August / Japan Reading: Norwegian Wood

[Amylian]

I feel Turo's way of dealing with Kizuko's death, and other "friendships" thereafter is perplexing. He seems to detach himself from those around him, merely existing; waiting for an end to something. He never really seems to build a relationship with any one person. While he will enter conversations, there is no real emotion attachment to the relationship he builds. The same goes for his relationship with Naoko. For some reason, I feel there is this wall between the two, where emotion is void. Yes, he says he cares. But somehow, his actions seem to say otherwise.

Interesting! Desipte all Toro's efforts to "detach" himself from those around him, he seems, maybe subcouncousily chasing after them and be the one to attach himself to them. I think of Toro as an honest person, and is not honesty part of someone's emotions? to me, yes it is.

So far so good, I am, too, enjoying this great novel. I hope to catch up with you soon.

Regards,
Amylian.

[Scheherazade]

Finished reading the book over the weekend; it was such an excellent treat!

In reference to the question of the well, I believe it is the hospital's "pink elephant". The well, I think, is a way for the patient's to explain a member's "disappearance". In other words, I think when a patient commits suicide, they use the well as a metaphor; rather than admit therapy failed.

I still believe "well" is used as a metaphore for depression. Naoko says something that if people ended up falling in, no one would hear their cries for help etc.

I find Turo's and Naoko's relationship interesting. While Turo expresses care, concern (maybe even love) for Naoko; I feel that in reality, perhaps he is not really in love with her per se. Given the circumstances of Kizuki's death, I feel the two were/are bound by circumstances.

Agreed. They are brought together and bound by experience. Seems like they did not know how to deal with it. It might be something cultural that people do not talk about suicides in Japan, leaving young people like Naoko and Toru to take of themselves (which they do not seem capable of doing).

I feel Turo's way of dealing with Kizuko's death, and other "friendships" thereafter is perplexing. He seems to detach himself from those around him, merely existing; waiting for an end to something. He never really seems to build a relationship with any one person.

I wonder... In my opinion, Toru simply does not know how to connect, rather than detaching himself purposefully. Nagasawa, on the other hand, does detach himself from the people around him on purpose, which is why, I think, Toru decides to cut his ties off with him later on.

Naoko on the other hand, seems to be the opposite of Turo in terms of emotional attachment. This is the reason why she observes herself as "twisted". Then again, given her experience with her sister committing suicide and Kizuki...one can hardly blame her. Even with her relationship with Kizuki, it seems there was this detachment emotionally. While they certainly had a connection and a deep freindship; I think romantic love was absent from their relationship.

Naoko... I have to say she is the character I liked the least in the book. I don't think she is emotionally connected at all. Even though I appreciate all she has been through, she does not seem to be making any effort to get over (too wrapped up in her own misery and feeling sorry for herself).

Perhaps it is different with Japanese society, and what they place their emphasis on; in terms of what is important. That I am not sure. I have a premonition on what will happen with Naoko and Midori. I feel if anyone should be in the hospital, Turo should. He doesn't seem to be addressing Kizuko's death emotionally. This detachment is also seen in his discussion on his major in the university; and his lack of wanting to aspire to a specific goal.

Heh, I think we have very different takes on the issue. I think Toru is the only one in the book who can actually make healthy choices and deal with his own circumstances (even though very round-about ways at times).

By and large, I think the book is concentrating on young people's inability to deal with death and loss (in various forms).

Though death in itself is so dark and harsh, the way it's described here made it darker and harsher.

I really liked the passage you mentioned... and I was taken aback that how true it can be in certain cases.

There is a phrase on page 25 which I feel sums up the them of the book:
"Death exists, not as the opposite but as a part of life."

As each character progresses, we see how death has touched them; and how they adapted to the change. Turo seems to just accept it, and help those around him to cope. Naoko seems to take it on a personal level, to the point where she cannot separate herself from that identity. Midori appears to be afraid.

That passage you have quoted seems the key for survival in the book. People need to accept that death is part of life to be able to survive and live (how ironic!).

I am not sure if Midori is afraid of death. I think she is the one who has experienced death in real terms (watched dying people, unlike Toru and Naoko, whose experiences were very clean cut... People they knew killed themselves... No dirty business of watching them die slowly etc) and she is the one, in my opinion, who can actually accept death for what it is...

It is ironic, again, that Midori says clearly that she is a living girl made of blood and flesh. Even though she has lost both her parents, she does not feel sorry for herself and Toru chooses her and present (life) to be able to survive.

There are couple of passages I would like to quote as well but I am running out of time, so will get back to this thread later on

Niamh> Library?

[lugdunum]

I still believe "well" is used as a metaphore for depression. Naoko says something that if people ended up falling in, no one would hear their cries for help etc.

Agreed. I also think that "the well " is an image for depression.
Naoko tells Turo that he needn't worry as he would never fall into it .
Also she says that as long as she's with him she won't fall either which shows that she sees Toru as a great support against depression.

I'm only halfway through the book but am enjoying it so much I can't wait to get home tonight to pick it up again.

