D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Virgil]

Actually, both. They’re long and black, Virgil! LOL I have to wonder what kind of mental picture you got when reading.

Black? Hmm, they could have been bruised.

Actually that is an interesting paragraph to look at carefully:

"What do you think you're doing?" she cried in frenzy of indignation. She leaned over him in her night-dress, her two black plaits hanging perpendicular. He hid his face, and took his hands away. As he kneeled to rise, he glanced up the stairs. Mrs. Thomas stood against the banisters, motionless in a trance of horror and remorse. He saw the remorse plainly. Severn turned away his face, and was wild with shame. He saw his landlord kneeling, his hands at his throat, choking, rattling, and gasping. The young man's heart filled with remorse and grief. He put his arms round the heavy man, and raised him, saying tenderly:

"Let me help you up."

What exactly is Severn hiding his face from? And why did she lean over him? What's also iinteresting is that Severn starts talking tenderly to Mr. Thomas. Given the next section, which i haven't posted yet, I can't help feeling that Severn becomes more feamle in his nature, almost taking over for the wife. Just a thought.

[Janine]

Black? Hmm, they could have been bruised.

Why so, nobody dropped a trunk on her? Or maybe Virgil, you could look for a phallic symbol in those braids.

What exactly is Severn hiding his face from? And why did she lean over him? What's also iinteresting is that Severn starts talking tenderly to Mr. Thomas. Given the next section, which i haven't posted yet, I can't help feeling that Severn becomes more feamle in his nature, almost taking over for the wife. Just a thought.

First question - shame at his rash actions perhaps? Choking someone would not be something to be too proud of.

Second question - I think he is down by the floor, when trying to choke poor Mr. Thomas. She would have to lean over to get close to his face.

Third statement: isn't that the irony in the story and the point - his turning sides and now sympathising with the husband?

Taking over the wife's role - interesting and I think it is somewhat true here; Severn certainly becomes nurturing. I think he was kind of nurturing already with the child. I just hope he does not grow plaits; long black ones at that! ....or any other female body parts.....hummm.....

I think Mrs. Thomas is appalled and ashamed of Severn for trying to choke Mr. Thomas. The dropping of the trunk seems incidental to me - certainly they all did not anticipate that happening and only for a split second or two it ran as a thought through Severn's mind since it says something about he knew he liked to be somewhat reckless and take chances. I think any one could be quilty of thinking something would happen and then it actually happening. I laughed once when a friend of mine fell off her bike right near the curb. I know it is terrible now, but she was crawling across this road with her bike dragging behind her, a dozen cars held with people just looking at her in wonder. She was not hurt and the scene was too funny to contain myself. I know; I am awful! She was mad at me for awhile, but the laugh just popped out, uncontrollably; of course then I ran to her aid.

I can see how that would have happened in this instance. I don't think Severn meant to laugh. This instance in this story, also reminds me of my son when he was young. His friend had this girlfriend who was friends with my son, also. One day the guy stopped by and they were both here at my house; the guy got extremely jealous thinking my son was interested in his girl - so they started to duke it out outside my house. My neighbor had to break it up. After that incident, they were even closer friends. I think the girl departed not long after.

Virgil and Quark, you men are hard to figure out. Is fighting a kind of bonding ritual?

[Virgil]

Virgil [/B]and Quark, you men are hard to figure out. Is fighting a kind of bonding ritual?

I think it is, Janine.

I don't know about men, but there are two women right here who fought and now seem to have bonded.

[Janine]

OMG, I been thinking the same thing - about this 'bonding thingie'!

I will write you an email soon, Anti! *smile*; at least we did not choke each other in real life - just cyberspace! *grin*


I have to go and see baby Brooke now....I can't wait to hold her again.

[Janine]

Or push each other down the stairs. I'm especially glad of that because I've fallen down stairs twice this summer. Lucky I didn't break anything and came away unscathed.

Horrors, I would never do that, nor would I choke someone! You better be careful though - falling down stairs, can be downright dangerous - you can get hurt, silly! Slow-up...

Email anytime. Always welcome.

Enjoy your visit with Brooke. I know how much that means to you. Have fun!

