The Winter's Tale - Act II

[Scheherazade]

Please post your thoughts on Act II of The Winter's Tale in this thread.

Scene I

Scene II

Scene III

[Nightshade]

Well seems its taken everyone a while to work up to starting Act ii so Ill go ahead and say although only read scene i
How old is Max supposed to be??
also this sounds a bit like she has a secret doesnt it?

When you shall come to clearer knowledge, that
You thus have publish'd me! Gentle my lord,
You scarce can right me throughly then to say
You did mistake.

[Scheherazade]

Mam is about 5-6, I think.

I am not sure which part of the passage you are refering to but here she is saying that when she is worried about the time when Leon will find out the truth (ie she is innocent) because he will be in a difficult situation then, I believe.

In Scene I, Mam says "A sad tale's best for winter: I have one / Of sprites and goblins." I think this is the first reference to the title in the play. It is a sad story but it is also "a tale"... Something told for entertainment and maybe not to be taken too seriously?

[bouquin]

Mam's sad winter story seems to foreshadow the tragedy that's right about to happen in the royal household of Sicilia that very same season, doesn't it? .... More so since he starts off by narrating that:

There was a man, -
Dwelt by a churchyard.
(Act II, Scene i: 40,42)

Doesn't Leon eventually mourn profoundly the loss of his loved ones?
Also, Mam's storytelling is cut short by the arrival of his father (act II, scene i, 46). That seems to foreshadow the young prince's death as well, and with his father being basically responsible for it.

[Scheherazade]

Mam dies????

:-/

[CognitiveArtist]

Mam's sad winter story seems to foreshadow the tragedy that's right about to happen in the royal household of Sicilia that very same season, doesn't it? .... More so since he starts off by narrating that:

There was a man, -
Dwelt by a churchyard.
(Act II, Scene i: 40,42)

I definitely agree that Mamillius' story is a playful allusion to the play itself. As helpful commentary in my version of the play noted, it's The Winter's Tale, not A Winter's Tale. some entertaining metafiction, which perhaps helped make performances of this rather tragic play more comedic.


This self-referential comedy is further seen by Hermione's taunting of Mamillius' storytelling, its as if she is saying "imagine your worst!"

HERMIONE
Let's have that, good sir.
Come on, sit down: come on, and do your best
To fright me with your sprites; you're powerful at it.

The irony being her husband's imaginings are something she wouldn't at all beckon. That winter tale she wouldn't want to progress.


I also agree with about every other opinion I've read. The play seems centred upon Leontes and his runaway imagination, the jealousy he cultivates from scant supporting evidence and his other paranoias. Also knowledge in general seems a key theme, and the possibility of too much knowledge, reading too close (I could write a book on the art of over-interpretation! ) Like this delightful, comical phrase illustrates

LEONTES
How blest am I
In my just censure, in my true opinion!
Alack, for lesser knowledge! how accursed
In being so blest!

(2:1 36-39)


What could possibility be meant by the spider description? I'm not quite sure

LEONTES
...There may be in the cup
A spider steep'd, and one may drink, depart,
And yet partake no venom, for his knowledge
Is not infected: but if one present
The abhorr'd ingredient to his eye, make known
How he hath drunk, he cracks his gorge, his sides,
With violent hefts. I have drunk,
and seen the spider.

(2:1 39-45)

[Scheherazade]

I think in those lines Leon is implying that even though he is seeing what everyone else is seeing, he is the only one who can really understand the real meaning behind (ie the affair between his wife and his best friend)? In my text, there is a note saying that in old days it was believed that spider poisoned drinks.

[Quark]

Mam's sad winter story seems to foreshadow the tragedy that's right about to happen

That's a good point, and I like how you implicate Leontes and Mamillus in the story. The only thing I might add is that Hermione's reaction to the tale is also revealing. Mamillus asks her what the best mood for the story and she replies that it should be merry.

Mam. Merry, or sad, shall't be?

Her. As merry as you will.

Mam. A sad tale's best for winter.

Despite the fact that sadness is better suited for the situation, Hermione prefers a happier option. This is characteristic of her as we'll see later on. When she's accused and imprisoned by Leontes she responds with optimism and poise. She will later say

There's some ill planet reigns;
I must be patient, till the heavens look
With an aspect more favorable. (105-107)

and this is her attitude throughout the ordeal. She refuses to react to her gloomy situation, and prefers to wait until happier times.

