D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Antiquarian, that certainly would cause a stir, seeing dead lady floating into town!

Thanks Dark Muse, the end of that poem is really beautiful. I still do feel this has relevance to our story, in that Winifred might see Coutts more clearly, but he does not truly see Winifred, as she would want him to percieve her. Well, that is just a thought off the top of my head.

I have been working on this offline today:

Next Part of Text

All was silent. At last, opening his eyes again, he said: "I shall have to be going directly, Winifred; it is past eleven . . ." Then the appeal in his voice changed to laughter. "Though I know I shall be winding through all the Addios in 'Traviata' before you can set me travelling." He smiled gently at her, then closed his eyes once more, conscious of deep, but vague, suffering. She lay in her chair, her face averted, rosily, towards the fire. Without glancing at her he was aware of the white approach of her throat towards her breast. He seemed to perceive her with another, unknown sense that acted all over his body. She lay perfectly still and [b]warm in the fire-glow.[b] He was dimly aware that he suffered.
"Yes," she said at length; "if we were linked together we should only destroy each other."

Now Coutts tries to leave but knows she will detain him with her music. Note his voice changes to one of laughter as he acknowledges this fact; but right after his true feelings are of suffering deep down and he is conscious of this pain. Later in the passage it again speaks of suffering but now he is dimly aware of it after sitting quietly and observing physically Winifred. With this line “..he was aware of the approach of her throat towards her breast.” – guess our man, Lawrence was also a throat, breast man afterall . It seems as she is sitting there gazing into the fire, reflecting the fire and warmth he is ultimately charmed by her and actually now neither of them are speaking but quite – says “she is perfectly still and warm in the fire-glow.” This seems to be also a ‘foreshadowing’ device, for what will soon occur with the lamp/fire, deciding the fate of this situation for good. Her last line admitting they would “destroy each other”, if linked together begins to break this magical spell I think.

He started, hearing her admit, for the first time, this point of which he was so sure.

This further enforces that point; this time it is said admitted by Coutts, and stating ‘he was so sure’. I think this is the first time in the story Coutts is actually ‘sure’ of something.

"You should never marry anyone," he said.
"And you," she asked in irony, "must offer your head to harness and be bridled and driven?"
"There's the makings of quite a good, respectable trotter in me," he laughed. "Don't you see it's what I want to be?"
"I'm not sure," she laughed in return.
"I think so."

This small part reminds me of the passage in the very beginning of “Women in Love” when Ursula and Gudrun (the two sisters) are debating the merits of getting married. Of course this discourse is only brief but now she seems to think if he marries why shouldn’t she. Is this to strike back at him and to hurt him? He is acting very sure of himself that he indeed does want to be harnessed and bridled and driven – thus his concept of marriage. He does not fight her having made this comment, so rather but admits he would make a “good, repectable trotter” (husband, as he sees it, at this point in his young life). She expresses the fact she is “not so sure” of that and he says once again that he does “think so”. Again first time he has felt sure of it – why now?

They were silent for a time. The white lamp burned steadily as moonlight, the red fire like sunset; there was no stir or flicker.

Now that it is “silent”, I find these two images and perhaps contrast(?) of light interesting in this one single statement – “the white lamp…as moonlight”…then “red fire like sunset”…the sunset image takes us right back to Coutts alightening from the train and observing the sunset – the new moon going down and the evening star; both seemingly, so symbolic, at the time for Coutts. Now I see the two images as of Winifred’s once white moon-like face and the warm light of the fireplace upon it, transforming it. Motionless as well as silent, with “no stir or flicker”. This is sort of like ‘the calm before the storm’ to me.

"And what of you?" he asked.
She crooned a faint, tired laugh.
"If you are jetsam, as you say you are," she answered, "I am flotsam. I shall lie stranded."
"Nay," he pleaded. "When were you wrecked?"

