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Thread: D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

  1. #2281
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    Yes, though I do not think I would say Emma is truly maternal, even if she has moments where she loves the child.
    Well, sometimes first time mothers are not as 'maternal' as one would think; not 'immediately', as all would expect from them to be. Afterall, if this a tremendous responsibility that has been thrust on this young woman; and without the support of a loving husband/father, it has to be difficult for her. I don't condemn the mother, here at all. Does it say how young the baby is? If an infant and a week or two old, Emma still could be suffering a sort of 'post pardem depression' and her demeanor/attitude might be quite subdued or numbed, to what it normally would have been, or her nerves might not allow her feelings to totally surface towards the child. For some women, it takes a bit of time to bond with the child, especially an illegitimate child, which was not planned. Perhaps since the older sisters tends to take over so much and rule the family, this material 'bonding' does not happen as quickly....it is delayed. I don't think Emma hates the child; her deep-down feelings are those of love.

    She does not even know when her own child is hungery or how often she should feed it. And the way she anwerers her sister, as if she does not really care. I do not think her just being young, is enough of an excuse for that.
    Well, first time mothers don't always adhere to a strict schedule, either. If the baby was not crying for food, and was she was nursing, the baby might not need to be feed within the confines of the strict two hour schedule, the older sister has layed out for her. Sometimes babies will feed all the time and others will not. I know this from my son and his wife's new experience with their first child/infant. It was not always easy to know when to feed the child and even when fussy the baby would not always want food. I saw this part of the story more like a way of putting down the younger sister and being more dominent and bossy towards her.

    In a multi-faceted way this seeing the child as a 'symbol' is understandable in different aspects within the dynamics of this dysfunctional family. The fact that his child has arrived, and is now visible and real, is a sore spot to their reputation, also now the child means more work for everyone and this would cause the younger daughter to feel resentment towards them and to the 'cause'(the child) of that added work - her unwanted (shameful) pregnancy and now the presence of the child, who represents a sort of undermining of any bit of peace, that might have existed in this family. It is a complicated situation and I think feasible, that now they all feel that they have more than they can handle, with the small baby to help raise, and with the aging father, who to me sometimes seems to be 'losing touch' with reality; not to mention the feeling of shame/disgrace, they can't seem to escape.

    She has to be told to take care of her own child, and how to care for it.
    Some new mother's don't know exactly what to do with a small child, especially being on one's own basically with no husband. Nowdays they have baby classes to prepare one for babycare. My son and daughter-in-law took one and still they had to struggle through learning so much the first two weeks or so. It is not easy at first to care for a helpless infant. I don't feel harsh towards the mother here. I think she does love the child and she is being put down by her sisters. They are enabling her to be helpless if she truly is that way, by taking over and being dominent. There is a true power struggle going on here - not just between daughters and father but also among the sibblings themselves.

    In addtion to be more responseable Bertha acts much more affectionately towrd the child.
    Well, she can...she does not have total responsibility of the child; neither does she share the complete quilt or shame, of the actions lead to this baby's existence. Bertha may do the chores and tend to many things in the house, even her father, but still the baby is connected directly to her sister, the babe's mother. Some new mothers can feel totally overwhelmed at first. This passes normally and they are more close to their babies in the end. Giving birth does not always assure immediate material response.

    In someways but ofcourse nothing as extreme this recalls me to "Sleepy" in the Chekhov thread because there the child also became a symbol. In that case a symbol of depriving the young woman who tended the child her much needed sleep. In the Lawrence story the baby is again a symbol - but this time a symbol of the shame that now will become part of the family. They can't see past the shame at this point and see the baby as a good and wonderful thing. In both stories the perception of the child is altered because of the circumstances.

    Quote by Quark
    Perhaps Bertha doesn't think of the baby as a symbol like the rest of the family does. I know Lawrence only accuses Emma directly of interpreting the baby as a symbol, but clearly that sentence is applicable to the other members of the family. It might also explain why Bertha is more maternal toward the child.
    Quark, I think this may be true. Afterall, the members of this family are all individuals and may think somewhat differently in this situation. Perhaps Bertha is more open-minded about the child. As I said also she can feel maternal since she is not the mother - I know that does not make sense, but if you read the rest of my post you will see what I mean. She is not directly linked to the 'shame'.
    Last edited by Janine; 09-01-2008 at 03:03 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #2282
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    I can understand Bertha's feelings and actions towrd her sister Emma, Emma really does not seem to contribute anything to the household and the family, but rather is a source of a burdon to them, and whatever happend, she is not completely free of blame from her siutation, as she did have an affair with the baker, without having any furture plans to stay with him.

    Even the father and brother work out of the house to provide some income, even if they are burdonsome when they are home, the very house that they live in, is on account of the father's wages.

