D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.

I think later, DM, you actually answer this yourself. I think also Lawrence means to set the stage of a kind of 'gossipy' neighborhood surroundings. People 'talk' and in particular, this will come out stronger with the shame of someone (in this case her younger sister) having given birth to a child 'out of wedlock.' I think that the school teacher's character is closely being grouped with this family, who are now dainted with shame; the onlookers are like the towns people in the "Scarlet Letter." Indeed their activities are presented as normal in contrast to the disfunctional family that this woman is associated with.

I did not like the fact, that it seemed like it was just a random detail thrown in the story. Why did the reader need to know this?

I think we now have established it does have it's precise purpose and is not random; nor a mere detail of no significance. Lawrence grew up in neighborhoods like this and he knew the way common people could gossip and talk about their neighbors.

So I really want these lines to have some purpose in the overall story, though perhaps I am trying to stretch things too far.

They do have meaning; I don't think you are stretching things one bit. These opening passages set the scene/atmosphere and the fact that the family is now a sort of outcast unit, in the eyes of their neighbors and the town's people.

But I thought perhaps these two women were meant to sort of offset against the abnormalcy, of dysfunctional family and life of the Robtham's. They are more or less "normal" sense they are on their way to cook for their husbands, in contrast to Hilda.

I would agree with this contrast. You stated that well.

Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.

Yes, I thought so, too. I agree that "Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip" - that is a good way of putting it. I like the wording of "sails' down the street"....and the part about "her slow deliberate stride." I will read over the passage again and see if I can pick out other defining words.

I found the use of these lines to be interesting, and though when I first read it, I winced slightly because I thought the metaphor was perhaps just a bit overdone, but I liked the symbolism behind the words.

I especially noticed those lines and thought them poetic and I really liked the analogy or metaphor of the black swan.

White sawns are often used as this image of purity, maidenhood, and innocence. So I liked this contrast of the black swan being like the black sheep of the family. The color of their feathers being their mark against them. And yet the birds are just as elegant and beautiful as their white cousins.

Good observation. I like what you wrote here.

I found the whole exchange between Hilda and the Baker to be quite entertaining. Though I wondered why he was made to look like such an unhappy brute. I will try and coment more upon the rest of that part of the text once I have had time to mull it over some more.

I think it does make us wonder about the Baker and this adds some mystery to the story. Later on we do indeed get more insight into what significance he plays in the story. I like the fact that Lawrence only hints here at his part in the tale. I like how he presents him so that we have to think of why he reacts as he does to Hilda.

[Dark Muse]

I think it does make us wonder about the Baker and this adds some mystery to the story. Later on we do indeed get more insight into what significance he plays in the story. I like the fact that Lawrence only hints here at his part in the tale. I like how he presents him so that we have to think of why he reacts as he does to Hilda.

Yes I agree, though for me it was more the other way around. That is I found the way she was acting a bit more strange, and mysterious. The baker I just presumed was a genrally burly sort of fellow. But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.

"Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.

"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile. He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever.

I found this exchange a bit currious and was not completely sure what to make of it.

When it said

He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever

I was unsure, if that meant he simply had not understood her order/ what she wanted. Or if it meant he did not understand what she was trying to say, and that her words just went over his head.

[Janine]

Yes I agree, though for me it was more the other way around. That is I found the way she was acting a bit more strange, and mysterious. The baker I just presumed was a genrally burly sort of fellow. But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.

I found this exchange a bit currious and was not completely sure what to make of it.

When it said "Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.

"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile.

I wonder if she was referring to her younger sister being spoiled by her? I am not sure about the "it is less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else" - could she just be talking in a sarcastic manor? I will have to think about that line more.

"He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever."

I was unsure, if that meant he simply had not understood her order/what she wanted. Or if it meant he did not understand what she was trying to say, and that her words just went over his head.

