Chekhov Short Story Thread

[Dark Muse]

[I must check that scene out; I don't recall it at all. I think I might also find that amusing.

It seems I was slightly wrong, it was in the same chapter when they were talking about the wedding, but it was not the actual wedding banquet, but another dinner where he showed up, I went back to check.

One day the monk appeared during dinner and say down in the dinning-room near the window. Kovrin was delighted, and very adroitly turned the conversation with Egor Semenych and Tania upon subjects that might interest the monk. The black guest listened and nodded his head affably; Egor Semenych and Tania also listened and smiled gaily; never suspecting that Kovrin was not talking to them, but to his vision.

I didn't think Tania and Igor were not sane (or insane). They were in touch with reality. I thought Tania was spoiled, though, and Igor was obsessed with his orchards, but not to the point of insanity. No one was really likable, though. Maybe Kovrin was the most likable.

I did not truly think any of them were "insane" so to speak, but I do think their are degrees of both sanity and insanity. They were all a bit abnormal and eccentric, but not really institutional

I liked the Monk LOL

[Janine]

A lot of people on this forum don't like Poe, Janine. I don't know why. I think his short stories and poems are superb.

Antiquarian, I did not know that about Poe and this site. I guess I did not run into those people, just Dark Muse, who always quotes him in her posts. Maybe I should read some Poe, it might cheer me up, so you would say Dark Muse, right?

I didn't think Tania and Igor were not sane (or insane). They were in touch with reality. I thought Tania was spoiled, though, and Igor was obsessed with his orchards, but not to the point of insanity. No one was really likable, though. Maybe Kovrin was the most likable.

Well, I didn't really mean literally they were 'insane', but they both had their issues I believe. For one, the father seemed to think no one could tend his garden but himself, and maybe his daughter; by projecting this duty onto his poor daughter and she letting him do so, he was really a very controlling man. At times he was truly fanatical about that garden. It was ashame for her having to feel so obligated, even when the old man were to die. I do know, in all seriousness, that Kovrin was the sickest of the lot. He definitely had to struggle with these mirages, or halucinations he would have; in my opinion he was indeed mentally ill. That can be a very real thing and I have known people who have dealt with these; luckily they have effective medications nowdays, for people with these disorders of the mind, really caused by chemical inbalances, etc. But too, I think we all suffer from time to time, from little shades of mental illness; call it depression or obsessing on whatever; luckily this is usually just temporary. Who of us can say we are 100% sane/rational all of the time?

(My oldest brother has convinced me to watch the Star Wars movies, but in return he as to watch twelve hours of something I like - maybe Vanity Fair and Pride and Prejudice. Or maybe even an opera, which he will actually like.)

Oh no, you might truly hate them. I find them fun; but of course, that is not my favorite genre, either; I have not seen them for years. Yet still I feel these beat out the newer space films and horror films. Somehow they seemed to have more charm or something - sort of like with Indiana Jones, you are meant to laugh through parts of it and as I said it is an adventure more or less. get ready for the 's!

So your brother will watch an opera and like it? Good! I love to watch opera on DVD's and ballet. Not too sure he will like the Jane Eyre films. You really want a trade-off.

It seems I was slightly wrong, it was in the same chapter when they were talking about the wedding, but it was not the actual wedding banquet, but another dinner where he showed up, I went back to check.

Good, glad that you looked. I thought once he showed up sitting in a chair in their bedroom; that was when she woke and discovered her husband conversing with an empty chair.

I did not truly think any of them were "insane" so to speak, but I do think their are degrees of both sanity and insanity. They were all a bit abnormal and eccentric, but not really institutional

Yes, I agree with that and expounded on it in my previous post.

I liked the Monk LOL

He may have been the most sane of the lot!

[Dark Muse]

Antiquarian, I did not know that about Poe and this site. I guess I did not run into those people, just Dark Muse, who always quotes him in her posts. Maybe I should read some Poe, it might cheer me up, so you would say Dark Muse, right?

LOL yes it is true I do rather love his stories. Though in fact not all of his stories really are terribly dreary. His detective stories for example, really are not that dark and daunting, though one of them starts off with a rather gruesome murder, the story itself is not about that, but rather about solving the case.