Thanks, Antiquarian, we need entirely new emoticons on this site - less hostile ones - take away those angry red faces and replace them with a big hug or handshake. I know we both can still be good friends. Hey, what is it with this Lawrence guy?...he seems to stir people up. I actually think Lawrence made a comment about that once - that people should get stirred up. I will have to find that comment and post it. In retrospect, it might make a few of us really laugh; including the mods.

Seeing Brooke again was like heaven. She is soooo adorable. She grew some and her pretty eyes were open a lot tonight. I will tell you more about the visit and how sweet she is in my email, Anti. I am so happy now to have seen her. She is precious.

[Virgil]

Ok, here's the last section of the story:

"Come," said Severn, full of pity, and gentle as a woman. "Let me help you to bed."

Thomas, leaning heavily on the young man, whose white garments were dabbed with blood and water, stumbled forlornly into his room. There Severn unlaced his boots and got off the remnant of his collar. At this point Mrs. Thomas came in. She had taken her part; she was weeping also.

"Thank you, Mr. Severn," she said coldly. Severn, dismissed, slunk out of the room. She went up to her husband, took his pathetic head upon her bosom, and pressed it there. As Severn went downstairs, he heard the few sobs of the husband, among the quick sniffing of the wife's tears. And he saw Kate, who had stood on the stairs to see all went well, climb up to her room with cold, calm face.

He locked up the house, put everything in order. Then he heated some water to bathe his face, which was swelling painfully. Having finished his fomentations, he sat thinking bitterly, with a good deal of shame.

As he sat, Mrs. Thomas came down for something. Her bearing was cold and hostile. She glanced round to see all was safe. Then:

"You will put out the light when you go to bed, Mr. Severn," she said, more formally than a landlady at the seaside would speak. He was insulted: any ordinary being would turn off the light on retiring. Moreover, almost every night it was he who locked up the house, and came last to bed.

"I will, Mrs. Thomas," he answered. He bowed, his eyes flickering with irony, because he knew his face was swollen.

She returned again after having reached the landing.

"Perhaps you wouldn't mind helping me down with the box," she said, quietly and coldly. He did not reply, as he would have done an hour before, that he certainly should not help her, because it was a man's job, and she must not do it. Now, he rose, bowed, and went upstairs with her. Taking the greater part of the weight, he came quickly downstairs with the load.

"Thank you; it's very good of you. Good-night," said Mrs. Thomas, and she retired.

In the morning Severn rose late. His face was considerably swollen. He went in his dressing-gown across to Thomas's room. The other man lay in bed, looking much the same as ever, but mournful in aspect, though pleased within himself at being coddled.

"How are you this morning?" Severn asked.

Thomas smiled, looked almost with tenderness up at his friend.

"Oh, I'm all right, thanks," he replied.

He looked at the other's swollen and bruised cheek, then again, affectionately, into Severn's eyes.

"I'm sorry"--with a glance of indication--"for that," he said simply. Severn smiled with his eyes, in his own winsome manner.

"I didn't know we were such essential brutes," he said. "I thought I was so civilised . . ."

Again he smiled, with a wry, stiff mouth. Thomas gave a deprecating little grunt of a laugh.

"Oh, I don't know," he said. "It shows a man's got some fight in him."

He looked up in the other's face appealingly. Severn smiled, with a touch of bitterness. The two men grasped hands.

To the end of their acquaintance, Severn and Thomas were close friends, with a gentleness in their bearing, one towards the other. On the other hand, Mrs. Thomas was only polite and formal with Severn, treating him as if he were a stranger.

Kate, her fate disposed of by her "betters", passed out of their three lives

.

There's actually a lot here I think to discuss. We see more catagorically that Severn has taken a female role: "Come," said Severn, full of pity, and gentle as a woman. "Let me help you to bed." It's no accident that he's taking him to bed. And we have the blood coming out of Mr. Thomas and onto Severn, a symbolic loss of shared innoence. I still find Mrs. Thomas's behavior odd:

"Thank you, Mr. Severn," she said coldly. Severn, dismissed, slunk out of the room. She went up to her husband, took his pathetic head upon her bosom, and pressed it there. As Severn went downstairs, he heard the few sobs of the husband, among the quick sniffing of the wife's tears. And he saw Kate, who had stood on the stairs to see all went well, climb up to her room with cold, calm face.

