The Winter's Tale - Act I

[Scheherazade]

This summer we will be reading and discussing The Winter's Tale. Please post your comments on Act I in this thread.

Scene I

Scene II

[Virgil]

Yay!! Winter's Tale won. Now I'll have to dig out my Shakespeare.

[papayahed]

HEY!!!!! I missed the vote!!!!

[Scheherazade]

Gee, I wish someone gave me a KitKat everytime you say that, Papaya!

[Janine]

me too! That reminds me, I think I need something sweet to eat right now.

I will have to dig out my audio CD's and start listening tonight; refresh my memory. Wow, this should be fun!

[Nossa]

I've never read that one. I'll try to join in, though my eyes aren't well still, but I'll try to read as much as I can.

[JBI]

Er, if I recall "Shakespeare the Invention of the Human" Bloom tries to drift away from the Romance title, and place them as tragicomedies.

[JBI]

Ah yes, you are right, he seems to try to reject the title, but eventually ends up agreeing with it. I was mixing his book up with the much thinner volume of Shakespeare criticism by Northrop Frye, entitled Northrop Frye on Shakespeare, though Frye eventually accepts the category of romance as the inevitable label (a rather interesting read when compared to Bloom's, though Bloom claims him as one of his major influences, their views on Shakespeare are almost completely different). Pastoral Lyric seems about true for 1/3-1/2 of the play, while the others I would term high drama. Surely the High Mimetic mode of the first half goes against the pastoral nature of the second half that this play makes this play extremely difficult to place, relative to the other works. It would be fair to say that both Bloom and Frye are correct, as are other critics, though such genre labels are rather futile since this is one of Shakespeare's more experimental, and unique plays, and offers a vaster range than most of his other plays, because of the time lapse in the middle.

[sofia82]

Oh, it finished at last.

[Nightshade]

*cracks knuckles* better get cracking then....

HEY!!!!! I missed the vote!!!!

Again?!

[Janine]

I have Bloom's Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human, and Bloom doesn't list any of the plays as tragicomedies.

He calls "A Winter's Tale" a "pastoral lyric."

It is listed under "Late Romances." The full list of "Late Romances" is:

Pericles
Cymbeline
The Winter's Tale
The Tempest
Henry VIII
The Two Noble Kinsmen

Could you be thinking of another book by Bloom?

Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays - they all seem to differ in their opinions on the subject. I think there are fine lines here between all types of plays -comedical/tragedical/pastoral/historical - that is just my own personal thought and always has been. Everyone of Shakespeare's so called Comedies contain elements of each in my opinion. When the tragerians come to entertain Hamlet, Polonius rattles off this line referring to the newly arrived players and what they have to offer:

The best actors in the world, either for tragedy, comedy, history, pastoral, pastoral-comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical, tragical-comedical-historical-pastoral, scene individable, or poem unlimited: Seneca cannot be too heavy nor Plautus too light. For the law of writ and the liberty, these are all the only men.

I thought this interesting, (helps to be watching and reading Hamlet presently, Anti will get what I mean here) because of all the categories, or mixed categories spoken in this excerpt and these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. As Polonius reads this off, it is a rather humorous part of the play - quite comical. In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work?

I am not sure what is meant exactly, by that last line. I have only a vague idea; the beginning of it seems to sum things up and the part -'the only men' he is referring to the players.


Antiquarian, you wrote this before, the above passage I quoted from you:

I would call the play a tragicomedy, but I have to bow to Bloom's superior expertise.

I don't know - why must you do so? I have heard so much debate on this subject, online and in books; I don't think one has to actually decide, one way or the other; nor bow to one scholar's opinion. Just because one is a scholar does not mean they are 100% correct. I think the choice should be individual anyway. I know I read "Pericles" and I would never call that pastoral, pastoral-lyric, or late romance....I felt it had some very tragic elements or at least very sad throughout most of that play. In fact, in my own book, it is listed under the tragedies.

There's been some debate already over whether this is a comedy or a tragedy. I think both Janine and I agree that it's more of a tragicomedy.

I have a book by Harold Bloom that lists it as a "late romance."

In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into. I may have started this discussion by mentioning, some serious or tragic areas of this particular play. When I first listened to this play, on audiofile, a year or so ago, I felt it had a very sad tone to it. I was then wondering why in-the-world, it was called a 'comedy' in my own book. I admit my book is an older version without any true commentary added.
When I read all the histories, a few years ago, I finally concluded that some of those actually were also tragedies, so I guess then, they could be as Polonius was reading off his paper from the players, as 'tragical-historical'. Now for my own satisfaction, I think I will call this play "The Winter's Tale" -'tragical-comedical-pastoral' That seems to sum it all up!

[Equality72521]

YAY! I think I'm going to have to dig through my Shakespeare pile for the play....that might take a while...