And I love A Decent into the Maelstrom, and I do not find anything horribly dark about that story. It is not exzcactly warm and fuzzy, but nothing too distrubing either I do not think

Well, I didn't really mean literally they were 'insane', but they both had their issues I believe. For one, the father seemed to think no one could tend his garden but himself, and maybe his daughter; by projecting this duty onto his poor daughter and she letting him do so, he was really a very controlling man. At times he was truly fanatical about that garden. It was ashame for her having to feel so obligated, even when the old man were to die. I do know, in all seriousness, that Kovrin was the sickest of the lot. He definitely had to struggle with these mirages, or halucinations he would have; in my opinion he was indeed mentally ill. That can be a very real thing and I have known people who have dealt with these; luckily they have effective medications nowdays, for people with these disorders of the mind, really caused by chemical inbalances, etc. But too, I think we all suffer from time to time, from little shades of mental illness; call it depression or obsessing on whatever; luckily this is usually just temporary. Who of us can say we are 100% sane/rational all of the time?

Though I found Kovrin's "illness" to be quite harmless, and rather he was quite happy. Honestly, I do not think there is anything so dreadful about someone having conversations with an illusionary monk. I do not think it would have ever turned violent or malicious and how the story turned out, he might have been better off if he had been left with his delusions.

[Janine]

Though I found Kovrin's "illness" to be quite harmless, and rather he was quite happy. Honestly, I do not think there is anything so dreadful about someone having conversations with an illusionary monk. I do not think it would have ever turned violent or malicious and how the story turned out, he might have been better off if he had been left with his delusions.

Dark Muse, if I restrict myself to the story only and the limited amount of knowledge we have about his delusions, visions, then I would tend to agree. His activity in this perimeter of the story and space of time of the story seemed harmless enough, benign. However, we don't know all that might have happened to him, staying on this path of delusionary thinking.

But, if I look at this story in a more realistic light, I tend to think his condition would have worsened with time and he would have been struggling even harder, to keep control of these visions invading his mind. Often, with people who suffer from actual halucinations, they don't do well coping in the so called 'normal' world of reality; also after a time they can't distiquish the world of reality, from the visionary world. It is like trying to live in two worlds at once. It might seem quite harmless, but who is to say these halucinations would always be so, or might they turn evil (within his own mind and imagination) and prompt him to become malicious or even violent at some point?

[Dark Muse]

But the story and what happens within the story is really all we have to judge on, as there are a million what ifs that could go in a 100 different directions if we try and dicuss what would have or could have happend outside of what is given within the story. Loosing his dislussions is ultamtely what ruined him. He was never the same again, and he was quite misserable. By "curing" himself he also surpressed an imporant part of his mind and who he was.

[Quark]

I know I said I would post the first chunk of the text in my next post, but it's two-hundred degrees in the room with my computer. It's only beginning to cool down. My computer is upstairs, and all the heat rises up to that room and gets trapped. I don't want to have to stay too long in this room to write a post, so I'll just respond to what's been said so far. Tomorrow morning--when I'm not sweating through my clothes--I can post the text of the story.

Chekhov wrote several stories about mental illness, but I think this is the earliest. I'm not sure, though. What do you say, Quark?

While so many of his stories include mentally unsound characters, I don't know how many had such explicit insanity. "On the Road" has a pretty delusional character, and the girl from "Sleepy" certainly loses it at the end. Were they insane, though? They probably were not insane to the extent Kovrin is. "The Black Monk" explores this much more than the others, I think.

I think Kovrin is complex and a "different" kind of Chekhov protagonist because he embraces his mental illness and uses it to validate his own feelings of superiority.

I'm not sure if Kovrin revels in his insanity or not. I think the Black Monk and the insanity represent something already existing in Kovrin. It's not something separate which he takes pride in. He may take pride in the feelings which the Black Monk embodies, but the Monk himself isn't really what he's proud of. The insanity and the Monk are more like the unfortunate consequences of the feelings he takes pride in, and not the feelings themselves--if that makes sense. That's how I interpret it right now, at least. I'm sure I'll change my mind when we get more into the story.