Why is she thanking him? He just beat up her husband? And again we see her seeking a sort of redemption for guilt. It has to be a sort of subconscious guilt because I still don't see what exactly she is guilty of. And she gets extremely formal with Severn. Whatever sexual tension had existed is long gone.

"You will put out the light when you go to bed, Mr. Severn," she said, more formally than a landlady at the seaside would speak. He was insulted: any ordinary being would turn off the light on retiring. Moreover, almost every night it was he who locked up the house, and came last to bed.

It's as if she felt guilty for her subconscous "flirting" (or was it more than flirting?) with Severn and now better be on the most strictest of decorum.

Here's an interesting thing:

"Perhaps you wouldn't mind helping me down with the box," she said, quietly and coldly. He did not reply, as he would have done an hour before, that he certainly should not help her, because it was a man's job, and she must not do it. Now, he rose, bowed, and went upstairs with her. Taking the greater part of the weight, he came quickly downstairs with the load.

Before the fight he would not have had Mrs Thomas help him with the trunk "because it was a man's job." Wasn't Severn the one arguing for women's rights earlier that evening? But what's really curious is that in helping him, Mrs. Thomas takes on the man's role. Mr. Thomas was just heard to be sobbing (some neanderthal! ) and now his wife is doing his work, and Severn has just been taking on the role of a woman. It's all rather odd, and I'm not sure what significance it has. But Lawrence does use this sort of swapping of gender roles frequently in his works.

And then in the morning, the two men meet at Thomas' bed:

In the morning Severn rose late. His face was considerably swollen. He went in his dressing-gown across to Thomas's room. The other man lay in bed, looking much the same as ever, but mournful in aspect, though pleased within himself at being coddled.

"How are you this morning?" Severn asked.

Thomas smiled, looked almost with tenderness up at his friend.

"Oh, I'm all right, thanks," he replied.

He looked at the other's swollen and bruised cheek, then again, affectionately, into Severn's eyes.

Is this more than bonding? There is this tendency for Lawrence to describe bonding men in a homosexual way. Lawrence has been accused of being secretly gay.

And then the conclusion:

He looked up in the other's face appealingly. Severn smiled, with a touch of bitterness. The two men grasped hands.

The experience concludes with bitterness and satisfaction, an experience which has pushed the two beyond innocence, at least for Severn.

And then the tag ending, which I think is superfluous, but nonetheless there:

To the end of their acquaintance, Severn and Thomas were close friends, with a gentleness in their bearing, one towards the other. On the other hand, Mrs. Thomas was only polite and formal with Severn, treating him as if he were a stranger.

Kate, her fate disposed of by her "betters", passed out of their three lives.

Perhaps the three lives have changed. Mrs. Thomas again lives with proper decorum.

[Dark Muse]

Why is she thanking him? He just beat up her husband? And again we see her seeking a sort of redemption for guilt. It has to be a sort of subconscious guilt because I still don't see what exactly she is guilty of. And she gets extremely formal with Severn. Whatever sexual tension had existed is long gone.

The way in which she said "Thank you" and the fact that it caused Severn to slink out of the room feeling dismissed, I do not think it was exzactly warm and genuine thanks or true feeling of gratitude. I did not find it that odd, but she probably saw no point in scolding Severn or cotninuing hostility further, as he was already remoseful for what he did. I think her thanks was just a curt and polite response to his tending to her husband after the fight. But I do not think she was expressing any real gratitiude.

It's as if she felt guilty for her subconscous "flirting" (or was it more than flirting?) with Severn and now better be on the most strictest of decorum.

Yes, I think she was feeling guilty for the way in which she carried on with Severn, and perhaps for the way she had previously treated her husband.