[kasie]

[QUOTE=Janine;585734]Antiquarian and JBI, I have always been confused about the categories and how scholars go about labeling Shakespeare's plays.....these are actually Shakespeare's own words; therefore, I wondered if they reflect how he felt about his plays and the idea of placing them into specific categories. Reading this, it seems to me as though he realises and is trying to convey, that they all overlap in category, within each play. ...In this moment with Polonius, was Shakespeare poking some fun at categorising his body of work? ....In the end, I think it is probably insignificant as to just what category it is placed into....QUOTE]

How about we just get on and read the play? We can perhaps come to some conclusion after having read it, rather than before.

To start the ball rolling:

Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.

Act I sc ii: Polixenes proposes to return home and at first refuses to be persuded by Leontes to stay a little longer. Leontes calls on his wife, Hermione, to add her voice to his persuasions but when she is successful in changing Polixenes' mind, becomes suspicious of the warm relationship between his wife and his friend. He questions Camillo as to the general opinion of the relationship but is not convinced by Camillo's surprised denial of any obvious infidelity. Leontes convinces Camillo of Polixenes' guilt and Camillo ofers to take advantage of being cup-bearer to the visitor and poison him. Leontes accepts the offer but when he has gone, Camillo reveals the plan to an astounded Polixenes; together they plan to flee the Sicilian court.

What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?

[sofia82]

Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.

Act I-i seems to me as an introduction to both Bohemia and Sicilia.
In the introduction to the play in The Riverside Shakespeare it is said,

"The first three acts of The Winter's Tale are a dramatization of the corresonding portion of Robert Greene's novel Pandosto, ... This romantic proclaims as its purpose the displaying of the evils of jeoulsy."

But the interesting is that Shakespeare reverses the characters as it is stated

Greene's jealous king, Pandosto of Bohemia, is changed into leontes of Sicilia, ... and Shakespeare's reason for switching the countries is a matter of some critical interest.

What do you think of this switching of characters?

Another source I found in Wikipedia

One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

An idea, Can we post different pictures of The Winter's Tale'sperformances in another Thread, It can be good for stage direction and discussion of the characters. What is your idea?

[Janine]

Act I-i seems to me as an introduction to both Bohemia and Sicilia.
In the introduction to the play in The Riverside Shakespeare it is said,

sophia, I find all of this source material you have dug up online interesting. I am usually big on using other sources of research to add to my own understanding of the play or story. I did not requote you here (others can read your post above); but, I think that is about accurate. I did read online, something similar, as to the 'introduction' and the purpose of the opening/introduction of the play. If I can find what I read again I will post it to add to your ideas.

But the interesting is that Shakespeare reverses the characters as it is stated

That part is interesting. I don't think it that unusual that Shakespeare or any author of the day has drawn from other stories, legends, histories, characters in order to create his own play with these elements. There is always conjecture on all of Shakespeare's plays as to the origins of the ideas that took form in the genius playwrite's mind.

What do you think of this switching of characters?

I think often authors will do this. I have seen it before in stories that were suggested by other stories of an earlier origin. I think the switching of the characters may be significant, in a political sense, but I don't know enough about the politics in Shakespeare's time, to determine why he would switch them. I do think it is clever of Shakespeare.

Another source I found in Wikipedia

One modern historian, Eric Ives, believes that the play is really a parody of the fall of Queen Anne Boleyn, who was beheaded on false charges of adultery on the orders of her husband Henry VIII in 1536. There are numerous parallels between the two stories - including the fact that one of Henry's closest friends, Sir Henry Norreys, was beheaded as one of Anne's supposed lovers and he refused to confess in order to save his life – claiming that everyone knew the Queen was innocent. If this theory is followed then Perdita becomes a dramatic presentation of Anne's only daughter, Queen Elizabeth I.

I don't know if he is stretching his theory here but it certainly is a fascinating one. I never thought of the connecting when I first experienced the play (listened to it on audiofile). The wife is indeed falsely accused. There are definite parallels and all this would have occurred during or after Shakespeare's life. Elizabeth I sat on the throne of england during the time of Shakespeare. She often attended his performances. Perdita may represent Elizabeth in a sense, so maybe Shakespeare is trying to make a statement in this play. I happened to just see the HBO miniseries film last night "Elizabeth I" and I have to tell you, there were many supposed lovers who got the axe in those days. If you shone in the light of the Queen's favors all was rosy, but cross her and that could easily be your downfall. One tread a very thin line with serving all monarchs of that time.

Here is some additional information that I found online in Sparknotes:

SparkNotes –The Winter’s Tale

The Winter's Tale is one of Shakespeare's final plays. Composed and performed around 1610-11, it joins Pericles, Cymbeline, and The Tempest in the list of genre-defying later plays that are usually referred to as romances, or tragicomedies. Each of these productions has a happy ending that sets them apart from earlier histories and tragedies, but each emphasizes the danger and power of evil in the world, and death, while never finally victorious, is an ever-present force in the stories......

