D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Thank you, Janine. It sounds interesting.

DarkMuse, I don't think you're a candidate for being banned from anywhere.

Antiquarian, thanks and so glad I got that accomplished tonight; it took me awhile; sorry didn't get to you PM or V's. I ran out of energy and now I am watching something on DVD to relax.

Dark Muse, Nah, I don't think you could ever be banned; you haven't done anything against the rules. I don't think disagreeing goes against the rules. I think we are a good group and none of us have to worry about being banned, or even warned. Just don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, if you don't like this story; if anyone complains, they get to pick the next one! I will get you back on way or the other.

Maybe, we could refrain this time from hating characters, until we read the story a few times and discuss it in depth. Then we can evaluate all the characters, if need be, at the end. This story is not quite as complex as the last one, and yet I don't think there is one Lawrence character that exists that does not contain some complexity. I think this story has a bit of humor to it, also. At least, I found some of parts and passages amusing.

[Dark Muse]

Maybe, we could refrain this time from hating characters, until we read the story a few times and discuss it in depth.

I cannot make any promoises about that. I am a person who is given to make strong intitial reactions, and those are rarely changed.

[Virgil]

Well, for a change I read the story early, this morning in fact, and let me say i really enjoyed. I need to read it at least another time before i make any comments. And I would also want to get that audio version. Obviously I had read the story many years ago, since my text had some scribbled notes in it, but I didn't remember the story at all. Good choice Janine.

[Janine]

Well, for a change I read the story early, this morning in fact, and let me say i really enjoyed. I need to read it at least another time before i make any comments. And I would also want to get that audio version. Obviously I had read the story many years ago, since my text had some scribbled notes in it, but I didn't remember the story at all. Good choice Janine.

Oh, Virgil, you made my day; thanks so much for saying it was a good choice and so glad you read it already. You are real pal! It didn't take me long to read the story either - it goes along quickly. I will probably read through it again or listen to the audiofile. Can't wait to download that. Should be interesting.

You know it is funny, I am reading Lawrence's " The Virgin and the Gypsy" and I know I read this book years back, but (like you) I can't recall a thing about it; re-reading it is like a whole fresh experience. I am kind of glad of that fact. I also, just read "Love Among the Haystacks" two weeks ago; I loved that novella years back; again, I could hardly recall it.

Thanks again and this should be a good discussion.

[Dark Muse]

I just read the story today, and I enjoyed it. In someways I found it a bit amusing.

[Quark]

I'll take a look at the story tomorrow. When do we start the discussion?

[Janine]

Quote by Dark Muse

I just read the story today, and I enjoyed it. In someways I found it a bit amusing.

Dark Muse, Glad to hear you liked it. Hey, you trying to make me weak in the knees in liking something? I liked the story, too and also I found it amusing, in several parts. One was the slippers and the other was the thought in Syson's mind at what the Mrs had to say. We can discuss both when we get to them. I also thought Lawrence wrote this in a way to be amusing at times. Lawrence was a very funny and witty man himself, not always dead serious. His friends got a real kick out his antics - he was suppose to be the best at Charades and even imitated some famous people and had them all rolling on the floor with laughter.

I'll take a look at the story tomorrow. When do we start the discussion?

Quark, I don't know if Antiquarian has read the story yet; I figured after I had posted this story with the introduction, that I would give it a few days to begin the discussion. This would allow everyone to do their reading. I think that possibly, Pensive will be joining in on this one, since I spoke to her today IM. Now that it is summer, many of the students have the time to come back to this thread and other discussions on the forum. I would say we could start the real discussion, about Thurs or even tomorrow, if all have all read it by then; it is not a very long story and goes along quickly. I hate to rush anyone.

[Dark Muse]

LOL it is usually characters I do not like not stories. I can like a story even if I dislike certain characters, but as far as that goes, I will just say this time I did not truly hate anyone, might have liked some a little less than others, but I am not out to crucify anyone this time around.

[Janine]

I, too, found the story amusing and not nearly as complex as the other Lawrence stories I've read.

I would place it in the middle of stories I like. I wasn't wild about it, but I didn't dislike it, either. I thought the little domestic scene to be very amusing. Sad, in some ways, but also amusing.

I liked the relationship between Severn and Thomas. And I liked both men. Now, Mrs. Thomas, I wasn't so fond of, but I certainly didn't hate her.

