June / Greece Reading: "Odyssey" by Homer

[Virgil]

I imagine people are beyond the first few books. What do people think of Telemachus as a character? He's certainly not mature enough to be the equal of Odysseus in nature. But is he even up to Achilles? Achilles I believe is actually younger during the Trojan War. What do you think Homer wants us to take away from this character?

[NickAdams]

I imagine people are beyond the first few books. What do people think of Telemachus as a character? He's certainly not mature enough to be the equal of Odysseus in nature. But is he even up to Achilles? Achilles I believe is actually younger during the Trojan War. What do you think Homer wants us to take away from this character?

I'm on the thrid or fourth book, but my thoughts of Telemachus:

[DapperDrake]

I imagine people are beyond the first few books. What do people think of Telemachus as a character? He's certainly not mature enough to be the equal of Odysseus in nature. But is he even up to Achilles? Achilles I believe is actually younger during the Trojan War. What do you think Homer wants us to take away from this character?

I'm in the middle of the fourth book, I'm going pretty slowly as I'm busy with other things.

Well I don't know about Achilles, not having read the Iliad, but I guess Telemachus must be about 20. Without having had a father figure its not surprising that he hasn't hardened and matured as many other young princes would of by his age.
I would say Telemachus is the best he could be in the circumstances, but I think Homer stresses Telemachus' immature characteristics because it fits with the story, after all he has been putting up with the suitors all this time where as I can't imagine your average Greek hero doing so. Telemachus' immaturity is an necessary plot device, without it the urgency for Odysseus to return isn't there and neither is the triumph of his eventual return.

[_Shannon_]

Is there anyone reading this onth who read Papillion?? If so- anyone feel like Papillion is somewhat a re-telling of the Odyssey?

[DapperDrake]

No that didn't occur to me at all, I can see where you're coming from but to be honest i've already put Papillon out of my mind. Apart from the superficial similarity of trials at sea and being waylaid on various islands I don't think there is really anything there.

What I don't fully understand, and possibly because I haven't read the Iliad, is why Athena is going to such lengths to help Odysseus? It's been hinted that the Greeks offended her in some significant way when they left Troy and that the trials they experianced returning were largly due to her, and now here she is bending over backwards to ensure Odysseus gets home.
The Greek gods do seem a bit whimsical and fickle as a rule but it seems odd.

[Drkshadow03]

I've been reading through the comments and I wanted to make a couple of remarks.

The Greek gods and goddesses are different from our understanding of the term G-d in Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture; these gods as a general rule don't care for human beings like the Abrahamic G-d. True, they occassionally care about individual humans, but for the most part humans are pathetic creatures there to serve and glorify the gods. Theos that we translate as gods perhaps should remain untranslated; they almost function as a third species: humans, animals, theos (gods) rather than as divine beings as we understand it.

[JBI]

I'm on the thrid or fourth book, but my thoughts of Telemachus:

Keep in mind though, his father has been gone since he was a little child, and he barely knows him. He is trapped between loyalty to his father, who everyone thinks dead, and the fact that people are constantly making passes as his mother, which shows the distortion of power in Ithaca, as well as the fact that he is isolated from everybody.

[papayahed]

Keep in mind though, his father has been gone since he was a little child, and he barely knows him. He is trapped between loyalty to his father, who everyone thinks dead, and the fact that people are constantly making passes as his mother, which shows the distortion of power in Ithaca, as well as the fact that he is isolated from everybody.

I've just finished the first four books and I agree, give the kid a break.

Although I have to admit all the "niceties" and adoration of each other gets a little much.

I read Papillon and besides both men trying to get home I don't see much of a connection but I want to finish The Odyssey before I stick my foot in my mouth.

[Drkshadow03]

Some of you might find this preview of an online book useful: Epic: an introduction. It has a whole section on The Odyssey and answers some of the questions raised here.

[manolia]

I've been reading through the comments and I wanted to make a couple of remarks.