Before the fight he would not have had Mrs Thomas help him with the trunk "because it was a man's job." Wasn't Severn the one arguing for women's rights earlier that evening? But what's really curious is that in helping him, Mrs. Thomas takes on the man's role. Mr. Thomas was just heard to be sobbing (some neanderthal! ) and now his wife is doing his work, and Severn has just been taking on the role of a woman. It's all rather odd, and I'm not sure what significance it has. But Lawrence does use this sort of swapping of gender roles frequently in his works.

I always felt that Severn's views toward women and women rights were a bit sketchy and contradictory to start with. It seems there were many occasions in which he was changing his poistion and his views. Though he will verbally argue for women, his actions and thoughts do not always support that. As well it was when Mrs. Thomas, was "the damsel in distress" with the storm, showing her vulnrablity that Severn seemed most moved by her.

I also think here Severn is just too much in a state of shock to think of such things.

But it is odd, the way in which Severn has come now to take more of a woman's role. Though I do think that Mrs. Thomas, always from the begining wore the pants in the family so to speak.

Is this more than bonding? There is this tendency for Lawrence to describe bonding men in a homosexual way. Lawrence has been accused of being secretly gay.

I do not think that it is meant to be homosexual, at least not in the way in which we think of such today. Though the fight scene and aftereffects of the fight do have something of a homo-erotic feeling, I do not think it was meant to be quite that. But rather I think it is intended to be more along the lines of the Blutbrüderschaft, the Blood-brotherhood. The need for men to bond with each other and connect to each. But I do not think it is intended to be in a sexual way, the way in which a man and a woman would have a relationship together. I think it is something apart from that.

[Janine]

The way in which she said "Thank you" and the fact that it caused Severn to slink out of the room feeling dismissed, I do not think it was exzactly warm and genuine thanks or true feeling of gratitude. I did not find it that odd, but she probably saw no point in scolding Severn or cotninuing hostility further, as he was already remoseful for what he did. I think her thanks was just a curt and polite response to his tending to her husband after the fight. But I do not think she was expressing any real gratitiude.

Dark Muse,I think for once I am totally agreeing with you; will wonders ever cease on this thread? hehehe.

I agree, I think Mrs. Thomas is merely removing herself from the circle or triangle of the three and now standing back and viewing their actions. She also must be in some shock, seeing Severn choking her husband and now coming to his aid. Who would not be in shock at such a scene? I think she is merely being polite and trying to keep hold of the peace as well. Of course no one would want anymore confrontations at this point. Remember too that Kate had to come and intervene and break it up.

Yes, I think she was feeling guilty for the way in which she carried on with Severn, and perhaps for the way she had previously treated her husband.

I think so too. I think now she can see it is serious business and not something to toy with. Before, during the thunderstorm she was kind of toying with Severn and that even extended to the table when the two seemed to be snickering at her husband's story telling. Another thing to keep in mind, is even if the man has a dull job, or is 'puffed up' about his position; probably he is just the opposite in reality - feels somewhat 'insecure' about himself. To keep in mind, is that he is the bread-winner here; so even if, Mrs. Thomas wears the pants, so to speak in the household, the man wears them at his serious profession.

I always felt that Severn's views toward women and women rights were a bit sketchy and contradictory to start with. It seems there were many occasions in which he was changing his poistion and his views. Though he will verbally argue for women, his actions and thoughts do not always support that. As well it was when Mrs. Thomas, was "the damsel in distress" with the storm, showing her vulnrablity that Severn seemed most moved by her.

That actually, sounds like a good description of Lawrence himself. He often contradicted himself or seemed to. It is something of great debate among scholars. It is no wonder, that it does surface in his writing often. His fears about women go deep and back to his childhood/boyhood, with his 'overbearing mother' influence. That is a whole territory, in itself, to talk about. I think if you read "Sons and Lovers", you would get the idea. In that novel also, Clara's husband and Paul come to blows and then after have a similar type bonding, with Paul nurturing Clara's husband; then Clara seems to stand asside. The men form the bond and the woman is left outside, as Mrs. Thomas is here. In the play, I just saw on DVD, the Widowing of "Mrs. Holroyd", a very similar dynamic occurs, both in the middle of the play and at the end. In the middle the two men - young male and the husband come to blows and then the husband passes out from drinking; the younger man asks for a basin and cleans the face and hair of the older man, thus a kind of bonding; although the husband is unaware of this action. The younger man states he is doing it because he would want him to do so towards him, if circumstances were reversed. I don't want to give away the ending of the play, so I won't say how that reflects this idea as well.