    And Hilda works inspite of being sick as well as taking charge of order within the house. While Bertha has to look after the father, and tend to household chores.

    Emma dose not do anything but sulk over her baby of which she ineffectively cares for, for whatever reasons. She has added another mouth to feed in the house, and cause the family shame, but does nothing.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  3. #2283
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I can understand Bertha's feelings and actions towrd her sister Emma, Emma really does not seem to contribute anything to the household and the family, but rather is a source of a burdon to them, and whatever happend, she is not completely free of blame from her siutation, as she did have an affair with the baker, without having any furture plans to stay with him.
    Oh good, we are finally disagreeing, DM; I was wondering what was going on lately. I don't know if we can assume all of that from the scant information that is given in the story but maybe we can surmise somethings about Emma. I will have to re-read that part over again, because I really can't recall exactly my impression on her quality of mothering.

    Even the father and brother work out of the house to provide some income, even if they are burdonsome when they are home, the very house that they live in, is on account of the father's wages.
    Yes, they do. But women in the house do the chores and housework - doesn't that count for anything? Times were tough back then; they did not have automatic washers and sometimes water had to be drawn from wells. I am sure that this is a strain on all, and mostly the women, having a baby to care for.

    And Hilda works inspite of being sick as well as taking charge of order within the house. While Bertha has to look after the father, and tend to household chores.
    Yes, true but I got the impression she did so with some bit of resentment. I think that might be true now of Bertha as well - having to take care of the father and look after the welfare of the baby.

    Emma dose not do anything but sulk over her baby of which she ineffectively cares for, for whatever reasons. She has added another mouth to feed in the house, and cause the family shame, but does nothing.
    Well, we are only given a small window into one day's activity in this household. Can we make the assumption that Emma always sulks over the baby or neglects it as far as care is concerned? How do you know she does nothing? Is there additional text to support that assumption?
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  4. #2284
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    I do not think I assumed any more than you did about her. There is no proof within the story that she is suffering from 'post pardem depression' you yourself had imposed a lot of your own personal experince upon Emma, that really is not shown within the story, and is just speulcation.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  5. #2285
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    I do not think I assumed any more than you did about her. There is no proof within the story that she is suffering from 'post pardem depression' you yourself had imposed a lot of your own personal experince upon Emma, that really is not shown within the story, and is just speulcation.
    True, I only sited it as a possibility, in conjuction with her not appearing to be express her maternal feelings towards her baby, at this particular time. Alone with the child I don't know how she would react or be. Right now they are all nervously awaiting the arrival of the parson. I don't think any of them could be said to be entirely behaving, as they do on a daily basis, but I could be wrong. There is no evidence either way.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  6. #2286
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    I will post more of the text to discuss, hope that is ok with everyone. Where is everyone anyway?

    Here is the next section of text:

    "E'll come--'e'll come!" assured the stranger.
    A few minutes later Bertha hurried into the kitchen, taking off her apron. The dog barked furiously. She opened the door, commanded the dog to silence, and said: "He will be quiet now, Mr Kendal."

    "Thank you," said a sonorous voice, and there was the sound of a bicycle being propped against a wall. A clergyman entered, a big-boned, thin, ugly man of nervous manner. He went straight to the father.

    "Ah--how are you?" he asked musically, peering down on the great frame of the miner, ruined by locomotor ataxy.

    His voice was full of gentleness, but he seemed as if he could not see distinctly, could not get things clear.

    "Have you hurt you hand?" he said comfortingly, seeing the white rag.
    "It wor nöwt but a pestered bit o' coal as dropped, an' I put my hand on th' hub. I thought tha worna commin'."

    The familiar 'tha', and the reproach, were unconscious retaliation on the old man's part. The minister smiled, half wistfully, half indulgently. He was full of vague tenderness. Then he turned to the young mother, who flushed sullenly because her dishonoured breast was uncovered.

    "How are you?" he asked, very softly and gently, as if she were ill and he were mindful of her.

    "I'm all right," she replied, awkwardly taking his hand without rising, hiding her face and the anger that rose in her.

    "Yes--yes"--he peered down at the baby, which sucked with distended mouth upon the firm breast. "Yes, yes." He seemed lost in a dim musing.
    Coming to, he shook hands unseeingly with the woman.

    Presently they all went into the next room, the minister hesitating to help his crippled old deacon.

    "I can go by myself, thank yer," testily replied the father.
    A few things stand out in this section concerning the father...his 'locomotor ataxy' is again emphasised. I am not sure what that is; but will try looking it up online. Then this statement: "The familiar 'tha', and the reproach, were unconscious retaliation on the old man's part." This part is interesting. 'tha' would indicate the common language of Lawrence's father, as well...sort of a model for this father. I was curious about the part 'unconscious retaliation'...I imagine the man feels very much in the background and when addressed he is addressed directly this is new to him and sort of uncomfortable at this time; then he retreats back into the background again or his 'unconscious relaliation'. The last statement indictes his independence in not needing or wanting the parson's help.

