

[Carpalim]

Janine, yes, I did see your post; it came in as I was replying to Virgil's points. I do take on board your interesting info about the circumstances of LCL's publication. I come to the thread knowing very little about L's biography and am most grateful for what I've learned from your posts.

I'm on the final chapter now, so I'll post something when I've finished.

[Janine]

Janine, yes, I did see your post; it came in as I was replying to Virgil's points. I do take on board your interesting info about the circumstances of LCL's publication. I come to the thread knowing very little about L's biography and am most grateful for what I've learned from your posts.

I'm on the final chapter now, so I'll post something when I've finished.

Oh thank you; glad to help out in any way. Enjoy the ending of the novel. I will be anxious to know what you think of it. I actually have read WIL twice and thanks to a good friend, listened to the MP3 audiofile once and it is still in my player so I plan another listening to. I do think WIL is my favorite book, don't you?...a little obessive on my part...

[Carpalim]

Thanks, I will enjoy it! And yes, I do think WIL is your favourite book! But there's one other tiny matter regarding WIL I'd just like to mention now, which is: is there an error in the manuscript? Because in my edition, there is a glaring contradiction between the first desciption of Halliday and the second, which follows about two pages later. Initially he's described as 'swarthy' and 'slender' with 'long, solid black hair'. Then he is 'heavy' and 'fair'. Is this so in your editions?

[Janine]

Thanks, I will enjoy it! And yes, I do think WIL is your favourite book! But there's one other tiny matter regarding WIL I'd just like to mention now, which is: is there an error in the manuscript? Because in my edition, there is a glaring contradiction between the first desciption of Halliday and the second, which follows about two pages later. Initially he's described as 'swarthy' and 'slender' with 'long, solid black hair'. Then he is 'heavy' and 'fair'. Is this so in your editions?

Gee, you are observant; I have never noticed that. I will have to check the text more closely now...how curious. Do you know which chapter Halliday was introduced into the story? Then he appears later on, right? Maybe by fair he mean his skintone and maybe he gained weight...haha... really, I am just kidding. I will have to check that out and get back to you. I tend to get all those characters in that group of friends confused with each other.

I should mention this to you now. We have been planning on reading "The Rainbow" sometime in the near future. We have a number of members interested in discussing it. I have read the book years ago but hardly recall much about it now, although I cheated and watched some episodes from a BBC mini-series on Youtube. I am definitely going to reread the novel; in fact I began it a month or so ago, but then put it asside since I was in the transistion of switching to a new PC. So Carpalim, if you have read the novel or desire to, I hope you can join in our discussion when the time comes. In actuality, the novel is the prequel to WIL, although it is very conceivable to read them out of sequence - I know I did orginally. "The Rainbow" features Ursula - pre-WIL, a sort of coming of age novel.

Presently, and most likely tonight, I will be formally posting the introduction to the Lawrence short story, so you may wish to check that out. I already mentioned the name of the story so some could get started reading it. It is under 10 pages long and not too demanding at this late date of this month. Discussion should be great fun with a few new participants. Glad to have you abroad.

[Carpalim]

Halliday first appears in the London bar chapter 'Creme de Menthe'. The two contradictory descriptions take place in that chapter within two pages of each other.

I'd love to read 'The Rainbow' next, though I'm going to have a hard time getting a copy. I live in Greece whose bookshops never carry a full range of classic literature in English (though they carry some, hence my acquisition of WIL). I'll have a look though...

[Janine]

Halliday first appears in the London bar chapter 'Creme de Menthe'. The two contradictory descriptions take place in that chapter within two pages of each other.

Oh, good...I will check that chapter out tonight. This is funny, you must also be good at finding discrepencies in movies/films. I think I found one in the mini-series "Shackleton". I have watched the survival/adventure film countless times and when they are in the life boats somehow a few characters switch boats. I keep watching that part to see if I am correct but I think I am. Some people find things like this in all kinds of films and I guess books also - how funny!

I'd love to read 'The Rainbow' next, though I'm going to have a hard time getting a copy. I live in Greece whose bookshops never carry a full range of classic literature in English (though they carry some, hence my acquisition of WIL). I'll have a look though...