Ok, another interesting passage with the use of words/images of “jetsam” and “flotsam”….flotsam left lying stranded and representing Winifred, if Coutt’s marries. So she is saying he will be like the wreckage of a ship floating on the surface and she will have been the cargo that was thrown overboard, to lighten the ship's load (in hopes of saving it) before it is ultimately destroyed by storm or whatever, altogether. So he replies with the last line. “Nay, when were you wrecked?” I think that line "I shall lie stranded" plays in nicely with that 'Lady of Shallot' image.

She laughed quickly, with a sound like a tinkle of tears.

I just love this line “a tinkle of tears”….good alliteration, poetic and also poignant…at this point I do feel a sympathy for Winifred. That “tingle of tears” makes me think of rain for some reason. Somehow it fits in with the idea of a ship wreck and a storm.

"Oh, dear Winifred!" he cried despairingly.
She lifted her arms towards him, hiding her face between them, looking up through the white closure with dark, uncanny eyes, like an invocation. His breast lifted towards her uptilted arms. He shuddered, shut his eyes, held himself rigid. He heard her drop her arms heavily.

Now she has drawn his attention by her breakdown with the tears and he feels for her. Here s the “invocation” with her arm moments and her look between them of her fact which had been hidden and now revealed “dark, uncanny eyes”….witch-like eyes? His breast lifts up her uptilted arms, so now they are quite close and yet he holds “himself rigid”. Now again the arms move – they drop heavily but it only says he hears them do so. I take that as a sign of despair on her part.

"I must go," he said in a dull voice.
The rapidly-chasing quivers that ran in tremors down the front of his body and limbs made him stretch himself, stretch hard.

Even thought he does try and break away, and leave her, this puts him into quite a state, which is so well described/expressed in this last line. It is taking all is will-power, to pull away from her now, and to resist her spell.

"Yes," she assented gravely; "you must go."
He turned to her. Again looking up darkly, from under her lowered brows, she lifted her hands like small white orchids towards him.

Now that final gesture that Michael Black points out in his book, as being a ritual, and part of the charm, the spell. But then it says:

Without knowing, he gripped her wrists with a grasp that circled his blood-red nails with white rims.

Without knowing; is this like subconsciously? Also, it seems he is actually hurting her with that grasp if the pressure is as described. The grasp seems to be full of anger, but I think more towards himself than actually towards Winifred.

[Janine]

Thanks for posting that, Antiquarian, I read the poem and I like it very much; quite interesting. If you go to Wikipedia, you will find that the original legend goes back further than the poem. I think it relates even better to our story. Here is the entry:

Elaine of Astolat is a figure in Arthurian legend who dies of her unrequited love for Lancelot. Also referred to as Elaine the White and Elaine the Fair, she is the daughter of Bernard of Astolat. Versions of her story appear in Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur and Alfred Tennyson's Idylls of the King. Elaine's story is also the inspiration for Tennyson's poem "The Lady of Shalott".

Legend:

Elaine arrives at Camelot. A version of the story appeared in the early 13th century Mort Artu, in which the Demoiselle d’Escalot dies of unrequited love for Lancelot and drifts down a river to Camelot in a boat. Another version is told in the 13th century Italian novella La Donna di Scallota, which served as the source material for Tennyson's The Lady of Shalott.

In Malory's 15th century Le Morte d'Arthur, Elaine's story begins when her father Bernard of Astolat organizes a jousting tournament, attended by King Arthur and his knights. While Lancelot was not originally planning to attend, he is convinced otherwise and visits Bernard and his two sons before the tournament.

While Lancelot is in her family's household, Elaine becomes enamoured of him and begs him to wear her token at the coming tournament. Explaining that Guinevere would be at the tournament, he consents to wear the token but says that he will have to fight in disguise so as not to be recognised. He then asks Bernard if he can leave his recognizable shield with him and borrow another. Bernard agrees and lends him the plain-white shield of Torre, Elaine's brother.