I do think the Bakerman does not know exactly what she is referring to or consciously he does not recognise her sarcasm. I think that Hilda keeps the family together being the oldest and a woman with a profession; so perhaps she now feels that all her efforts have been invane, given the circumstances that await her at home. All of this is just my own theory of course and the impression I got of this part of the story - the beginning and introduction to both characters and their short little interchange of words.

I'm not talking about judgements, but a discussion on what the story is about, general themes, it's structure.

Virgil, we must have been posting the same time - sorry about that. I did not mean to ignore your post. I know but what you mean, but it just seems that, it always does end up being a judgement on the story or the characters. I didn't mean to go so along quickly, but this month will be short now, and I hope we can start a new story by Sept. I didn't think it totally neccessary to see the overall impression yet, but feel free, V, to say a few words about it, such as themes and structure, if you feel inclined to. I am all ears (actually 'eyes' on here), my good friend...sorry we charged into the first part so quickly; I assumed everyone had read the story by now.

I've always felt that you can't talk about the minutia without an understanding of the overall. But so be it.

Well, you know we think so differently about this. It might be me; I really can't concentrate on a story discussion, if we jump all over with the time sequence. I think I may have dyslexia or something, because I get so overwhelmed, when we start to post comments on the ending or the middle, before we get to those parts of the story. I truly have trouble with that, unless we take it step by step, and post segments of the story to discuss, along with character analysis. Often if we just jump ahead with Lawrence stories, we do miss something vital. At least, that is merely my opinion.

If you want to express an overall understanding/impression, from the start please feel free to do so. I will listen, as I said above. I personally cannot do that until I discuss, think about and digest the story, part by part. You probably are much better at seeing the whole right away, than I am.

[Dark Muse]

I wonder if she was referring to her younger sister being spoiled by her? I am not sure about the "it is less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else" - could she just be talking in a sarcastic manor? I will have to think about that line more.

Oh yes, I did not think of that. At first I thought she was just talking in general, but I can see where she could be refering to what she has to sacrifice for her family and I can see how when she tries to get something for herself once and cannot it would be frustrating.

She does seem a very pious woman, so I can see where she would view it as being better to take care of others, over oneself.

I do think the Bakerman does not know exactly what she is referring to or consciously he does not recognise her sarcasm. I think that Hilda keeps the family together being the oldest and a woman with a profession; so perhaps she now feels that all her efforts have been invane, given the circumstances that await her at home. All of this is just my own theory of course and the impression I got of this part of the story - the beginning and introduction to both characters and their short little interchange of words.

Yes that makes sense. I also got the impression, that the baker was just a bit slow in general, though perhaps it was just his awakardness around her which made him seem to be so.

[Janine]

DM, I am going to retire to bed now - tired out. I think we made a good start today, don't you? Thanks for your comments - you had some good things to point out. Hopefully Virgil will point some general things out tomorrow and then we can move on with the text. Goodnight, DM.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I think it started out well. Goodnight

[Virgil]

I'm behind as usual. I skimmed the story once. I need to read it carefully still.

[Nossa]

Sorry for being late in participating. I got caught up in things with my family. But I'm here now, and I can see you guys already got to the second page

The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.

They do have meaning; I don't think you are stretching things one bit. These opening passages set the scene/atmosphere and the fact that the family is now a sort of outcast unit, in the eyes of their neighbors and the town's people.

I agree with Janine. Actually I thought the two lines were very important in showing how the family was regarded from the rest of the community. Look at the choice of words in the line. D.H. Lawrence used 'hastening' and 'scramble'. Both words show that the two women weren't just going home, but that they were already late and they wanted to reach home as soon as possible, not to make a dinner but to 'scramle' something for their husbands. Despite all that, they still took a moment to look at Hilda as she was passing by, and ton both gaze at her and then give each other a 'women's glance'.
I really liked the comparison you made between the two women and the Rowbothams.

Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.

Yeah, I agree. I really felt bad for Hilda, and at this point I was a bit curious about Hilda herself, only to find out later that the story wasn't really about her.
Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?