The play seems centred upon Leontes and his runaway imagination, the jealousy he cultivates from scant supporting evidence and his other paranoias. Also knowledge in general seems a key theme, and the possibility of too much knowledge

At least the first three acts are centered on Leontes's jealousy. The first act sets up the psychological aspect of it, and the second act is showing the social repercussions of it. Interestingly, he seems to relent somewhat here. Toward the end of the act the social pressure put on him finally starts to break his resolve. He's forced to send someone to the oracle.

I think in those lines Leon is implying that even though he is seeing what everyone else is seeing, he is the only one who can really understand the real meaning behind (ie the affair between his wife and his best friend)? In my text, there is a note saying that in old days it was believed that spider poisoned drinks.

I agree, and my edition also has a similar note. Who's going to go against two notes?

[Charles Darnay]

Going back to what Scher pointed out: it is a "sad tale" a tale - fictitious story. Shortly after is Leontes' speech about his wife's infidelity - a story which the audience knows to be false. His story is a sad tale - based on falsehoods. His speech is also entertaining - as a tale is - filled with such playful literary devices as caesuras and containing very silly analogies as his fishing metaphor. His constant tripping over himself in his lines also takes away from Leontes' speech, hammering in the fact that it is a "tale" - an foreshadow what is to come in Act V (shhhh)

[Quark]

Going back to what Scher pointed out: it is a "sad tale" a tale - fictitious story. Shortly after is Leontes' speech about his wife's infidelity - a story which the audience knows to be false.

I think you're right that there's a parallel between Mamillius's narrative about "sprites and goblins" and Leontes's narrative about supposed infedelity. Both use fantasy and imagination. This brings Mamillius's little story back to the main theme (as it's been deemed so far) in the larger play.

Looking elsewhere, though, what other themes can we find in this act beside rampant imagination? I thought the social implications of Leontes's rage might be one, but I'm sure there are others.

[Virgil]

Going back to what Scher pointed out: it is a "sad tale" a tale - fictitious story. Shortly after is Leontes' speech about his wife's infidelity - a story which the audience knows to be false. His story is a sad tale - based on falsehoods. His speech is also entertaining - as a tale is - filled with such playful literary devices as caesuras and containing very silly analogies as his fishing metaphor. His constant tripping over himself in his lines also takes away from Leontes' speech, hammering in the fact that it is a "tale" - an foreshadow what is to come in Act V (shhhh)

Yes I agree with everyone that this is a sad tale. Despite the ship of state being righted in the end the ramifications of what took place can never be resolved. This is definitely no comedy. Total justice cannot be achieved. What took place cannot be over turned.

[Charles Darnay]

Yes I agree with everyone that this is a sad tale. Despite the ship of state being righted in the end the ramifications of what took place can never be resolved. This is definitely no comedy. Total justice cannot be achieved. What took place cannot be over turned.

while this is true, the only real tragedy is Mamillius' death.

I support the categorization of tragicomedy for this one.

[Quark]

I support the categorization of tragicomedy for this one.

Yeah, the play splits down the middle--half tragedy, half comedy. If it leans in any one direction, it's probably comedy since the play ends with the typical comedy conclusion.

[Virgil]

while this is true, the only real tragedy is Mamillius' death.

I support the categorization of tragicomedy for this one.

Except the many years of estangment of Leontes and Hermione. She is exiled for the central core of her life.

Yeah, the play splits down the middle--half tragedy, half comedy. If it leans in any one direction, it's probably comedy since the play ends with the typical comedy conclusion.

Well, I don't see it down the middle. I see it as leaning mostly to a sadness.

[Quark]

Except the many years of estangment of Leontes and Hermione. She is exiled for the central core of her life.

That's all passed over, though. It belongs to the first three acts, and doesn't enter into the comedy of Acts IV and V much.

Well, I don't see it down the middle. I see it as leaning mostly to a sadness.

One could say that both the Sicily and Bohemia parts of the play are filled with sadness. I think the overwhelming mood of the play does lean in that direction. Yet, the definitions of tragedy and comedy don't come from mood but rather from plot. The comedic plot involves reconciliations, lovers coming together, antagonists being overcome, and a general sense of a society forming around the protagonist(s). The tragic plot is the opposite in which the protagonist is alienated from society and antagonist(s) win out. The mood usually is more upbeat in the comedy, but nothing in the definition of comedy makes it so. I agree that the play is more sad than happy, but that shouldn't obscure the classification of the plot.