Oh good, Carpalim, it would be great to have you join in the discussion. Well, the rate we are going on here, or rather me, I think you still have time to track a copy down. Can you buy on Amazon over there? I know I have seen inexpensive copies on Amazon. In fact recently I purchase a new copy on there myself; I must have lost my old copy or borrowed the book from my library on first reading - too long ago; I don't remember.
Anyway, I always feel so badly when people can't get the English books they desire to read in other countries; in the US you can find those at any bookstore and online, and they are not expensive. Well, scout around for it and it could even be in a book collection of his works. Good luck to you, C.
The other person interested in discussing "The Rainbow" lives in Greece, also. I will ask her where she got her book.

[Remarkable]

I found Women in Love a very fine book in style but strange in thought.It is perhaps bold for the period in which it was written and,despite everything,I think it's a great achievement to be able to representate different types of human character by making them also felt by the reader.However,it woke in me the same feelings as Madame Bovary.I got irritated by the passivity of some,or by the meaningless of life in some others.I am still wondering about it,though.It's a book that deserves much consideration and takes time not only to read but also to chew...

[Janine]

I found Women in Love a very fine book in style but strange in thought.It is perhaps bold for the period in which it was written and,despite everything,I think it's a great achievement to be able to representate different types of human character by making them also felt by the reader.However,it woke in me the same feelings as Madame Bovary.I got irritated by the passivity of some,or by the meaningless of life in some others.I am still wondering about it,though.It's a book that deserves much consideration and takes time not only to read but also to chew...

Hi Remarkable - glad you are considering all aspects of this book. This is one of my favorite Lawrence novels. I have read it twice and I am on my second listening of the audiofiles. I also know much about the background and intentions of the author in putting forth this novel - one he considered to be his very best.

Yes, the passivity and the meaninglessness of life are there but one does react to that and I believe that Lawrence intended that to be his position. People in real life are passive and they have their issues. This book explores them - it is a journey one takes with Lawrence through the develpment of this great work. It is quite different than other books and that is one reason that Lawrence's own generation did not always 'get' just what he was driving at. For instance, even though this book shows nothing about war, the book does have the undertones of a war being fought in Europe. Lawrence did this mainly through his characters.

I know the more I read or listen to this novel the more, I get out of it. It is a very intricate and complex book. If you care to look back on the discussion you will see just how complex...it was one of the best discussion here on this forum and putting our heads together and referring to much outside research made me fully appreciate the depths of this book.

[manders7890]

I just wanted to address the comment about the change in Halliday's appearance. Before the publication of this book, Lawrence was nearly sued by a friend (wish i could remember his name). The appearance and personality of Halliday was curiously similar to that of this old friend. To protect his hard earned income and royalties on the book, and in accordance with his publisher's wishes, he changed the appearance from black hair to blond. He was still sued and the man took part of his earnings for the book. Questions still arise as to whether or not he was only making a deal of it for monetary gain. The character Pussum was also inspired by the friend's wife. The character Hermione was also said to be based on a woman named Lady Ottoline Morrell, she did not sue him for libel, but the case was settled out of court. One more thing- If you all remember the part in the book when Gudrun and Gerald were in a restaurant and met Pussum, Halliday and their gang... this actually happened in Lawrence's life. His dear friend Katherine Mansfield, one of his few loyal friends, was at a restaurant and overheard two men (Kot and Gertler) making snide remarks about his collection of poems Amores. She walked over to them, asked to see the book and walked away with it, just as Gudrun did with Rupert Birkin's letter.

I really recommend reading his biography, specifically Elain Feinstein's "Lawrence and the Women." His characters are illustrated wonderfully, however they are also mainly based on close friends and family. I find it much easier to understand his novels, which were his most prized possessions, after reading about his life and inspirations. The biography is also not boring, if you do not ordinarily read them, as i do not. I found it quite interesting and I actually enjoy Lawrence much more then I did prior to reading it. Sons and Lovers is a great book as well, if you would like to learn a bit more about his earlier years from his own personal account. The short story the White Stocking is also EXTREMELY close to his own experiences with his wife Frieda. They undoubtedly loved eachother, but their relationship was on the fine line between love and hate and both were very jealous and violent with eachother (due to her D.H.'s popularity and her lack of it, and his strong fear of powerful women as well as her sexual permiscuity during their marriage).