I found the whole exchange between Hilda and the Baker to be quite entertaining. Though I wondered why he was made to look like such an unhappy brute. I will try and coment more upon the rest of that part of the text once I have had time to mull it over some more

But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.

I felt really bad for Hilda when she went to the bakery. I did think that he was an insensitive brute, since afterwards we learnt that Hilda herself wasn't the one who had an illegitimate child. I could almost picture her talking in a quick, nervous manner, as if unconsciously apologising for something that she didn't do. I was very curious as to why she was acting very nervous too. I had to re-read what she said (the things she ordered) to see if she maybe ordered something strange or anything...LOL.

I only read the story once, and never got the chance to re-read it. I'll do this today, and come back with more comments hopefully

[Janine]

Quote by Virgil

I'm behind as usual. I skimmed the story once. I need to read it carefully still.

Virgil, You are not far behind, although I did reread the story 3 times now.. and I never skim. I only posted up to the part when Hilda is about to make it to home. That is not too far at all.
Anyway, I thought you wished to post some thoughts on the theme, etc. I wrote about that in my post to you above. Just jump in an do so whenever you want, or if you would rather wait till the end to do so, save it and then we call all discuss those aspects of the story.

Sorry for being late in participating. I got caught up in things with my family. But I'm here now, and I can see you guys already got to the second page

Nossa, You are not late, either....just that DM and I are early... We did make it to the second page in the book (text I posted) but only half way down the page, I think. It really only amounts to about a page of text, actually. We will go slowly posting the text, so don't worry. I have other things besides the forum to attend to, also. Anyway, glad to see you here now, Nossa. It is nice to have a new person in this thread.

I agree with Janine. Actually I thought the two lines were very important in showing how the family was regarded from the rest of the community. Look at the choice of words in the line. D.H. Lawrence used 'hastening' and 'scramble'. Both words show that the two women weren't just going home, but that they were already late and they wanted to reach home as soon as possible, not to make a dinner but to 'scramle' something for their husbands. Despite all that, they still took a moment to look at Hilda as she was passing by, and ton both gaze at her and then give each other a 'women's glance'.

If you wish to for convenience' sake, you can refer to the author as Lawrence or just "L"...we all do that usually. I know I hate typing the D.H. all the time....those periods are a pain! Yes, good point on the words Lawrence chooses to use in that particular part of the text - indeed 'hastening' and 'scrambling' do have their significance; they convey a different feeling than if he said 'they were hurrying home'. These woman probably know that they need to get their husband's dinner on the table in time or they will be chastised for it; yet as you point out they still take the time to stop a minute to observe and gossip, if only in their wry looks of disapproval, about the other woman, Hilda. Immediately, this does set them appart and make Hilda the black sheep, or as DM pointed out - "the black swan". Yet, Hilda is blameless as we find out as the story progresses; or is she?

I really liked the comparison you made between the two women and the Rowbothams.

I think this was the point of starting this story in this manor. It makes it clear from the beginning.

Yeah, I agree. I really felt bad for Hilda, and at this point I was a bit curious about Hilda herself, only to find out later that the story wasn't really about her.

Even though the story was not about Hilda directly she did play a prominent role somehow in the story structure and the family, which we come to realize is quite dysfunctional.

Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?

I didn't really think that actually. I think by showing that she was not 100% healthy showed that the family upkeep did take some sort of toll on her and in that way we do feel more sympathy for the woman at this point. I agree more with your last line. I am also reminded her of Lawrence's own mother for some reason with her demise. She died of cancer but I think she also had a heart condition. Don't quote me on that but I somehow was reminded of her and even the way in which Hilda dressed.