I also think here Severn is just too much in a state of shock to think of such things.

I agree. I don't in one minute think this bonding is sexual in nature. It is more like the bonding we saw in "The Blind Man" and other stories with males bonding or understanding each other.

But it is odd, the way in which Severn has come now to take more of a woman's role. Though I do think that Mrs. Thomas, always from the begining wore the pants in the family so to speak.

I addressed this above. In the house I would agree; but the husband is the true bread-winner, although she has the care of the house and children, which can be just as tough, if not more so.

I do not think that it is meant to be homosexual, at least not in the way in which we think of such today. Though the fight scene and aftereffects of the fight do have something of a homo-erotic feeling, I do not think it was meant to be quite that. But rather I think it is intended to be more along the lines of the Blutbrüderschaft, the Blood-brotherhood. The need for men to bond with each other and connect to each. But I do not think it is intended to be in a sexual way, the way in which a man and a woman would have a relationship together. I think it is something apart from that.

DM, you stated this very well; I agree wholeheartedly with this idea of the Blutbrüderschaft (you must have looked up this word's spelling ;I would not even attempt it ). Even the mention of blood indicates this idea, doesn't it? Virgil pointed that out; I had not thought much about that on a conscious level.

Quote by Antiquarian

She’s a bit too remorseful, isn’t she? Perhaps Lawrence was just highlighting the fact that “the old Adam” exists in all of us. I mean, he husband could have been killed. He wasn’t seriously injured, but it could have gone the other way.

I agree. I think though more was going on earlier, that did not meet the eye; I think that most likely Mrs. Thomas admired and felt some attraction towards Severn - sort of like in a fantasy way; not acted on or even thinking to act on. One can dream and certainly look; she had eyes and saw his appeal.
I think this stair scene has totally put an end to Mrs. Thomas' dreams or fantasies. It has brought her quite down to earth and back to the reality of her situation of being married, with children to think about as well. It is a harsh awakening for her.



Originally Posted by Virgil

Is this more than bonding? There is this tendency for Lawrence to describe bonding men in a homosexual way. Lawrence has been accused of being secretly gay.

Quote by Antiquarian

I know nothing about Lawrence’s sexual preferences, but in this story, I see this as just male bonding, not homosexual in any way.

I agree with Dark Muse and Antiquarian here; I don't see this as a sexual bonding; I see it just as Dark Muse has stated above about the 'blood-brotherhood.' I also think suddenly Mr. Thomas, who was kind of cocky earlier has been cowed by the whole confrontation. Now he is like the wife was during the thunderstorm - vulnerable and in a weakened state - therefore Severn takes over to nurture him and coddle him back to health. This begins the male bonding between them. Mr. Thomas becomes the underdog but Severn also demoted himself by giving into his own primal instincts to fight the man back and then go as far as try to choke him. This put them both on more level ground so they could bond. In their bonding, Mrs. Thomas is naturally excluded.

One thing I did notice was that Severn “bowed” to Mrs. Thomas several times. That indicates his subjugation to the female sex, I think.

I think that is true also. Good observation, Antiquarian.

All in all, it was a comedic story with much deeper, darker undertones. I thought it was very good.

Exactly as I see it, also.

Quote by Antiquarian

I’m glad you had a great time, Janine and I look forward to hearing about it. I'm sure Brooke is just gorgeous.

Thanks, Anti, Yes, she is soooooo adorable. I keep thinking of her and holding her so long last night as she slept. She is precious. Can't wait to show you new photos; some she is looking around with her big beautiful eyes. You know how grandmas are! I need a 'Brag Book'.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse,I think for once I am totally agreeing with you; will wonders ever cease on this thread? hehehe.

Yes, it is getting scary.

