D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Virgil]

Now this will be my third time saying this - tell us what you are seeing; post some comments on the theme and the basic idea of the story. Virgil...hello... Since when did you and I not get along? I am easy and co-operative. We have been waiting for you to post some comments as a whole...at least I have been waiting. I didn't post any new text, did I?

Ok, ok. I will have to do it tomorrow.

[Janine]

Ok, ok. I will have to do it tomorrow.

tomorrow....?...oh OK....


Are you going to comment in the Tortoise poems soon?

I don't feel really well tonight and may knock off soon anyway.

I can't find that thread about the updates. I tried to change my blog settings and don't know why it won't go through, but you can try it again: maybe it did reset it.

[Virgil]

tomorrow....?...oh OK....


Are you going to comment in the Tortoise poems soon?

I don't feel really well tonight and may knock off soon anyway.

I can't find that thread about the updates. I tried to change my blog settings and don't know why it won't go through, but you can try it again: maybe it did reset it.

Yes I will. I need to sit and read it carefully. I'm overwhelmed with lots going on.

[Janine]

Yes I will. I need to sit and read it carefully. I'm overwhelmed with lots going on.

I just emailed you. Sorry you are overwhelmed. I feel a bit that way myself currently, so take your time.

[Virgil]

Ok, here's my take on the story. I think the story is more about the daughters’s unnatural relationship with their father than about the Christening, though the Christening adds the religious overtone to the conflict. The daughters all exert their power over a decrepit old man, with Hilda’s schoolmistress personality opposing the old man’s natural, more blood conscious person. The men in the story are all either churlish (the baker, the son) or weak (the minister, the old man, the baby). All three of the women exert power, but the power is removed from nature: Hilda the schoolmistress, Bertha the bossy, and Emma the unmarried mother who rejects the father. The story is predominantly about this conflict, another of those Lawrence stories where women’s power leads to dysfunction.

[Janine]

Ok, here's my take on the story. I think the story is more about the daughters’s unnatural relationship with their father than about the Christening, though the Christening adds the religious overtone to the conflict. The daughters all exert their power over a decrepit old man, with Hilda’s schoolmistress personality opposing the old man’s natural, more blood conscious person. The men in the story are all either churlish (the baker, the son) or weak (the minister, the old man, the baby). All three of the women exert power, but the power is removed from nature: Hilda the schoolmistress, Bertha the bossy, and Emma the unmarried mother who rejects the father. The story is predominantly about this conflict, another of those Lawrence stories where women’s power leads to dysfunction.

Hurrah! You posted something, Virgil; I checked it last night, but I guess you were still busy and actually so was I. Ok, I would agree with all of the above. I think if familiar with Lawrence's other works one would see that right away. I did think the three woman prominent as compared with the impressions we get of the men in the story, even the brother, who actually becomes quite irritating. I think, that as we work through the story we will come up with other thoughts to add to this or to expound on what you have said here. I like the way you stated that - very precise and to the point (unlike some 'long-winded people we know, namely me).

If it is ok with you, leave your comment and this post for the others to read and comment on, and then tomorrow I will post more of the story; unless you wish to post some comments on the opening paragraphs, also. I have to go out late today into this evening, so that would work out well for me. Either that or I will post it later to night. Just let me know which to do.

[Virgil]

If it is ok with you, leave your comment and this post for the others to read and comment on, and then tomorrow I will post more of the story; unless you wish to post some comments on the opening paragraphs, also. I have to go out late today into this evening, so that would work out well for me. Either that or I will post it later to night. Just let me know which to do.

Oh I'm glad you see it that way too. That sounds good to me.

[Janine]

Oh I'm glad you see it that way too. That sounds good to me.

Glad of it. Tomorrow I will post some more of the text to discuss. Too tired now - think I might watch a movie and relax.

[Dark Muse]

Overall I agree with Virgil about the story, and I can definitely be seen in the household with the three sisters and broken down father, and childish brother. And it is funny as Janine had mentioned this story in some relation to Sons and Lovers, and reading this story did make me think of that book and Mr. Morel.

But there was one thing of which I was curious about.

I do not think it as a random detail. First it sets the scene, but second it suggests at one of the central conflicts of the story, that is male verses female power and the diminishing of male power.

Just how do the opening lines about the women rushing home to cook dinner for their husbands support and set up the theme of the declining power of men?

[Janine]

Overall I agree with Virgil about the story, and I can definitely be seen in the household with the three sisters and broken down father, and childish brother. And it is funny as Janine had mentioned this story in some relation to Sons and Lovers, and reading this story did make me think of that book and Mr. Morel.

But there was one thing of which I was curious about.



Just how do the opening lines about the women rushing home to cook dinner for their husbands support and set up the theme of the declining power of men?

Yeah, since when is rushing home nervously to get a husband's dinner on the table a sign of power?

[Virgil]

Yeah, since when is rushing home nervously to get a husband's dinner on the table a sign of power?

I think that counterpoints the dysfunctional aspect of the family at hand.

[Nossa]

I think that counterpoints the dysfunctional aspect of the family at hand.

If it counterpoints the dysfuncional family of the Rowbotham, then it's the other way around. If the two women are hurrying home to make dinner, then they're probably afraid that their husbands might get angry, which affirms the male domination. In the Rowbotham household, the father's role is almost absent. He's being treated harshly by his youngest daughter, and his middle daughter is the one who seems to be in charge. He's overall a weak character (like you stated in a previous post).