[Niamh]

book arrived today! going to start it tonight!

[HerGuardian]

I've finished reading this lovely novel.

It's interesting how Watanabe didn't fall into the well (depression leading to suicide) though he was walking through the darkness (the time he was all by himself) most of the time alone. After Naoko's suicide, Watanabe tripped and was about to fall in the well but he balanced himself and survived.

In regard to Naoko, her character is so depressing and repulsive (to me). She's uncertain of anything, even her most joyable moments (having sex with Watanabe) were considered by her as a filthy violation. She suspects even her own emotions. Her suicide was certain after turning down Watanabe's offer to come and live with him. She wasn't honest to herself about how she sees life. She even explained her boyfriend's suicide (Kizuki) in a strange way "We didn't pay when we should have, so now the bills are due".

[mickitaz]

Okay, I have now finished the book as well. Was anyone else confused? Did Toru die? I can't quite make heads or tales of the final outcome.

[Taliesin]

I have the book! And I am past the first 124 pages.

[Scheherazade]

In regard to Naoko, her character is so depressing and repulsive (to me).

Agreed!

Okay, I have now finished the book as well. Was anyone else confused? Did Toru die? I can't quite make heads or tales of the final outcome.

I didn't think it was confusing... What made you think that Toru was dead?

I have the book! And I am past the first 124 pages.

Oh, I would definetely like to hear your views on this book, Tal!

[mickitaz]

Agreed!I didn't think it was confusing... What made you think that Toru was dead?

The very last line of the book confused me "Again and again, I called out for Midori from the dead center of this place that was no place".

While he was on the phone with Midori, he didn't know where he was. "Where was I know? I had no idea. No idea at all. Where was this place? All that flashed into my eyes were th countless shapes of people walking by to nowhere."

It was almost as if he died, but his consciousness, was unaware of this matter. Several times, after he wandered through the seasides, people commented on his appearance as withdrawn and emmaciated. Even Toru himself said "I was overcome with a sense of my own defilement."

Granted, this was his grief period, and sometimes one becomes so overwhelmed that they become this way. But I got the impression as Naoko's condition worsened, so did Toru's. His mood seemed to be synonomous with Naoko. Once she died, it took a period of adjustment for him to separate himself from her.

I wonder... In my opinion, Toru simply does not know how to connect, rather than detaching himself purposefully. Nagasawa, on the other hand, does detach himself from the people around him on purpose, which is why, I think, Toru decides to cut his ties off with him later on.

Agreed. Toru does seem to have connection issues. He fails to form any real friendships. The only two meaningful freindships he seemed to form was with Midori and Itoh. Storm Trooper was merely just because they shared a room, and to be honest, I think Nagasawa was more of a convenience freindship. The two had nothing in common, and clearly did not understand each other.


By and large, I think the book is concentrating on young people's inability to deal with death and loss (in various forms).
I am not sure if Midori is afraid of death. I think she is the one who has experienced death in real terms (watched dying people, unlike Toru and Naoko, whose experiences were very clean cut... People they knew killed themselves... No dirty business of watching them die slowly etc) and she is the one, in my opinion, who can actually accept death for what it is...

I may have been pre-emptive in my assesment on Midori. In reviewing some of the passages, I would say she is more tired of death. She has dealt with it in the more "natural" sense of seeing disease take over. I think once her father died, she was more relieved at that fact she didn't have to worry so much anymore.

What is interesting is comparing how Midori dealt with her father's death, and how Toru dealt with Naoko's death. Midori left with her boyfriend and came back alone. She went on her own journey by herself. She and her sister got their own apartment and went on living.

Toru, on the other hand; got his apartment before Naoko died. He made preparations for her to come and live with him. When she finally did die, Toru detached himself once again, and went on a journey alone. When he came back, he still was not finished with his personal journey. Where Midori was vibrant and ready to continue with life; Toru was a shell and still clinging to the past.

Sorry if I seem to be only quoting Scheherazade, however I have yet to figure out how to quote more than one poster in my reply... still working on that

[HerGuardian]

Okay, I have now finished the book as well. Was anyone else confused? Did Toru die? I can't quite make heads or tales of the final outcome.

He didn't die. Aside from any inferences, he is the narrator of the story. He narrated the story after 13 years when he heard the song "Norwegian Wood".

Reiko's story with the 13-year-old girl is a depiction of real life. It shows how we act in such situations. We, most of the time, believe the weaker, the younger or the employee. It's saddening how that girl ruined the life of Reiko. People thought such an angel (the girl) can't be manipulative. Appearances are so deceiveable.

[Taliesin]

Finished the book yesterday night with the help of a bottle of wine.

The character of Nagasawa seems worthy of attention - he seemed to be a sort of archetypal character - an amoral, but not immoral, logical, egoistic, intelligent , uncaring for others, pleasure-seeking man. Reminded me a bit of Svidrigailov or Pechorin. Usually these kinds of characters seem self-destructive, but Nagasawa actually was one of the few characters who didn't commit suicide. (seriously - Kizuki, Naoko, her sister, Hatsumi - it seems like an epidemic)
It is quite interesting how the characters who commit suicide seem to be totally okay before they commit suicide - that is true especially in the case of Kizuki and Naokos sister - but Naoko also seems to be in a good mood beforehand.