I felt really bad for Hilda when she went to the bakery. I did think that he was an insensitive brute, since afterwards we learnt that Hilda herself wasn't the one who had an illigitimate child. I could almost picture her talking in a quick, nervous manner, as if unconsciously apologising for something that she didn't do. I was very curious as to why she was acting very nervous too. I had to re-read what she said (the things she ordered) to see if she maybe ordered something strange or anything...LOL.

I only read the story once, and never got the chance to re-read it. I'll do this today, and come back with more comments hopefully

Good idea, Nossa, One gets so much more out a second or even a third reading. Lawrence actually was an advocate of repeat readings. I read the story about 6 months ago, and then I read it right before I choose this story for the discussion, and then again the other day at breakfast. It goes along pretty quickly and somehow I have gotten better at getting into the of Lawrence's writing - it all seems very poetic to me now. I guess reading enough, Lawrence, as with Shakespeare, you get natually into the fluidity of the prose. I love it when I find that rhythm and can easily key into it.

[Dark Muse]

I didn't really think that actually. I think by showing that she was not 100% healthy showed that the family upkeep did take some sort of toll on her and in that way we do feel more sympathy for the woman at this point. I agree more with your last line. I am also reminded her of Lawrence's own mother for some reason with her demise. She died of cancer but I think she also had a heart condition. Don't quote me on that but I somehow was reminded of her and even the way in which Hilda dressed.

I did not think of that. But that is a good point. I had wondered just why her illness had been pointed out, as it never seemed to be refered back to much if I recall, other than this opening line.

[Virgil]

The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.

I did not like the fact, that it seemed like it was just a random detail thrown in the story. Why did the reader need to know this?

So I really want these lines to have some purpose in the overall story, though perhaps I am trying to stretch things too far.

I do not think it as a random detail. First it sets the scene, but second it suggests at one of the central conflicts of the story, that is male versuses female power and the diminsihing of male power.

[Virgil]

Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?

I too find the detail of Hilda's heart condition strange. First it seems really unlikely that a 20 something woman would have a heart problem, but other than the mention toward the end of the story about her heart "flutters" and "was in pain" it doesn't seem to figure much in the story. I don't think Lawrence wanted us to sympathize with Hilda. There is much he supplies that make us want to reject her.

This is why I would have liked a story discussion first before detailed analysis. I don't think anyone noticed my post on the bottom of page 147 here. The thread turned a new page after and I think people missed my point. I don't think we are in agreement as to what the story is about.

[Janine]

I too find the detail of Hilda's heart condition strange. First it seems really unlikely that a 20 something woman would have a heart problem, but other than the mention toward the end of the story about her heart "flutters" and "was in pain" it doesn't seem to figure much in the story. I don't think Lawrence wanted us to sympathize with Hilda. There is much he supplies that make us want to reject her.

This is why I would have liked a story discussion first before detailed analysis. I don't think anyone noticed my post on the bottom of page 147 here. The thread turned a new page after and I think people missed my point. I don't think we are in agreement as to what the story is about.

Virgil, you are getting to be bad, mad and dangerous. I did answer your post on page 147 - see my post #2208 on this page. I told you to comment in that post and then later in another post.

[Virgil]

Virgil, you are getting to be bad, mad and dangerous. I did answer your post on page 147 - see my post #2208 on this page. I told you to comment in that post and then later in another post.

Oh so you did. I'm sorry. I didn't see it buried in that long post. Ok. Well, if you guys don't want to discuss the story as a whole, we can do without it. But from what I'm reading from the comments of all three of you I don't think you guys are seeing the same story as me.

[Janine]

Oh so you did. I'm sorry. I didn't see it buried in that long post. Ok. Well, if you guys don't want to discuss the story as a whole, we can do without it. But from what I'm reading from the comments of all three of you I don't think you guys are seeing the same story as me.

Now this will be my third time saying this - tell us what you are seeing; post some comments on the theme and the basic idea of the story. Virgil...hello... Since when did you and I not get along? I am easy and co-operative. We have been waiting for you to post some comments as a whole...at least I have been waiting. I didn't post any new text, did I?