First was the fact that I did find the story to have some Poe like elements within it, the reason I said this was for a few reasons. For one thing, the very beginning in which Kovrin is depicted as being a very nervous individual and this aspect of his nervousness does play into the story and comes up more than once, as well Egor is also said to be quite nervous a times.

Kovrin's character could be right out of a Poe story. His strained nervousness is a particularly Poe-like characteristic. Chekhov, however, forms the story around him a little differently than Poe might. He makes the other characters have a similar--but more benign--form of Kovrin's mental illness. Chekhov tries to implicate more than just Kovrin with his story. Poe, on the other hand, often would have just one character with the problem and then use another character as a foil. The Cask of Amontillado, for example, has the insane, obsessed killer paired with his blithe, unthinking victim. Poe uses contrast where Chekhov doesn't. Chekhov almost normalizes Kovrin's mental instability with his cast of characters. This makes Kovrin's insanity surprising, whereas insanity in Poe's work is creepy. I would say that both Poe and Chekhov use nervous insanity, but they develop it in different ways.

The other thing I said, was that in some ways I found this story to be humorous, which I know sounds rather strange, as well I know the story was intended to be tragic, as well it was, but to be perfectly honest, for one thing I thought all three of them, Kovrin, Egor and Tania were all neurotic in one degree or another, and just the fact that the three of them were living together in the same house, all going off on their own little tangents, Egor constantly fretting about the farm, Tania, always bursting into tears and locking herself in her room while Kovrin was walking around talking to his hallucinogenic monk well I could not help but to find that amusing.

The tone of the story is light-hearted at times, and the characters are comically flawed. I laughed at parts, too--mostly at the obsessive gardener.

Dark Muse, if I restrict myself to the story only and the limited amount of knowledge we have about his delusions, visions, then I would tend to agree. His activity in this perimeter of the story and space of time of the story seemed harmless enough, benign. However, we don't know all that might have happened to him, staying on this path of delusionary thinking.

Whether Kovrin's delusion thinking was benign or even helpful is one of the big questions of the story. It definitely costs Kovrin much, but perhaps it's what made him interesting. Maybe he was a genius?

[Janine]

I know I said I would post the first chunk of the text in my next post, but it's two-hundred degrees in the room with my computer. It's only beginning to cool down. My computer is upstairs, and all the heat rises up to that room and gets trapped. I don't want to have to stay too long in this room to write a post, so I'll just respond to what's been said so far. Tomorrow morning--when I'm not sweating through my clothes--I can post the text of the story.

Although, I am sweltering too, Quark, I decided to post now. I guess I like to suffer. I do think you might be exaggerating a bit...200 and you would be keeled over by now!

While so many of his stories include mentally unsound characters, I don't know how many had such explicit insanity. "On the Road" has a pretty delusional character, and the girl from "Sleepy" certainly loses it at the end. Were they insane, though? They probably were not insane to the extent Kovrin is. "The Black Monk" explores this much more than the others, I think.

Well, I know you are addressing Antiquarian here but I wanted to say I did not read "On the Road" but I did read "Sleepy" and I think that girl was temporarily derranged and desperate, she had sleep deprivation which actually can cause this type of madness. That was the explainable type and yes, I do agree that Kovrin in the Black Monk is definitely 'certifiably' insane or I would rather refer to his condition as mentally ill. So we are dealing with a story that is much different than the other two.

I'm not sure if Kovrin revels in his insanity or not. I think the Black Monk and the insanity represent something already existing in Kovrin. It's not something separate which he takes pride in. He may take pride in the feelings which the Black Monk embodies, but the Monk himself isn't really what he's proud of. The insanity and the Monk are more like the unfortunate consequences of the feelings he takes pride in, and not the feelings themselves--if that makes sense. That's how I interpret it right now, at least. I'm sure I'll change my mind when we get more into the story.