The Greek gods and goddesses are different from our understanding of the term G-d in Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture; these gods as a general rule don't care for human beings like the Abrahamic G-d. True, they occassionally care about individual humans, but for the most part humans are pathetic creatures there to serve and glorify the gods. Theos that we translate as gods perhaps should remain untranslated; they almost function as a third species: humans, animals, theos (gods) rather than as divine beings as we understand it.

Quite true. Greek gods are whimsical and share a whole list of traits which make them look like human beings (more than gods). I don't agree with the translation part though. God (Θεός, theos) and gods (Θεοί, thei) is the only way to translate it. The greek word theos comes from the verb "θέομαι" (theome) which means "run fast" or from the verb "Θέω" (theo) which means overlook (not sure how to translate this one)..so as you can see it has little to do with the concept of the divine (unless you stretch your imagination a bit ). So you are quite right in your last statement.

What I don't fully understand, and possibly because I haven't read the Iliad, is why Athena is going to such lengths to help Odysseus? It's been hinted that the Greeks offended her in some significant way when they left Troy and that the trials they experianced returning were largly due to her, and now here she is bending over backwards to ensure Odysseus gets home.
The Greek gods do seem a bit whimsical and fickle as a rule but it seems odd.

Greeks destroyed one of her temples in Troy thus Athena resents them.
Athena always liked Odysseus because he is very clever and wise (the word used to describe him in Iliad and Odyssey is "πολυμήχανος" which is a combound word: very+machine which means the person who is very clever and finds solutions and tricks in every situation..gee i am not much of a translator).
Poseidon hates Odysseus.

[NickAdams]

Keep in mind though, his father has been gone since he was a little child, and he barely knows him. He is trapped between loyalty to his father, who everyone thinks dead, and the fact that people are constantly making passes as his mother, which shows the distortion of power in Ithaca, as well as the fact that he is isolated from everybody.

I wonder what Freud thought of this. Is the Oedipus complex dependent on the presence of the father? Without Odysseus around, Telemachus didn't have a figure to imitate or compete against in order to develop; however, nature seems to be favored over nurture in the Odyssey. Telemachus is told, numerous times, that if he is truly the son of his father blah blah blah.

Although I have to admit all the "niceties" and adoration of each other gets a little much.

I have to agree. One can make a living off of the hospitality (food, lodging gifts etc).

[NickAdams]

Does anyone know why the gods demand a hecatomb?

[DapperDrake]

nope, I guess its more of an excuse for a giant party.

Did anyone else get the impression that Telemachus is gay? or am I just reading that in?

[Joyeuse]

Hmmm. In response to DapperDrake, I think Telemachus seems to be gay to us in the epic because the Greeks had a kind of flamboyant culture (with pederasty and such) compared to most modern-day cultures, so he probably just seems this way because of our imaginations.
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I thought it was so interesting the way the oral culture shaped the work. The epithets especially; it seems so different from a lot of the literature I've read (keep in mind I haven't read the Iliad.) In fact, there is a popular theory by a man named Parry stating that, not only were their multiple authors who wrote the work of The Odyssey, but these authors actually improvised the entire thing (though they did steal bits and pieces from each other, making certain parts fomulaic.)

I am glad there weren't many works written this way, though. I thought the structure of the epic wasn't very good. It seemed to me like they should have told the story of Odysseus facing the Cyclops, Scylla and Charybdis, and other monsters like that instead of talking so much about Telemachus and Odysseus's journey after the really intense action sequences. Then again, maybe I'm just some ADD lunatic ravaged by our modern-day culture and the Greeks were more patient and less demanding of action.
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Does anyone know what was going on when Homer kept on referring to the good shepherd that helped Odysseus as "you?" I read the Fagle translation, which, by the way, has an amazing introduction

[DapperDrake]

Did only two people make it through the book then? Oh well.

I did get the impression that Telemachus and Nestor's son (can't remember his name, pisistratus?) were more than just friends, I think that was strongly hinted at in the book. I do wonder if Homer was trying to make some sort of point with it.
I realise homosexuality was common place in ancient Greece, normal even, but I wonder what connotations it has in the story.