Sorry if i interrupted, however I thought it would be beneficial to know a bit about his struggles and life if you want to further understand his novels, poems and short stories. Thank you for reading! =)

[Janine]

First off, welcome, manders, to the forum. I am pleased you have such an avid interest in D.H.Lawence. I share this interest whole-heartedly. The man's work and life never ceases to fascinate me.

Wow, so much here to address, so do be patient. I will work on all of this. First off, if you read any of our discussion, it took place a year or so back; however, threads never really close or end, which makes life interesting, isn't that correct? This discussion was great and then after we discussed "Sons and Lovers'. Currently, we have a very long running 'Lawrence Short Story' thread; this month we have been discussing the longer story "The Princess" - you may be aware of this fact already as attributed to your biographical readings - that this story was also based on a real person, Dorothy Brett. In fact, most of Lawrence's stories were based on someone real; often it is a challenge to find out just who he fashioned the characters after. I have read now 4 or 5 full biographies - all totally fascinating to me; I haven't read the one you mentioned but I will look into it. I have the Cambridge ones currently to tackle. I can't get the last one - "The Dying Game" because the price on that one keeps soaring; quite impossible to aquire. I have several other spin-offs that I also plan to read - one is 'The Minoan Distance'...this deals with Lawrence, during his traveling years, expecially in NM and Mexico; I haven't read all of that yet, just parts. I am quite obsessed with Lawrence, as by now, you can imagine. Still he wrote so darn much, his letters themselves take up about 8 full volumes, it is always an endless pursuit to find more Lawrence...or course I have my work cut out for me now....my goal being to read all that I do own presently. Let me get specifically to your comments.

I just wanted to address the comment about the change in Halliday's appearance. Before the publication of this book, Lawrence was nearly sued by a friend (wish i could remember his name). The appearance and personality of Halliday was curiously similar to that of this old friend. To protect his hard earned income and royalties on the book, and in accordance with his publisher's wishes, he changed the appearance from black hair to blond. He was still sued and the man took part of his earnings for the book. Questions still arise as to whether or not he was only making a deal of it for monetary gain.

Yes, this is basically true; I and the group here, pretty much knew this and since Lawrence had first written "The Rainbow" and I believe it was banned or he was also sued for that novel, therefore he had to comply his publishers. I don't think it was profit per ce that drove Lawrence, but he had to live, also. He cared little for money or riches, but he had to support his wife and he make enough money to finally be enabled to travel to the places he desired to go. He couldn't starve; so one must understand, he could not be expected to write for no or little profit. There was an early time he had to borrow money and he abhored the idea. He paid it all back. I think also Lawrence might be inclined to change a persons hair color or his physical appearance for symbolic reasons, not just out of fear of being sued. Lawrence was always being threatened to be sued. He would verbally fight back, whenever he had the chance. Knowing what he did about the problems surrounding his publication of "The Rainbow" he was more cautious concerning "Women in Love' - the book that he considered his masterpiece. I happen to think it his best book, as well; although others on the forum may disagree with me. Virgil also knows much about Lawrence - he wrote his thesis on Lawrence's idea of 'Transfiguration'.

The character Pussum was also inspired by the friend's wife. The character Hermione was also said to be based on a woman named Lady Ottoline Morrell, she did not sue him for libel, but the case was settled out of court. One more thing- If you all remember the part in the book when Gudrun and Gerald were in a restaurant and met Pussum, Halliday and their gang... this actually happened in Lawrence's life. His dear friend Katherine Mansfield, one of his few loyal friends, was at a restaurant and overheard two men (Kot and Gertler) making snide remarks about his collection of poems Amores. She walked over to them, asked to see the book and walked away with it, just as Gudrun did with Rupert Birkin's letter.

I don't know if I knew Pussum was based on his wife, but probably I did at the time we discussed this book. I think we discussed these connections on this thread sometime back. We all were very aware that Hermoine was based on Ottoline Morrel; that I found clearly evident in several of my biography books and other research books I keep handy; one especially helpful book is a 'timeline' and this outlines just what Lawrence was doing, where he resided and often entries from his own diary or letters to friends documenting his ideas, as he was writting various stories and novels...it is a great window into what Lawrence was thinking and doing at those times. It is a small book and probably impossible to find but worth it's weight in gold.