Well, when that was said, I tended to agree with it. I think that mentally ill people can actually enjoy their illness or they can do so to the extend, that it makes them feel special and set appart or unique from others. In this way they do revel in their own illness. They actually, feel elated about it and can have the need to share it with others, and I think this only makes them feel more important. There is a medical term for this - 'delusions of grandeur' . I do think I dedected this in our protaganist more than once.
Many mentally ill people are indeed extraordinarily brillant and often very creative; think of how creative one can be while dreaming at night and how illogical those night dreams can sometimes be. Sometimes when I wake from such a creative dream I do feel this elation in the fact that my mind actually conjured up this amazing creative drream. Now, take those having delusions in the daytime and you can image how fascinating that must be for them and how elating.
I know first hand, from someone close to me who suffers mental illness. Hey, don't look at me; I am creative and have my quirps, definitely eccentric, but so far, I am basically sane/stable I believe, well at least on good days, when they let me out. But seriously, I do know first hand about these things and have dealt with the problems these states of mind do entail, being in close proximity with mentally ill people; I am talking seriously mentally ill individuals such as Kovrin is in this story.
No doubt he was a much more interesting person, when not medicated. Who wouldn't think seeing Monks flying through the night wouldn't be interesting, or perceiving the tree trunks by the brook as living tendrils, not interesting? The person close to me, had a friend who would periodically call her from California and he would stay on the phone, but a few minutes. He wanted to check on the latest landing of aliens in New Jersey; don't laugh - he was totally serious and convinced of it. He was quite benign and harmless, but he was definitely a space-cadett. I found him very interesting and entertaining. I really believe he did enjoy his lifestyle and his delusions. Actually he was quite happy and lived alone in an appartment. That is all I really know about him and God knows where he is now. He hasn't called for ages. I guess there has not been any alien invasions lately.

Kovrin's character could be right out of a Poe story. His strained nervousness is a particularly Poe-like characteristic. Chekhov, however, forms the story around him a little differently than Poe might. He makes the other characters have a similar--but more benign--form of Kovrin's mental illness. Chekhov tries to implicate more than just Kovrin with his story. Poe, on the other hand, often would have just one character with the problem and then use another character as a foil. The Cask of Amontillado, for example, has the insane, obsessed killer paired with his blithe, unthinking victim. Poe uses contrast where Chekhov doesn't. Chekhov almost normalizes Kovrin's mental instability with his cast of characters. This makes Kovrin's insanity surprising, whereas insanity in Poe's work is creepy. I would say that both Poe and Chekhov use nervous insanity, but they develop it in different ways

.

That is very interesting and quite inlightening. I see the difference clearly that you are pointing out even though I am not well read on Poe. I need to try some of his short stories. I know my father loved them so. I have a book of his collected works. I guess it is time to get it off my bookshelf and dust it off and read some. Interesting about the idea of the contrast in Poe's stories and the opposite in Chekhov's. I thought myself there was a blur there between the characters and their total stability of mind. Of course I never saw the father and daughter as truly mentally ill but I did not think them entirely normal either. They had their issues, each of them.

The tone of the story is light-hearted at times, and the characters are comically flawed. I laughed at parts, too--mostly at the obsessive gardener.

Whether Kovrin's delusion thinking was benign or even helpful is one of the big questions of the story. It definitely costs Kovrin much, but perhaps it's what made him interesting. Maybe he was a genius?

I think there is a fine line between mental illness and genius. I think may mentally ill persons are indeed near or truly genius'; but, I don't think they all can effectively channel that energy. There are solid medical reasons why this is true. For one thing the brain is overstimulated; mental illness is proven to be a chemical inbalance; there is much being done to improve on treatments, but when this story was written, so little was known about these things or how to truly control them, treat them effectively.

I would say this 'genius' idea particularly, could be applied to this story. As I was reading, I got the sense that we were to sympathise with Kovrin and be more against 'the cure', which, at least to his perception, put him into a catatonic state or one where he was now dull, no longer in touch with his creative self. I do know this can be a problem in real instances of mental illness, and one has to weigh the two. I think exploring this in this story, will be of great interest. To be honest with you, when I first read this story, I felt I was not going to be able to discuss it effectively, if it advocated he totally be left alone and not take any cure, be left to see these illusions as though it would be harmless to him; because I feel strongly that it would be harmful in the long run.

I think the story is open-ended enough now, to come up with our own conclusions. It is a good story, Quark, and it should make for a very interesting discussion.