    What impression do you have of the parson, Dark Muse?
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  7. #2287
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    locomotor ataxy is a nervous system disorder. It talks a lot about it here in detail.

    http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Locomotor_Ataxia

    His voice was full of gentleness, but he seemed as if he could not see distinctly, could not get things clear.
    I found this discription to by quite currious. Particuarly the way it says "He could not get things clear" and I had wondered at just what was meant by that, though I am not completely sure.

    "How are you?" he asked, very softly and gently, as if she were ill and he were mindful of her.
    I found it intersting in the way in which the parson here views the mother as if she were ill, on account of her shameful situation. He treats her as if she had some sort of disease.

    It is a bit ironical considering the father truly is ill, and yet the parson is comftrable with him. While he is awakard around the women.

    "Yes--yes"--he peered down at the baby, which sucked with distended mouth upon the firm breast. "Yes, yes." He seemed lost in a dim musing.
    Coming to, he shook hands unseeingly with the woman.
    Here he does not seem to quite know what to do with himself, as he just keeps repeating himself.

    And once more it refers to his inablity to "See" though I do not think that this is meant to be taken as litteraly as if the Parson truly has a problem with his eyesight, but the way in which there seems to be something about him, that makes what is happening around him unclear in his view. I cannot quite make out.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  8. #2288
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    locomotor ataxy is a nervous system disorder. It talks a lot about it here in detail.

    http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Locomotor_Ataxia
    Thanks for the link. I just checked it out and read/skimmed part of it. Seem being neurological in nature I could see how his mind might be somewhat affected and explain that statement you say below is curious. Perhaps he could not think being distracted from pain or discomfort. Also it says their eye-sight is affected so maybe the last part of the line refers more to his sight. Even a small loss of sight can make one confused and disoriented. Perhaps this is why 'he could not get things clear'.

    I found this discription to by quite currious. Particuarly the way it says "He could not get things clear" and I had wondered at just what was meant by that, though I am not completely sure.

    I found it intersting in the way in which the parson here views the mother as if she were ill, on account of her shameful situation. He treats her as if she had some sort of disease.
    I did, too. Plus it he felt embarrassed seeing the mother's breat naked feeding the baby. In someway he feels intrusive and so he treats her as though ill. It is nice he askes how she is though; she did give birth to the child and her situation must be stressful.


    It is a bit ironical considering the father truly is ill, and yet the parson is comftrable with him. While he is awakard around the women.
    Does he relate better to a man? Perhaps that is the case.

    Here he does not seem to quite know what to do with himself, as he just keeps repeating himself.
    Perhaps that is nervousness, given the situtation and as you said 'he does not seem to quite know what to do with himself' being now the central figure in the family and the situtation there.


    And once more it refers to his inablity to "See" though I do not think that this is meant to be taken as litteraly as if the Parson truly has a problem with his eyesight, but the way in which there seems to be something about him, that makes what is happening around him unclear in his view. I cannot quite make out.
    Oh, maybe I mistoke the words in your first comments to mean from the father. If so that is not true - it being due to his illness. The parson does not seem to be able to see clearing would be curious; however he is basically an outsider and he probably feels so out of place there. He can't quite grasp the circumstances and the situation around him.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  9. #2289
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Oh, maybe I mistoke the words in your first comments to mean from the father. If so that is not true - it being due to his illness. The parson does not seem to be able to see clearing would be curious; however he is basically an outsider and he probably feels so out of place there. He can't quite grasp the circumstances and the situation around him.
    No, the first part is speaking of the Parson, not the farther, here is the full quote:

    "Ah--how are you?" he asked musically, peering down on the great frame of the miner, ruined by locomotor ataxy.

    His voice was full of gentleness, but he seemed as if he could not see distinctly, could not get things clear.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  10. #2290
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Muse View Post
    No, the first part is speaking of the Parson, not the farther, here is the full quote:
    Oh yes, then that is interesting. One would expect that statement to be more about the father - well maybe not the 'gentleness' part, but he does seem subdued at times, though sad.
    Last edited by Janine; 09-06-2008 at 08:19 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  11. #2291
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    DM, seems it is basically you and I left in here, so please let me know if you think I should post more text so that we can advance towards the ending.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  12. #2292
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Yes I think I am ready for the next part of the text.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Ok, will post it tomorrow.
    Last edited by Janine; 09-09-2008 at 01:04 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  14. #2294
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I'm back. I will need to catch up, and perhaps reread the story. Perhaps by tonight.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  15. #2295
    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Welcome back

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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