I feel this is a lesser story of Lawrence's (for example, Kate seemed just a prop to advance the plot), not as great as "The Witch a la Mode" or "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter," but it should be a fun story to discuss and after the last one, I think we need something a little lighter.

Antiquarian, I would agree with all this; after the last story, that was a real 'mind expander', I thought our brains could use a simplier story and a little break this month. This story is much more straightforward, so we can all relax and enjoy being amused by it. I found the story likable, and in someways it turned out a bit ironic. I liked the way in which Lawrence wrote it; it felt humorous in the manor in which he phrased certain lines. We can take a closer look at that, when we get started on looking directly at the story text. I also thought the lightening storm made for an interesting backdrop to the little drama and friction that takes place. 'Less' can sometimes be just as worthy as 'more'; there are times it is fun just to read for enjoyments sake and I think this story was quite natural at the time for Lawrence to write. This time we won't have to strain our minds too much, to come up with all that complicated symbolism. Presently, we have our task layed out for us in the Chekhov thread, with that heavier discussion of black monks appearing out of thin air; so if this is a lighter discussion, that will be ok with me.

Quote by Dark Muse

LOL it is usually characters I do not like not stories. I can like a story even if I dislike certain characters, but as far as that goes, I will just say this time I did not truly hate anyone, might have liked some a little less than others, but I am not out to crucify anyone this time around.

Good to hear it, DM. This discussion should be a light fun one. I look forward to it.

[Virgil]

Antiquarian, I would agree with all this; after the last story, that was a real 'mind expander', I thought our brains could use a simplier story and a little break this month. This story is much more straightforward, so we can all relax and enjoy being amused by it.

I'm not so sure that this story is as simple as the surface implies. Perhaps it is, but there are some interesting elements to the story that if they connect thematically (and I haven't in my first reading completely comprehended it all) could make this a complex work. For instance, why does Lawrence include the detail of Kate being Jewish, and why is a point made that the Thomas's are protestant and Severn is a lapsed Cathloic? Why is the story titled "The Old Adam"? Why is the little girl, and especially the two scenes, one where he's racing after her and the other where he undresses her for bed, included? What is is going on with the sexual tension between Severn and Mrs. Thomas? Is there is sexual tension between him and Kate, and even perhpas between him and the little girl? If so why? And why do Severn and Mr. Thomas make up at the end so easily? I haven't figured all of this out, but i think those are some of the key questions that will allow us to untangle this story.

[Dark Muse]

I thought at the very begining, when Kate opens the door for him, there might have been some sexual tension between the two of them.

I really do not think anything "unatural" was between him and the girl.

I thought his statement of "She was getting to old for a young man to undress" was a rather natural one to make, I do not think it was sexual, but rather showed instead his more "paternal" feelings toward the girl, becasue he is aware that it is getting to the point where it will no longer be appropraite.

I felt this his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas was natural considering his situation. A young man that has never "been" with a woman before, every day alone in ths house with her, while she is cearly discontented with her husband, and the story remarks that she was attractive. I think almost anyone in that circumstance would begin to develop certain feelings/desires.

[Virgil]

I did not like the fact that he pointed out Kate was Jewish and that made her "look" different. I'm Jewish and I look just like other people. Jewish people are Middle Eastern, African, Western European, Eastern European - we have many, many looks. Not all of us are dark. That's a stereotype. Some Jewish people are naturally blonde and very fair. I just wanted to point that out. I do have very, very dark hair now - naturally, it's lighter than in my photos - but it was blonde as a child. My mother was a strawberry blonde, my father my dark.

Yes I understand. Much early part of the 20th century had these racial notions. It even amounted to shaping o fheads of different races and the supposed implications. You can see references in a lot of early 20th century fiction, maybe even late 19th century fiction. Lawrence was not immune to the ignorant racial theories of his day. (As a side note, hitler's racial theories did not come in a vacuum; they were out there in the general public and not just in Germany but across Europe and even America.) I don't think that's the significance of Kate's Jewishness. He goes out of his way to mention the Protestant and the Cathlolic religons too.

I think Severn's reaction to the little girl was a very normal one for a man of twenty-seven and one who's had no sexual experience. Perhaps it's included to show Severn is a very modest man and one who is very polite.

Severn is young enough, I think, to be sexually attracted to anyone who's good looking.