DM, you stated this very well; I agree wholeheartedly with this idea of the Blutbrüderschaft (you must have looked up this word's spelling ;I would not even attempt it ). Even the mention of blood indicates this idea, doesn't it? Virgil pointed that out; I had not thought much about that on a conscious level.

\

Hehe yes, I did have to look up how to spell the word.

Yes, that is true, I did not think of that, but Virgil did point out the exchange of blood between Severn and Mr. Thomas, which could be a physical manifestation of the blood-brotherhood, as it is after this they are able to become great friends to each other.

I also felt that his moment was a long time building, as previously it mentioned that the men were often hostile to each other. I think they just needed this release of energy and emotion. It freed something in themselves. Perhaps there was resentment on the part of Mr. Thomas, and perhaps Severn felt he had to challenge the older man to try and establish some dominance of his own.

But after it was over, there differences were settled. I think this is common in men. That after one large blow out, they are more able to reconcile with each other and put there differences behind them. Where I think it is more typical of women to hold grudges and be slower to come to a complete reconciliation.

I addressed this above. In the house I would agree; but the husband is the true bread-winner, although she has the care of the house and children, which can be just as tough, if not more so.

Yes he is the bread-winner, but by "wear the pants" when I use the phrase I meant mainly that she more or less was the "boss" it seems to me that the household is at her beck and call. Both Severn and Mr. Thomas, it is stated are "humble to her" so Mr. Thomas might make the money, but Mrs. Thomas rules the roost so to speak. It is because of her that Kate is leaving, and her decision on that goes unchallenged by both of the men. Though we do not know what Mr. Thomas might have thought of Kate, we can see the authority of Mrs. Thomas in that action.

As well we can see in the dinner seen when Mr. Thomas comes home, Mrs. Thomas is not excaztly a doting wife. She already had supper and leaves him to sit and eat alone, and she verbally chastizes him. In the household he does not seem to really hold any power.

[Virgil]

I know nothing about Lawrence’s sexual preferences, but in this story, I see this as just male bonding, not homosexual in any way.

I do not think that it is meant to be homosexual, at least not in the way in which we think of such today. Though the fight scene and aftereffects of the fight do have something of a homo-erotic feeling, I do not think it was meant to be quite that. But rather I think it is intended to be more along the lines of the Blutbrüderschaft, the Blood-brotherhood. The need for men to bond with each other and connect to each. But I do not think it is intended to be in a sexual way, the way in which a man and a woman would have a relationship together. I think it is something apart from that.

I agree. I don't in one minute think this bonding is sexual in nature. It is more like the bonding we saw in "The Blind Man" and other stories with males bonding or understanding each other.

I agree with the three of you. It's just there are a number of these in Lawrence's works, and some go beyond the affection of this story. How about the male nude wrestling scene in Women In Love? It's something that's discussed by lawrence scholars. I can never make heads or tails of it.


On the other question, I see Mrs. Thomas's change at the end as a shutting off of the pre-civilization instinct. The layer of civilization has won out, and she never flirts with any subconscious instincts again. As to the men, they seem to have understood that old adam instinct and are not traumatized by it at all. Only Mrs. Thomas. If I were writing an essay on this story, I would interpret the scenes by the conflict between a civilized layer at odds with a pre-civilization instincts.

It was a good story, though I still think the early scenes are flawed in the total context of the story. The implied relationship of those scenes to the central core of the story in tenuous. But I am continually overwhelmed by Lawrence's writing skills.

[Janine]

I agree with the three of you. It's just there are a number of these in Lawrence's works, and some go beyond the affection of this story. How about the male nude wrestling scene in Women In Love? It's something that's discussed by lawrence scholars. I can never make heads or tails of it.


On the other question, I see Mrs. Thomas's change at the end as a shutting off of the pre-civilization instinct. The layer of civilization has won out, and she never flirts with any subconscious instincts again. As to the men, they seem to have understood that old adam instinct and are not traumatized by it at all. Only Mrs. Thomas. If I were writing an essay on this story, I would interpret the scenes by the conflict between a civilized layer at odds with a pre-civilization instincts.

It was a good story, though I still think the early scenes are flawed in the total context of the story. The implied relationship of those scenes to the central core of the story in tenuous. But I am continually overwhelmed by Lawrence's writing skills.