Lancelot goes on to win the jousting tournament, still in disguise, fighting against King Arthur's party and beating forty of them in the tournament. He does, however, receive an injury to his side from Bors's lance, and is carried off the field by Lavaine to the hermit Sir Baudwin's (an ex-Round Table knight) cave. Elaine then urges her father to let her bring the wounded Lancelot to her chambers, where she nurses him. When Lancelot is well, he makes ready to leave, and offers to pay Elaine for her services; insulted, Elaine brings him his shield, which she had been guarding, and a wary Lancelot leaves the castle, never to return but now aware of her feelings for him.

Wikisource has original text related to this article:
Lancelot and ElaineTen days later, Elaine dies of heartbreak. Per her instructions, her body is placed in a small boat, clutching a lily in one hand, and her final letter in the other. She then floats down the Thames to Camelot, where she is discovered by King Arthur's court. Lancelot is summoned and hears the contents of the letter, after which he explains what had happened. Lancelot proceeds to pay for a rich funeral and Elaine's mass-penny, at her request.

[Janine]

I don't see how it relates to the story, but I'm not concentrating tonight. I don't doubt that it does. It's just my concentration. It's me, not the story. LOL

hahaha...I am not sure myself now - just the sense that is it a case of 'unrequitted love' and also the fact he (Lancelot) will be doing something to honor the other woman (Elaine) in disquise and therefore, behind the back or knowledge of the other woman (Guinevere). So therefore, I was seeing Coutts as a sort of Lancelot playing this disguise game with Elaine (Winifred), even involving her family, hidden from the knowlege of his true love, Guinevere (Connie). The end, when Lancelot is wounded while in disquise and carrying the token of Elaine and not Guinevere, he is carried to Elaine's house to be nursed. It is kind of ironic, that at the end Coutts, is indeed wounded at Winifred's house while 'playing with fire'; as Lancelot was also 'playing with fire' in deceiving Guinevere.

Did you get all that down, Antiquarian? Well, it is just a thought and seemed to fit the scenerio, but then again I do have an overactive imagination, or did Lawrence???

[Janine]

LOL I think I see what you're getting at now. Thanks. Lawrence did fill his stories with symbolism, didn't he?

Today is just not my day to think too deeply.

Well, today I am awful - too intense, overly sensitive and so tired out now. I think I need a nap....sorry if your day is blah, too. Maybe a nap would help you or watch a good movie. I may do either. Tomorrow will be a better day, right? We should give up on here, for the night. I posted that new part of the story, and will post more after we all discuss that section first. There is only the conclusion to post after that; then we can get on with the 'fascinating' new Lawrence story. At least, I hope you all like it and find it fascinating.

[Janine]

I'm sure we'll all like it, Janine. Tomorrow will be a better day, I'm sure.

Yeah, that is true; thanks, Antiquarian, I know it will better; I am sure it was just me, over-reacting to things. I was being overly sensitive about everything. Lots of 'ups and downs' lately, emotionally, that's all. I should go to bed. I think I need rest and sleep. I have been over-extending myself, too.

[Virgil]

You guys are on a wild goose chase. Lady of Shalott does not relate to this story. I think we're trying to make to much out of these allusions. I think Lawrence just wants the association, not an actual allegorical drama.

[Dark Muse]

Yes at times it is possible for one to start over-anylyizing things and looking for meaning where perhaps there really is not intended to be one

[Janine]

You guys are on a wild goose chase. Lady of Shalott does not relate to this story. I think we're trying to make to much out of these allusions. I think Lawrence just wants the association, not an actual allegorical drama.

Well, Virgil, see what happens when you depart the thread for any length of time - we just get restless and conjure up our own new spells or symbolism. Well, what were you doing with all that arm and corset talk, eh? That surely went off on it's own tangent. It was slow and we just got carried away a little. I did post the new portion of the text a page back, so if you (or anyone else) could address that post of mine and that particular text, we could move onto the big dramatic ending.