OK, I thought it was a little more than natural, but when can look into it when we get to the text.

I thought at the very begining, when Kate opens the door for him, there might have been some sexual tension between the two of them.

I really do not think anything "unatural" was between him and the girl.

I thought his statement of "She was getting to old for a young man to undress" was a rather natural one to make, I do not think it was sexual, but rather showed instead his more "paternal" feelings toward the girl, becasue he is aware that it is getting to the point where it will no longer be appropraite.

I felt this his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas was natural considering his situation. A young man that has never "been" with a woman before, every day alone in ths house with her, while she is cearly discontented with her husband, and the story remarks that she was attractive. I think almost anyone in that circumstance would begin to develop certain feelings/desires.

But what's the significance of it? In a story about a character who gets into a fist fight with his landlord, why are the questions I brought up suggested in the text. Do you think Lawrence just included those scenes and details to pad the story or do they tie in?

[Dark Muse]

I think the attraction between Severn and Mrs. Thomas ties into the fight. I felt in someways it was a very primal/male dominance type of fight. As I think in the story it makes a reference that Severn and Mr. Thomas were the best of friends when Mrs. Thomas was not there, but when she was in the room they were hostile to each other.

They were two stags fighting for the rights over the female

[Virgil]

Myself, I don't see any deep meaning in this story or any significance to the religions unless it has to do with the time period in which it was written. I don't rule out the fact that it could have been padding, though I highly doubt it. Lawrence was an extremely good writer, but he wasn't perfect. No one is.

Why do you think it's titled, "The Old Adam"? Who is Adam? Adam from Genisis? Which would give this a Biblical connection and therefore provide significance to the religions he mentions.

[Janine]

Wowy! I go away to sleep and come back to find all this. I guess the discussion has begun. Quark wanted to know when. I think it is well underway. Glad of it, because this is a very good start.


Quote by Virgil

I'm not so sure that this story is as simple as the surface implies. Perhaps it is, but there are some interesting elements to the story that if they connect thematically (and I haven't in my first reading completely comprehended it all) could make this a complex work. For instance, why does Lawrence include the detail of Kate being Jewish, and why is a point made that the Thomas's are protestant and Severn is a lapsed Cathloic? Why is the story titled "The Old Adam"? Why is the little girl, and especially the two scenes, one where he's racing after her and the other where he undresses her for bed, included? What is is going on with the sexual tension between Severn and Mrs. Thomas? Is there is sexual tension between him and Kate, and even perhpas between him and the little girl? If so why? And why do Severn and Mr. Thomas make up at the end so easily? I haven't figured all of this out, but I think those are some of the key questions that will allow us to untangle this story.

This is really good Virgil. I often think we should present questions like this at the beginning of a discussion. This really stimulates us to think about various elements. I also wondered about the title “Old Adam’, and Lawrence’s remark to Louie Burrows – ‘why mustn’t I write Old Adams? You are absolutely right – this is not a simplistic story – hey, are there any of L’s that truly are. I am sure we will find out there is more to it than perceived on our first reading. I hope to re-read the complete story again soon and note various things you have pointed out. Also, I will be posting text to review. I that is always very revealing, even looking at what lies between the lines.
I would add to your questions this: what would be the significance of the story taking place during the thunderstorm? Lightening is filled with tension and with light. Light is often such a huge theme with L. What would he be saying here with light emanating from lightening, electric. I just found the background setting so interesting and something different than what we have encountered so far in setting. We have had night, we have had day, but now we another totally different atmosphere presented early on in this story.


Quote by Antiquarian

I did not like the fact that he pointed out Kate was Jewish and that made her "look" different.………it was blonde as a child. My mother was a strawberry blonde, my father my dark.

Quote by Virgil in answer to Antiquarian

Yes I understand. Much early part of the 20th century had these racial notions. It even amounted to shaping o fheads of different races and the supposed implications. You can see references in a lot of early 20th century fiction, maybe even late 19th century fiction. Lawrence was not immune to the ignorant racial theories of his day. (As a side note, hitler's racial theories did not come in a vacuum; they were out there in the general public and not just in Germany but across Europe and even America.) I don't think that's the significance of Kate's Jewishness. He goes out of his way to mention the Protestant and the Cathlolic religons too.