[Dark Muse]

I would say this 'genius' idea particularly, could be applied to this story. As I was reading, I got the sense that we were to sympathise with Kovrin and be more against 'the cure', which, at least to his perception, put him into a catatonic state or one where he was now dull, no longer in touch with his creative self. I do know this can be a problem in real instances of mental illness, and one has to weigh the two. I think exploring this in this story, will be of great interest. To be honest with you, when I first read this story, I felt I was not going to be able to discuss it effectively, if it advocated he totally be left alone and not take any cure, be left to see these illusions as though it would be harmless to him; because I feel strongly that it would be harmful in the long run.

I think the story is open-ended enough now, to come up with our own conclusions. It is a good story, Quark, and it should make for a very interesting discussion.

Personally I think he should have been left alone and not subjected to the "cure" as I think it killed an imporant and sigificant part of who he was. That is one of the probelems with treatment, though there are people that want it or need it, I really do not think it would be for everyone. It rewires the way a person precivies the world, and if a person is a "genuis" such as Kovrin, or a creative person, well your preception of the world is such an imporant part of who you are.

That is way I persoanlly refuse to submit to any form of treatment, I do not trust anyone else tweeking with my head and chagning how I see things. I cannot afford that risk.

Though hallucanations/dillusions, is not one of the things of which I am afflicted with, I could relate to Kovrin in someways, and felt for him, what he went through when he was "cured"

[Janine]

Personally I think he should have been left alone and not subjected to the "cure" as I think it killed an imporant and sigificant part of who he was. That is one of the probelems with treatment, though there are people that want it or need it, I really do not think it would be for everyone. It rewires the way a person precivies the world, and if a person is a "genuis" such as Kovrin, or a creative person, well your preception of the world is such an imporant part of who you are.

That is way I persoanlly refuse to submit to any form of treatment, I do not trust anyone else tweeking with my head and chagning how I see things. I cannot afford that risk.

Though hallucanations/dillusions, is not one of the things of which I am afflicted with, I could relate to Kovrin in someways, and felt for him, what he went through when he was "cured"

Dark Muse, unless you have seen or lived with someone who saw these imaginary people or illusions you would not be able to fully understand this and how important it is, really vital for them to seek help. I have been subjected to this first hand, for a very long time and believe me I do know. Lives can truly be ruined when medications are ignored, or not administered and the person is left far out of reach of true reality. Someone very close to me suffers from these 'delusions of grandeur' and it is not easy to deal with daily, not for the person or the people who are involved with this person. I don't want to get too personal here, but really people who have delusions like Korvin, need to have some kind of treatment. If they lived in a vacumn that would be different but really they do live and have to function in the real world, not the world of total fantasy their minds invent for them to exist in.

I can further answer this in Antiquarian's post reply next.

[Janine]

First off I think I know what all of us suffer from: Insomnia!

"An Official Duty" is one of Chekhov's late stories dealing with mental illness, but it dealt with it in a totally different manner.

That is interesting. Is the story long? I will have to look into it after we finish discussing this one; I would not want to mix the two up.

Kovrin was suffering from megalomania, or as Janine said, "delusions of grandeur." The fact that Kovrin enjoys his mental illness is just more proof of how ill he is. Healthy people don't strive to remain ill to feed their ego, they try to get well.

That is so true and so insightful on your part, Antiquarian. I am glad you had this information. It is putting my own thoughts into words, that I had not heard of before. I don't think I was aware of the term megalomania. When I did refer to 'delusions of grandeur', often this state is characteristic of these people who experience this elated enhanced feeling, believing they can conquer the world so to speak. They can do anything, with no restrictions at all; they often do not use common sense and it leads them to a lot of poor decisions, which can ultimately ruin lives, not just their own, but others that love them or are close to them. They might believe one week, that they are capable of flight school, another week they could handle going to Harvard, another week sail around the world. There delusions change all the time and usually only worsen without treatment, and they have no rhyme or reason...they are usually very random thoughts. And these things only feed their inflated egos.

Kovrin says, "I was going mad. I had megalomania; but I was cheerful, confident, and even happy; I was interesting and original." People shouldn't need mental illness and delusions in order to achieve those things. I'm not saying I didn't like Kovrin, I did, but he was definitely ill and in need of treatment. At one point he says he's the "incarnation of the blessing of God." That is true megalomania.