[Virgil]

Well, Virgil, see what happens when you depart the thread for any length of time - we just get restless and conjure up our own new spells or symbolism. Well, what were you doing with all that arm and corset talk, eh? That surely went off on it's own tangent. It was slow and we just got carried away a little. I did post the new portion of the text a page back, so if you (or anyone else) could address that post of mine and that particular text, we could move onto the big dramatic ending.

OK, I will. We went to see a movie tis evening and wanted to post something in your movie thread. I'll keep you guessing as to what we saw.

[Janine]

OK, I will. We went to see a movie tis evening and wanted to post something in your movie thread. I'll keep you guessing as to what we saw.

Virgil, you sure talk funny - "tis evening" is that biblical language - the "tis" or old English?

You are so mysterious, V!

[Virgil]

Now Coutts tries to leave but knows she will detain him with her music. Note his voice changes to one of laughter as he acknowledges this fact; but right after his true feelings are of suffering deep down and he is conscious of this pain. Later in the passage it again speaks of suffering but now he is dimly aware of it after sitting quietly and observing physically Winifred. With this line “..he was aware of the approach of her throat towards her breast.” – guess our man, Lawrence was also a throat, breast man afterall . It seems as she is sitting there gazing into the fire, reflecting the fire and warmth he is ultimately charmed by her and actually now neither of them are speaking but quite – says “she is perfectly still and warm in the fire-glow.” This seems to be also a ‘foreshadowing’ device, for what will soon occur with the lamp/fire, deciding the fate of this situation for good. Her last line admitting they would “destroy each other”, if linked together begins to break this magical spell I think.

Good analysis janine. One thing that sticks out at me in that passage is "He seemed to perceive her with another, unknown sense that acted all over his body." That unknown sense I take it to be some sort of subconscious phenomena. Or one can see it as witchcraft. I think actually it's the intersection of psychology and witchcraft.

This small part reminds me of the passage in the very beginning of “Women in Love” when Ursula and Gudrun (the two sisters) are debating the merits of getting married. Of course this discourse is only brief but now she seems to think if he marries why shouldn’t she.

Yes! Great connection.

Is this to strike back at him and to hurt him? He is acting very sure of himself that he indeed does want to be harnessed and bridled and driven – thus his concept of marriage. He does not fight her having made this comment, so rather but admits he would make a “good, repectable trotter” (husband, as he sees it, at this point in his young life). She expresses the fact she is “not so sure” of that and he says once again that he does “think so”. Again first time he has felt sure of it – why now?

Well, actually he insults her first with telling her she should never marry anyone. But actually given the laughing nature of the banter, I think their just being facetious with each other.

Now that it is “silent”, I find these two images and perhaps contrast(?) of light interesting in this one single statement – “the white lamp…as moonlight”…then “red fire like sunset”…the sunset image takes us right back to Coutts alightening from the train and observing the sunset – the new moon going down and the evening star; both seemingly, so symbolic, at the time for Coutts. Now I see the two images as of Winifred’s once white moon-like face and the warm light of the fireplace upon it, transforming it.

Excellent! I had not picked up on it. Yes, the moon as a source of female power.

Quote:
She laughed quickly, with a sound like a tinkle of tears.

I just love this line “a tinkle of tears”….good alliteration, poetic and also poignant…at this point I do feel a sympathy for Winifred. That “tingle of tears” makes me think of rain for some reason. Somehow it fits in with the idea of a ship wreck and a storm.

I found that a odd simile. In a way it strikes me as awkward. I don't know what a tinkle of tears sounds like. Certainly poetic, but this is not a poem. Can anyone tell me the signiicance of it. I'm baffled.

Quote:
"Oh, dear Winifred!" he cried despairingly.
She lifted her arms towards him, hiding her face between them, looking up through the white closure with dark, uncanny eyes, like an invocation. His breast lifted towards her uptilted arms. He shuddered, shut his eyes, held himself rigid. He heard her drop her arms heavily.