I think that Hatsumis suicide makes sense to me - being in love with such a bastard as Nagasawa and understanding that he is, of course, a bastard, but also understanding that she loves him - I think that after those two years she understood that she really was in love with Nagasawa and became disappointed/disillusioned in love/life.


Nagasawa claims at the dinner, that Toru and he are actually quite similar only that Toru hasn't acknowledged it to himself and is therefore confused or gets hurt sometimes. Do you think that this statement is true, at least partially?

[mickitaz]

He didn't die. Aside from any inferences, he is the narrator of the story. He narrated the story after 13 years when he heard the song "Norwegian Wood".

Okay, big DER on my part. Didn't think of it in that respect.

I think that Hatsumis suicide makes sense to me - being in love with such a bastard as Nagasawa and understanding that he is, of course, a bastard, but also understanding that she loves him - I think that after those two years she understood that she really was in love with Nagasawa and became disappointed/disillusioned in love/life.

I agree. Out of anyone who committed suicide, Hatsumis seemed more logical. While I feel that she was a strong enough person to overcome the illusion she created; she still seemed to have the most validity.

Nagasawa claims at the dinner, that Toru and he are actually quite similar only that Toru hasn't acknowledged it to himself and is therefore confused or gets hurt sometimes. Do you think that this statement is true, at least partially?

I would agree with this as well. Toru seems to have trouble connecting with people. Rather than befriend Storm Trooper, he joins the crowd in mocking him. Nagasawa was a relationship based on convenience. Naoko's relationship bled (sorry for the pun) from his friendship from Kizuki. The only two people who were his "true" friends were Itoh and Midori.

While he engaged in the sexual engagements with Nagasawa, he made excuses to himself why he can do it; and not feel like garbage. He negotiated with himself that what he was doing wasn't wrong, because he took the time to treat the girls like human beings. But in reality, he was just as guilty as Nagasawa.


hehe.. I figured out how to quote more than one now Yippee!
This is first brought to light with the conversation with Reiko. Once he realized he was no better than Nagasawa, he stopped engaging in such actions. I think you are right, though. When Nagasawa made the connection between himself and Toru, that really bothered him to the core. Finally, when he saw how upset Hatsumi was by Nagasawa's honesty, this drove the final point home. That he cannot live his life detached from the people in his life.

[HerGuardian]

It's quite interesting that Hatsumi is the only girl who meet Toru and didn't have sex with him. She was so in love with Nagasawa that even Toru with his kindness and attributes didn't get her into bed.


Toru's relationship with girls/women is puzzling. He seems not to have any characteristics of his to-be girlfriend. He is interested in his girlfriend back home, Naoko, Midori and his liking for both Hatsumi and Reiko.

Toru seems to be a man who has his own mind and ways. However, he is easily affected by the people around him. For example, he makes fun of Trooper but acquired the habits of him. He started to be obsessed about cleanness. Also, he is affected by Nagasawa's girls-seeking nights-out.

[Niamh]

I've started reading it. I'm quite enjoying it at the moment but i'm not going to comment or read any of the above discussion till i've finished! I already made the mistake of glancing at one post!

[Scheherazade]

The character of Nagasawa seems worthy of attention - he seemed to be a sort of archetypal character - an amoral, but not immoral, logical, egoistic, intelligent , uncaring for others, pleasure-seeking man. Reminded me a bit of Svidrigailov or Pechorin. Usually these kinds of characters seem self-destructive, but Nagasawa actually was one of the few characters who didn't commit suicide.

I was thinking of Meursault (of The Outsider) doing the Catcher in the Rye actually while I was reading...

(seriously - Kizuki, Naoko, her sister, Hatsumi - it seems like an epidemic)
It is quite interesting how the characters who commit suicide seem to be totally okay before they commit suicide - that is true especially in the case of Kizuki and Naokos sister - but Naoko also seems to be in a good mood beforehand.

I think it might be something cultural.

I think that after those two years she understood that she really was in love with Nagasawa and became disappointed/disillusioned in love/life.

It is ironic, though, isn't it? She seems to have prefered being unfaithful and unreliable Nagasawa's girlfriend to the married life she was leading.

Nagasawa claims at the dinner, that Toru and he are actually quite similar only that Toru hasn't acknowledged it to himself and is therefore confused or gets hurt sometimes. Do you think that this statement is true, at least partially?

I think initially they were quite similar... Toru shows little concern for others as well at the beginning but later on he makes a conscious decision not to be so and when he hears Nagasawa's comment on Hatsumi's suicide, he cuts all his ties with him.

It's quite interesting that Hatsumi is the only girl who meet Toru and didn't have sex with him. She was so in love with Nagasawa that even Toru with his kindness and attributes didn't get her into bed.

I think it was a mechanical way of relating to these people for Toru;however, he realised that it had to mean more.