This is true of individuals suffering this and Chekhov has captured this and expressed it so well. He is demonstrating just how this works in the mind of a person who is mad. They do know they are mad and they celebrate it. Because they do suffer this megalomania, they all do think they are genius and extraordinary individuals. It is the delusions that made this possible not the fact they truly are genius'.

My family actually knew this woman, who thought she was the reincarnation of the female (?) Jesus Christ. Now that is way out of the range of any logic. She stopped taking her medications; she spend money like crazy, without any limitations, she had wrecked her appartment, broke all her things, all because she could not function in the real world and her voices were telling her to do these things; she was tormented; it was tragic. She knew she was mentally ill, and I think she most certainly enjoyed the delusions she had, thus she stopped her medications and eventually, she had to give up her own place, which she loved and go to into a group home, it was tragic; she even killed her beloved cat accidently. People get totally out of control; those who are in need of these drugs to survive and live a relatively normal existence. It can be a very sad thing to see happen to someone.

I don't think Chekhov necessarily meant for us to feel empathy for Kovrin. One of Chekhov's hallmarks is his total objectivity.

I agree with that assertion, concerning Chekhov and what he would have intended us to feel in this story. I felt he was being objective.

I think the line between mental illness and physical illness as well as mental illness and genius has been deliberately blurred in this story, they are interwoven so skilfully and subtly. Kovrin may well have been a genius. Then again, he might not have been. Chekhov really doesn't give us any hint about that and I really didn't think it was necessary to the story.

That is true, Antiquarian, and actually, I don't see any signs, that he actually was a genius; we only can go by, what he has to reveal to us, about his intelligence. I guess now and then the wife mentions how smart he is, but I think when Quark posts some text, we can take a closer look at this point. I was not sure myself, if Kovrin was truly a genius or of ordinary intelligence, simply believing he was a genius, from what the monk vision told him to believe about himself.

I think the black monk can be interpreted in two ways, but I'll save that for later. I think it would be jumping ahead too much to talk about it now, though it's Quark's call, of course.

Yes, let's wait for Quark now. He will freak out, if he sees pages of posts, before he even posted the first segment of text. I can understand that. It is hard to catch up sometimes.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, Korvin reached a point where he couldn't function in the world. He had to give up teaching because of his delusions. Little by little, his life would have eroded until he would have been living in a total fantasy world, unable even to take care of himself.

I believe he actually gave up his teaching after he began his treatment. There is no evidence in the story that the delusions themselves are responsible for his downfall but rather it was the depression that came over him when he began his treatment that ultimately he gave up his life and ambitions.

[Dark Muse]

Though his physical illness does not really begin untill after he starts his "cure" for his mental illness. There is no indication that he was suffering from physical illness during the time od his delusions

[Janine]

hehehe...already we three insomniacs have filled up three pages of posts and poor Quark has not yet posted one shred of text. He is going to go bananas! He might even become delusional himself.

Well, I am finally heading for bed; I think I am falling asleep at this keyboard and I am roasting hot also. It got into the 80's here today, but I rather liked it more than that cooler weather we were having. Night everybody!

[Dark Muse]

No, he's not bleeding from the throat in the beginning of the story or before he begins treatment, but he was losing touch with reality and couldn't have lived among non-delusional people for long. His own wife couldn't stay with him when he would talk to the black monk.

But I was talking specially about his physcial illness, a person can have dillusions and still be perfectly healthy physcial, just because he was talking to the monk does not mean he was physcially sick, and his physcial illness did not occur untill after he began being treated for his mental illness.

I do not belive that his mental illness is what lead to his death I think it is what happend to him when he was being "cured" that caused his death.

[Dark Muse]

Seeing delusions is not going to cause someone to bleed from the throat either. And I did not say it was the cure itself that had caused his physical illness, but the effect the cure had upon him and how he deteriorated sense he began taking it. He had grown weaker sense beginning his cure, not because the milk was making him sick, but because he had grown depressed and unhappy, the "cure" was suppressing what had once been an important and significant part of who he was.