The final spell. I loved this.

Now she has drawn his attention by her breakdown with the tears and he feels for her. Here s the “invocation” with her arm moments and her look between them of her fact which had been hidden and now revealed “dark, uncanny eyes”….witch-like eyes? His breast lifts up her uptilted arms, so now they are quite close and yet he holds “himself rigid”. Now again the arms move – they drop heavily but it only says he hears them do so. I take that as a sign of despair on her part.

Rigid? What do you think he's alluding to.

Even thought he does try and break away, and leave her, this puts him into quite a state, which is so well described/expressed in this last line. It is taking all is will-power, to pull away from her now, and to resist her spell.

Yes, he's rigid. Soryy, I couldn't help that.


Now that final gesture that Michael Black points out in his book, as being a ritual, and part of the charm, the spell. But then it says:

Quote:
Without knowing, he gripped her wrists with a grasp that circled his blood-red nails with white rims.

Without knowing; is this like subconsciously? Also, it seems he is actually hurting her with that grasp if the pressure is as described. The grasp seems to be full of anger, but I think more towards himself than actually towards Winifred.

Yes that was startling. I just think it shows how out of control he's become.

[Janine]

Good analysis janine. One thing that sticks out at me in that passage is "He seemed to perceive her with another, unknown sense that acted all over his body." That unknown sense I take it to be some sort of subconscious phenomena. Or one can see it as witchcraft. I think actually it's the intersection of psychology and witchcraft.

Oh, thanks, Virgil, your remark/compliment makes all my efforts worthwhile.

Yes! Great connection.

Thanks again, I thought it was kind of brilliant myself...hahaha just kidding. It just popped into my head really.

Well, actually he insults her first with telling her she should never marry anyone. But actually given the laughing nature of the banter, I think their just being facetious with each other.

Good point; he does do that. I think they are both bantering and you can't take what they say as total truisms. They simply want to hurt each other as well and so this constant banter back and forth is really like a dual of words, but not a so harsh or deadly, just throwing offhand comments to each other like light insults....'facetious' is a good word for it.

Excellent! I had not picked up on it. Yes, the moon as a source of female power.

Oh, thanks again. Definitely, I found that a fascinating imagery all in one sentence - Lawrence's genius writing again.

I found that a odd simile. In a way it strikes me as awkward. I don't know what a tinkle of tears sounds like. Certainly poetic, but this is not a poem. Can anyone tell me the signiicance of it. I'm baffled.

I was thinking that tinkle would sound musical and even like the tinkle of the keys of a piano - the higher notes. I like that simile very much. It brings to mind music to me, and that would fit here. Winifred is passionate and sensitive with her music, and now there is this breakdown within her, and this 'tinkle of tears.' Also, it is quiet and not so invasive, but subtle. It is like falling rain, gentle and yet poingant. It is like a whisper can be more effective than a shout. This image of the tears falling is so delicate and yet so powerful.

The final spell. I loved this.

I did too. I typed what you quote wrong several places - I mean her 'face' not 'fact' and earlier I made another odd typo, too late now to correct it - oh I know it was 'quiet' but I typed in 'quite'....my dyslexia again....

Rigid? What do you think he's alluding to.

Yeah rigid - maybe like another one of your fond phallic symbols?
I could not resist that!

Yes, he's rigid. Soryy, I couldn't help that.

Like 'unbending, stubborn, holding ones ground' - the 'test of the two wills' - that sort of meaning of the word 'rigid'. Still many double meanings here; that is true also.

Yes that was startling. I just think it shows how out of control he's become.

It was wasn't it? But the timing was perfect and I think it was meant to startle the reader at that point. Leads up to that ending so well.

[Virgil]

I was thinking that tinkle would sound musical and even like the tinkle of the keys of a piano - the higher notes. I like that simile very much. It brings to mind music to me, and that would fit here. Winifred is passionate and sensitive with her music, and now there is this breakdown within her, and this 'tinkle of tears.' Also, it is quiet and not so invasive, but subtle. It is like falling rain, gentle and yet poingant. It is like a whisper can be more effective than a shout. This image of the tears falling is so delicate and yet so powerful.