I too find the detail of Hilda's heart condition strange. First it seems really unlikely that a 20 something woman would have a heart problem, but other than the mention toward the end of the story about her heart "flutters" and "was in pain" it doesn't seem to figure much in the story. I don't think Lawrence wanted us to sympathize with Hilda. There is much he supplies that make us want to reject her.

Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?

[Janine]

Nossa,Glad to see you back posting in this thread. I have to agree with you and also with Dark Muse's comments. Hey, Virgil, I think you will be outnumbered this time, with 3 women against one guy - sorry; you better drag Quark back in here; although he might not yet have internet access in his new apartment.

Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?

I would have to agree and ask the same question.

Maybe the wise thing to do, is to go ahead with the story, and then later consider all that has been said, to sum up the story. We really can't know the theme completely, until we discuss each part of the story and see just what the intentions of the author truly were. I think we should take the journey along with the author as he is developing his story. I know by my reading that Lawrence worked this way and so many times he wrote, then completely rewrote his story until he got it right. I don't think he just dashed this story off either; there were many rewrites so I am sure whatever he put into it was quite intentional and for a purpose.

[Janine]

I am posting a bit more of the text:

She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.

Across the field, and she was at home. It was a new, substantial cottage, built with unstinted hand, such a house as an old miner could build himself out of his savings. In the rather small kitchen a woman of dark, saturnine complexion sat nursing a baby in a long white gown; a young woman of heavy, brutal cast stood at the table, cutting bread and butter. She had a downcast, humble mien that sat unnaturally on her, and was strangely irritating. She did not look round when her sister entered. Hilda put down the bag of cakes and left the room, not having spoken to Emma, nor to the baby, not to Mrs Carlin, who had come in to help for the afternoon.

*********
My comments:

I think in this first paragraph, Lawrence paints a vivid scene of the surrounding countryside. He contrasts the words well. If you notice the the color 'white' first seen in Hilda's white bag, 'white' again echoes in the description:
"the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke...."
Also, Hilda is described as "flushing over her neck", this later in the paragragh echoes in this phrase, which I find very beautiful and graphic...painterly..

"A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist."

She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.

Also, evident in the paragraph above, is the strain and stess physically, of her long walk homeward and yet though, it is a "slow-stepping torture", she has "an appearance of steadfast unconcern." I think this would be something familiar to Lawrence, with his own mother and her steadily declining health, and yet her 'steadfastness' to fight until the bitter end of life.

Also, I notice the confines of the town with it's closed in 'gossipy' feeling (restrictive to Hilda), is now contrasted with her 'freer' journey homeward in these words
"the wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight..."

The twilight also seems to be a 'foreshadowing' for the coming events of the story, being seen off in the distant of the "far woods".

"It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse."

This line seems to foretell the coming events, as well, but goes beyond that and says to us how nature can sooth and soften the human body and soul - or as Lawrence used the words, "soften, diffuse" the "irritable sadness" Hilda is feeling during her long trip homeward. I say 'long', because, to a woman of poor health, this walk would seem to go on forever and be percieved as long and difficult to endure on a daily basis.

[Virgil]

Just wanted to back track a little. Here's the exchange with the baker:

She turned into Berryman's, the baker's. The shop displayed bread and cakes, sacks of flour and oatmeal, flitches of bacon, hams, lard and sausages. The combination of scents was not unpleasing. Hilda Rowbotham stood for some minutes nervously tapping and pushing a large knife that lay on the counter, and looking at the tall, glittering brass scales. At last a morose man with sandy whiskers came down the step from the house-place.

"What is it?" he asked, not apologizing for his delay.

"Will you give me six-pennyworth of assorted cakes and pastries--and put in some macaroons, please?" she asked, in remarkably rapid and nervous speech. Her lips fluttered like two leaves in a wind, and her words crowded and rushed like a flock of sheep at a gate.

"We've got no macaroons," said the man churlishly.

He had evidently caught that word. He stood waiting.

"Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.

"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile. He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever.

"Oh, anything you've got," replied the schoolmistress, flushing slightly. The man moved slowly about, dropping the cakes from various dishes one by one into a paper bag.

"How's that sister o' yours getting on?" he asked, as if he were talking to the flour scoop.

"Whom do you mean?" snapped the schoolmistress.

"The youngest," answered the stooping, pale-faced man, with a note of sarcasm.

"Emma! Oh, she's very well, thank you!" The schoolmistress was very red, but she spoke with sharp, ironical defiance. The man grunted. Then he handed her the bag and watched her out of the shop without bidding her "Good afternoon".

We learn later that the baker is the father of the child. What do you see in this exchange? Is he upset that he is shut out from Emma? I don't get the feeling he has abandoned Emma. But it's really not clear. I think this is the only failing of an otherwise a perfect story. I'm not sure what to think of the baker. I want to say that it's Emma who has left him but I'm not sure. What are your thoughts on Berryman?

If it counterpoints the dysfuncional family of the Rowbotham, then it's the other way around. If the two women are hurrying home to make dinner, then they're probably afraid that their husbands might get angry, which affirms the male domination. In the Rowbotham household, the father's role is almost absent. He's being treated harshly by his youngest daughter, and his middle daughter is the one who seems to be in charge. He's overall a weak character (like you stated in a previous post).

Within the moral framework of the story (not mine or yours or contemporary times) I think the women's subordination to their husbands is the norm and the willful women of the Rowbotham household are dysfunctional. The two women hurrying home is a strong contrast to the three daughters bossing their father around.

Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?

I think Lawrence rejects the learnedness of Hilda and the female domination of the household. The men in this story are reduced in power and stature and I don't think Lawrence approves.