Virgil, I would say we need Lawrence here in the flesh, to help us interpret his work. Remember that thread - "Bring Them Back From the Grave"...wow, that would apply with this story. We could all sit around sipping English tea and say humm, Bert, now what exactly was your intention in having black plaits hanging down from Kate's head; or early on in the story, why did they all appear to take interest in that train outside? Why is Kate really leaving? Why this and why that?.... Well, you get the picture - we all would flood poor Bert with a zillion and one questions!

I too am still totally amazed at Lawrence's writing skills and genius - it is overwhelming at times - good word!

I agree with you, about civilized verses pre-civilized; hey, Virgil, you should write a second thesis on that theme.

I just watched part of that scene on You Tube today. One of the offerings was in Spanish - now that was truly different. I do love that scene, (it is so well done and so well photographed), but I never know exactly what to make of it either, in the film or the novel. I think that is a definite example of male bonding at it's deepest point, although it is not a sexual scene at all. I think there again, they do battle with each other as a game/sport; but some of the wrestling is pretty intense and even barbaric. I think this scene epitomises the idea of the return to pre-civilization and the primal instincts within the male. I do think there is a sort of attempt at bonding, but it is unsucessful in the long run. In this scene the bonding is temporary and uneven. For Rupert it seems to exist; for Gerald it is questionable; only an idea that he can't quite grasp.

[Quark]

Actually I had not noticed Mrs. Thomas's reaction in my other reads. Only now do I see this and I wonder too what is going on. She has nothing to be guilty of, certainly not on the surface of things. One would have to believe that Lawrence meant for something to be going on in her subconscious.

The physical pain she might not have meant, but the confrontation she definitely had in mind. Everyone doesn't like the phrase "string along" so I'll avoid it, but clearly she's controlling the situation. First, she ignores her husband to rile him up. Then, she supports her husband to make Severn angry.

If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitied the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.

As the conversation heats up, Lawrence points out that the wife lets it get out of control.

The battle of words had got quieter and more intense. Mrs. Thomas made no move to check it.

Then, she gets the two men together so they can have their confrontation.

"Oh, before you go, do you mind, Mr. Severn, helping Mr. Thomas down with Kate's box?"

Lawrence continues to put the wife in a position of leadership and control.

Mrs. Thomas was quite mistress of the situation; both men were humble before her. She led the way, with a candle, to the third floor.

And,

Mrs. Thomas watched the two figures from above.

Whether this is conscious or subconscious is immaterial. It's clear that the wife is orchestrating the episode. She's perhaps more involved in the fight than the two combatants. That's why she's ashamed.

[Virgil]

One can only attribute it to subconscious, Quark. There is nothing in the text to warrant your claim that "the confrontation she definitely had in mind" and "stinging along." I didn't think she was consciously stringing him along toward a confrontation.

[Quark]

One can only attribute it to subconscious, Quark. There is nothing in the text to warrant your claim that "the confrontation she definitely had in mind" and "stinging along." I didn't think she was consciously stringing him along toward a confrontation.

Well it doesn't matter. That's what I say above. It's clear she was leading the two men no matter what she was aware of.

Edit:
I suppose more what I mean is that it doesn't matter whether she was conscious of her motive for controlling the two men. It does matter whether she's conscious of controlling them, and I think one can see from the quotes I posted above that she is conscious of controlling them. A woman cannot be "mistress of the situation" subconsciously, nor can she wound both men in the conversation subconsciously. It's shown that she does control the men consciously. Now, why she's controlling the men isn't clear. There very well could be a subconscious motive working inside of the wife. And, since the reader isn't privy to that motive, it's a good bet that the wife isn't either. Not being aware of the motive, however, does not absolve her from guilt. She's aware that her actions helped to cause the fight, and her motive for doing so is irrelevant.

[Janine]

Sorry, I had to go way back to answer Dark Muse's post. It got buried a day or so ago (a page, too)

Yes, it is getting scary.

Boo!

Hehe yes, I did have to look up how to spell the word.