Good point, it does connect to the music motif that's running throughout. But I think it's still forced for me. You found it effective. I wonder what the others think?

Yeah rigid - maybe like another one of your fond phallic symbols?
I could not resist that!

Like 'unbending, stubborn, holding ones ground' - the 'test of the two wills' - that sort of meaning of the word 'rigid'. Still many double meanings here; that is true also.

Actually I do mean in the phallic sense.

The lamp being tied to the moon as a source of female power is strange to me because ultimately, it's the lamp that breaks the spell and causes Coutts to run away. But maybe he's under her spell until that lamp is broken. Maybe it's only the breaking of the lamp, and the release of the spell, that causes him to flee. Of course, I don't ever see Winifred as casting a real spell. She's not really a witch. She really has no powers. Her power is Coutts' weakness where she's concerned.

All these images are interweaved. i don't know if we should take them allegorically, as you'r trying to do there, or just appreciate how they all contribute. My preference when reading modern fiction is not to try to find an allegorical thread, but to watch the motifs play together. That doesn't mean Lawrence wasn't trying to organize this allegorically, and you may be correct in trying to explicate it in that fashion.

It was wasn't it? But the timing was perfect and I think it was meant to startle the reader at that point. Leads up to that ending so well.

The blood-red nails reminded me of a vampire. LOL

I put those comments together since they are both addressing the same image. Up to this point the story has been delicate, low key, methodical, a sort of comedy of manners. But then we're hit with this, and I think, while over statling, Lawrence is correct to change the tone. I think he wants to end the story with a bang, a quick powerful ending, and he needs to elevate the tone, almost like a composer jumping into a new key. The passion that has pushed Coutts to a breaking point needs to be reflected with a changed tone and the spell that culmnates and then quickly extinguishes contrats with the key the story has been in the whole while. The story has taken on a dangerous element, something that Lawrence feels should not be played with. And we see that too with the drama of the burning lamp and fire. I think this was a finely crafted story.

[Virgil]

Personally, I didn't like the phrase "tinkle of tears." Tears don't "tinkle." They don't make any noise as they fall. It sounded silly to me in an otherwise beautiful, and beautifully written, story.

I would think that point would be the point at which he would lose his rigidity. LOL Come to his senses, so to speak. But maybe not until the fire. I can't find the text now.

I don't think I'm taking the story as an allegory, really, I just think it's necessary to remember Winifred is not a witch. Coutts is just bewitched by her. There's been so much talk of witchcraft and witch symbols, too much, I think, because Winifred is not a witch. She's just a woman Coutts finds very attractive in many ways.

You're right, she's not a literal witch. Shall we break the news to Dark Muse? Only kidding D-M. I'm glad you agree with me on the "tinkle of tears" line.

[Dark Muse]

The lamp being tied to the moon as a source of female power is strange to me because ultimately, it's the lamp that breaks the spell and causes Coutts to run away. But maybe he's under her spell until that lamp is broken. Maybe it's only the breaking of the lamp, and the release of the spell, that causes him to flee. Of course, I don't ever see Winifred as casting a real spell. She's not really a witch. She really has no powers. Her power is Coutts' weakness where she's concerned.

Symbolically speaking, fire is seen as a sort of purification. The breaking of the lamp causes the fire, and it is the fire that breaks the "spell" the reason witches and heretics use to be burned, because it was thought the fire was the only thing that could "save their souls" so in this regard fire is almost an exorcising force.

No she is not a literal witch, but you cannot ignore the fact, that Lawrence made a point of casing her in the role of a "witch" and I think the story is heavily symbolic, and it is a bit hard to talk about the story without dicussing the importance of the witchcraft allusions made, as they were put there for a reason.