I don't know if I knew that Katherine Mansfield had actually lived out this scene so this interests me. Thanks for adding it to this thread - love these little tid-bits of information. I know that Lawrence and Katherine Mansfield were good friends, so this would follow to be true. She definitely would have rallied to Lawrence's defense. It was her husband, who Lawrence later split with, Murray - Murray wrote some scathing commentary on Lawrence and that was that. Kot he also split with; at one time he had been somewhat friendly. I forget about Gertler; I think that Virgil knows more about him than I do but I will look him today, because I just can't recall very much about him, although he was often mentioned by Lawrence or in the biographies which I read sometime ago - within the last 5 yrs or so.

[QUOTE]I really recommend reading his biography, specifically Elain Feinstein's "Lawrence and the Women." His characters are illustrated wonderfully, however they are also mainly based on close friends and family. [quote]

I will have to look into that biography. I actually never heard of this author but he sounds quite informed and interesting. Thanks for suggesting it.

I find it much easier to understand his novels, which were his most prized possessions, after reading about his life and inspirations. The biography is also not boring, if you do not ordinarily read them, as i do not. I found it quite interesting and I actually enjoy Lawrence much more then I did prior to reading it.

I am in total agreement with this statement and thought of yours. I say it all the time; one can't separate the art from the artist's life and influences, nor the writing from the author's biography - at least not in Lawrence's case...his personal biography definitely inhances and aids the understanding of any of Lawrence's works. I am not a big biography reader either but I was totally captivated by every biography I have read on Lawrence.

Sons and Lovers is a great book as well, if you would like to learn a bit more about his earlier years from his own personal account. The short story the White Stocking is also EXTREMELY close to his own experiences with his wife Frieda. They undoubtedly loved eachother, but their relationship was on the fine line between love and hate and both were very jealous and violent with eachother (due to her D.H.'s popularity and her lack of it, and his strong fear of powerful women as well as her sexual permiscuity during their marriage).

Yes, "Sons and Lovers" is a classic! We did a full discussion on the novel about a year ago also. How time flies! It was an excellent discussion and discussion group. I hope you can find the thread and review it. I think you will find it highyly informative and interesting. I read the book twice now and the same with "Women in Love"...actually WIL I also listened to an audio-recording now two times - I love it and intend to listen to it again sometime. It is saved on disks and my PC.

In the 'L Short Story' thread, we discussed in-depth 'The White Stocking'...we were aware from the start of the discussion that the idea was based on an incident which happend to Lawrence's mother. I truly was not that aware of his and his wife, Frieda's, connection to this story; this is an early story, so I thought this was prior to all the problems the married couple encountered later on, when say, they had been married 10 yrs or so. All you say about their relationship is true, but I am not sure this story directly connects with them as a newly married couple. I will look this up, since I own a commentary book exclusively on the early fiction of Lawrence - the author, Michael Black, goes into accurate detail concerning this story and it's background, among other stories of Lawrence's. I may be wrong and have just forgotten that connection - it would seem somewhat logical. The M. Black book has helped greatly in the short story discussion group. I hope you will be able to join us in our next discussion, which may either be in January or February - we have not decided on the next one yet. We may skip a month; we had discussed that idea.

Sorry if i interrupted, however I thought it would be beneficial to know a bit about his struggles and life if you want to further understand his novels, poems and short stories. Thank you for reading! =)

Oh don't be sorry; I am so glad you showed up and your comments are very helpful. Like I said the groups never really die out or end. I hope I have been of help to you, as well. We do however know about his many struggles in life....I believe that is one good reason I am so drawn to the author and of course, he fought against all odds, having such poor health....but his genius was always evident.

Feel free to post again or contact me about Lawrence and I hope sincerely you join our short story discussion group. Also, and in limbo, currently there is a poetry thread on L called "Baby Tortoise" - we attempted to discuss this group of poems but only got so far; hopefully one of these days we will continue and finish up. The poems are wonderful; all of L's poems are terrific and deeply meaningful.

[Virgil]

Thanks Manders. Perhaps you can join us in other Lawrence readings. We're hoping to do The Rainbow sometime in the early spring.