I agree with Virgil here; it was the times and I don’t think you can take Lawrence’s remark personally nor in a negative light. When he said it I did not see it as anything at all negative. I agree that Lawrence also points out the other religions. If anything I think Lawrence would have sided with the Jews. He took his utopian community ideal/dream from a Jewish word and a song or poem I believe. Virgil knows more about that than I do.

Anti, just for the record, I was blond as a child too, so was my son and neither of us are blond now; in fact my son has very dark hair. It is funny, both and his father have been taken as Jewish decent and his father was Irish. How many think that Irish people all have red hair; we all know now that is nonsence.


Quote by Dark Muse

I think the attraction between Severn and Mrs. Thomas ties into the fight. I felt in someways it was a very primal/male dominance type of fight. As I think in the story it makes a reference that Severn and Mr. Thomas were the best of friends when Mrs. Thomas was not there, but when she was in the room they were hostile to each other.

They were two stags fighting for the rights over the female

Dark Muse, This reminded me of what Lawrence once pointed out about 3 people being a problem and causing friction – recall ‘Two Blue Birds’; also, in my Michael Black Early Fiction book he points out something about this scenario which has been seen in other Lawrence works. Remember, too the bonding that took place at the end of ‘The Blind Man’? When we get to this part in the text (really the end scenes) I will point out in more detail what Michael Black suggests about this bonding between two men in Lawrence’s works.

Your last statement, DM, made me laugh; I recall that painting in one of the stories; however, I think that was a stag and another animal.


Quote by Antiquarian

I think Severn's reaction to the little girl was a very normal one for a man of twenty-seven and one who's had no sexual experience. Perhaps it's included to show Severn is a very modest man and one who is very polite.

Quote by Virgil in answer to Antiquarian

OK, I thought it was a little more than natural, but when can look into it when we get to the text.

Virgil, I agree with Antiquarian, and yet I will also be anxious to see what the text says when we look at it closer. I didn’t feel anything was unnatural though. I felt, as in ‘Sun’ Lawrence was looking at the child in a very ‘natural’ light and took nothing offensive from that passage. Hey, Virg, you trying to make our L into a pedefile? Read “Lolita” instead!


Quote by Antiquarian

Severn is young enough, I think, to be sexually attracted to anyone who's good looking.

I agree with that whole-heartedly. Many young men that age will flirt and feel attraction. I had a son and he had guy friends and I know how that age group thinks. Sometimes they would really make me laugh.


Quote by Dark Muse

…. when Kate opens the door for him, there might have been some sexual tension between the two of them.

I really do not think anything "unnatural" was between him and the girl.

....do not think it was sexual, but rather showed instead his more "paternal" feelings ……getting to the point where it will no longer be appropriate.

I felt this his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas was natural considering his situation. A young man that has never "been" with a woman before, every day alone in ths house with her, while she is clearly discontented with her husband, and the story remarks that she was attractive. I think almost anyone in that circumstance would begin to develop certain feelings/desires.

I pretty much agree with all you said here, Dark Muse….now that is a first. I think there was also sexual tension or playfulness between Kate and Severn at the beginning.


Quote by Virgil

But what's the significance of it? In a story about a character who gets into a fist fight with his landlord, why are the questions I brought up suggested in the text. Do you think Lawrence just included those scenes and details to pad the story or do they tie in?

I do think there is more significance to all this, as you point out here, Virgil. As you said before this is not really a ‘simple’ story; sometimes we have thought that at the beginning of these discussion and most times we have been proven wrong by our closer look at the text, themes, and symbolism, etc. In this case I am sure more will emerge as we do so and even re-read the actual text. Lawrence really never did write a story without significance; maybe this was seen as a lesser work but Lawrence apparently saw it differently, in that he even remarked how much he liked this story; that in itself seems significant for me and the remark about writing about Old Adams. Exactly what does he mean by that?

I see there is a new post since I was working on this in my offline program. Looks like it is going to be hard to catch up. After I post this I will read yours, Antiquarian, and try to answer that, too.

Edit Note: I had to come in, and edit because I see there is about 5 new posts instead of just one and they are some problems. I will try to look into that and address those privately. I am not meaning to ignore those post or anyone.


Poor Quark, is being left in the dust again; although when I post the first part of the story text, I think then he can catch up with no problem; Pensive, too, if she decides to join-in.

You guys are too hyperactive!