I left a small bit of text out of the end of this because I thought it might be a spoiler to those who have not yet read the play.

There is no one source for The Winter's Tale, although Shakespeare relies heavily on the works of Richard Greene, a London writer in the 1580s and '90s. (Greene may have been the author of a 1592 pamphlet attacking Shakespeare, which makes the Bard's borrowings from the deceased writer particularly appropriate.) From Pandosto, Greene's 1588 prose romance, Shakespeare borrowed most of the characters and events of the first three acts; and the character and habits of Autolycus seem to be drawn from Greene's pamphlet accounts of criminals in Elizabethan London. The story of the abandoned royal baby, meanwhile, owes much to popular folklore of the time, and the seasonal themes touched on in Act IV echo Ovid's

Metamorphoses--Perdita is associated with Proserpina, whose emergence from the Underworld in Greek myth was supposed to herald the return of spring. Finally, the resurrection of Hermione in Act V owes an obvious debt to the Pygmalion story, in which a sculptor's work comes to life through divine intervention.

In terms of strength of character, unity of plot, and audience satisfaction, The Winter's Tale may be the best of the later romances, and it has been a favorite of directors and audiences down to the present day.

Here is the link to the Sparknotes commentary online:
http://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare/winterstale/

An idea, Can we post different pictures of The Winter's Tale'sperformances in another Thread, It can be good for stage direction and discussion of the characters. What is your idea?

I would think making up a new thread would be your best bet. I think it would be great to make one up of all of Shakespeares performances on stage or screen in one separate thread, like a general 'Shakespeare Performance' thread perhaps. That would be truly entertaining and enlightening. Do you want to start that thread, sophia? I love stage and screen performances of Shakespeare particularly, so count me in. I know I can come up with some great photos; I copy them all the time for my own files. We could collaborate on getting it launched, if you want or if you need any help I would be glad to help out; just email me on here, if interested.

I have several ideas for visual threads, myself; I may be acting on those by the weekend.

How about we just get on and read the play? We can perhaps come to some conclusion after having read it, rather than before.

kasie, yes I agree - we do need to get on with the story. It really makes no difference to understanding the story to categorize it precisely. We were just discussing this idea before the discussion got rolling and while everyone was still reading the text. I know I have to review it myself.

To start the ball rolling:

Act I Sc i: Sets the scene - Polixenes, King of Bohemia, has been on an extended visit to his life-long friend, Leontes, King of Sicilia. The friendship between the two monarchs extends to members of their courts as Archidamus of Bohemia extends a warm invitation to Camillo, Leontes' trusted councillor. Though it sounds like one of those courteous and diplomatic invitations that are issued without much thought of it ever being taken up (and we've all issued those from time to time, I'm sure!), it enables Camillo to make a hasty flight in the next scene.

These are your words or quoted from commentary? I would agree that some of it might be political in origin. I think that kind of diplomatic invitations would have existed in the court at that time; they still exist today between diplomates of various countries. It does however seem that Polixenes and Leontes were life-long friends so it was not just diplomatics between them. I will have to review that part of the text. My intention was to listen again to the audiofile last night but it got to late to do so. I will do so tonight; at least Act I.

Act I sc ii: Polixenes proposes to return home and at first refuses to be persuded by Leontes to stay a little longer. Leontes calls on his wife, Hermione, to add her voice to his persuasions but when she is successful in changing Polixenes' mind, becomes suspicious of the warm relationship between his wife and his friend. He questions Camillo as to the general opinion of the relationship but is not convinced by Camillo's surprised denial of any obvious infidelity. Leontes convinces Camillo of Polixenes' guilt and Camillo ofers to take advantage of being cup-bearer to the visitor and poison him. Leontes accepts the offer but when he has gone, Camillo reveals the plan to an astounded Polixenes; together they plan to flee the Sicilian court.

What do you make of Leontes' jealousy? And what do you make of Camillo's behaviour?

I thought Leonetes' jealousy was very rash and unproven and cruel. He did not try the man in question, his supposed friend but went ahead with plans to poison him immediately. I don't know how much more rash one could be. In his rashness he wounds many lives. I think Camillo's behavior was commendable, even though he did oppose his monarch, and the monarch's were suppose to be appointed, or anointed by God. I still think he had a fairness of heart and took the risk to warn Polixenes. I think when Camillo seems to be convinced of the guilt of the two as lovers, in his reply to Leonetes, he is actually playing along with him and all the time knows he will intercept, whatever Leonetes wishes him to do towards the other king. I don't think for one, the killing of a king, from another realm was such a wise political move, in those days - it would only bring on war, and no doubt Camillo knew this and acted on the love of his country. He may also have seen the 'rashness' in Leonetes behavior and felt it would be temporary. To kill a king is a pretty huge offense.