DM, I just cheated and copied and pasted yours into my post.

Yes, that is true, I did not think of that, but Virgil did point out the exchange of blood between Severn and Mr. Thomas, which could be a physical manifestation of the blood-brotherhood, as it is after this they are able to become great friends to each other.

And this blood exchange is often seen in Lawrence's work, even his novels. He would indicate the signifance of physically shedding blood to change or purge onself of the old ways. Perhaps in this story he is thinking of the blood being shed as a path back to the old ways - the Old Adam. In the book, "Women in Love", it is only after Birkin is struck on the head and sheds blood and runs into the wilderness to purge himself of the hypocrisy of the upper-classes and their falsity, that he he becomes a new man. He connects with nature and his own primal self. Perhaps he is also connecting with Adam before the expulsion from the "Garden of Eden." Here too the blood would serve two purposes - to free up both men so that their bond would tap into their more primal roles and their Old Adams.

I also felt that his moment was a long time building, as previously it mentioned that the men were often hostile to each other. I think they just needed this release of energy and emotion. It freed something in themselves. Perhaps there was resentment on the part of Mr. Thomas, and perhaps Severn felt he had to challenge the older man to try and establish some dominance of his own.

Apparently, the story suggests that, but from reading about the family Lawrence actually resided with (in two residences), and fashioned this story after, he did not get along poorly with the male. In fact, both the husband and wife liked Lawrence very much and found him quite amusing, at times. I think eventually, the whole scene did sour and Lawrence left the household, because of some strife involving a sort of triangle and jealousy. It may be his intention in this story, to show that they two men were antagnistic towards each other for a time; this I don't have a certainity about, only a very vague impression. The confrontation did definitely free them both up, even within themselves, as you say above. I am not sure about trying to establish a dominance over Mr.Thomas. I don't see that he achieves that at the end as much as an even ground.

But after it was over, there differences were settled. I think this is common in men. That after one large blow out, they are more able to reconcile with each other and put there differences behind them. Where I think it is more typical of women to hold grudges and be slower to come to a complete reconciliation.

Perhaps, DM - it does seem common, at least to me, concerning men. Yes, perhaps some women do hold grudges. I try never to do so; I think holding grudges is a waste of energy and time, and what is the point of it? I do think men are less emotional about things and therefore, can move on after a confrontation and forget it ever happened, or at least pretend to. My son is still friends, to this day, with that guy he had a confrontation with, over the girlfriend. I still laugh at it, but bring it up to my son, and he doesn't want to hear anything about it.

Yes he is the bread-winner, but by "wear the pants" when I use the phrase I meant mainly that she more or less was the "boss" it seems to me that the household is at her beck and call. Both Severn and Mr. Thomas, it is stated are "humble to her" so Mr. Thomas might make the money, but Mrs. Thomas rules the roost so to speak. It is because of her that Kate is leaving, and her decision on that goes unchallenged by both of the men. Though we do not know what Mr. Thomas might have thought of Kate, we can see the authority of Mrs. Thomas in that action.

Yes, I think the text does indicate that Mrs. Severn orchestrated the household. It would probably go back to how controlling Lawrence's own mother was, in his household when growing up. She pretty much did the same thing, trying to keep the house in balance and under her control.

This is still something I am unclear about. Does the text actually ever say, it was Mrs. Thomas' lone decision to expell Kate from the house? Do you know what part of the text states that as a solid fact?

As well we can see in the dinner seen when Mr. Thomas comes home, Mrs. Thomas is not excaztly a doting wife. She already had supper and leaves him to sit and eat alone, and she verbally chastizes him. In the household he does not seem to really hold any power.

Well, she may have supper for him but he did come home extremely late. I don't blame her for not doting on him. He was acting kind of childish himself and she has children to care for as it is. It seems she is quite annoyed at him for coming in late and maybe she does have some grounds for her annoyance. If it happened continually then she might know he is indeed not being truly honest with her. I felt he was not totally honest; perhaps he stopped off at a pub on the way home; this was often the case in households in England. He may hold some power in the fact he rebelled against her and came in when he felt like doing so. This might be his way of holding power for himself.