The Aeneid Discussion Group

[Quark]

I just finished the fourth book and it's my favorite so far.

I'm glad you liked it. Book IV is pretty engaging. It draws you into Dido's situation so well, and makes you feel her loss. I'm often confused why Vergil does this, though. It's such a departure from the story of Aeneas founding Rome. Several of the critics I've read have suggested that Book IV should be interpreted as a morality tale about the importance of pietas, or devotion. The reader is supposed to recoil from Dido because she represents the danger of giving in to passion. Her story is relevant to Aeneas because it's part of his growth as a character. By witnessing her downfall, he realizes the moral of the story and learns from it. Later, through Aeneas, this lesson is transfered to the Roman character. One could then argue that her story is necessary because it shows shows the development of Rome morally.

This conclusion only somewhat satisfies me. I think there is a warning in Dido's story; but, I don't believe we're supposed to recoil from Dido--at least, I don't. Dido isn't just a sinful wretch who ignores her duty. Vergil makes her quite attractive, and not just in a tempting, false sort of way. The perspective also draws us to her character. Book IV is told almost entirely from her point of view, and our sympathy naturally goes toward her. If the story were solely concerned with a moral objective which included the rejection of her character, I would think that Vergil wouldn't make her so easy to empathize with. I think the objective might be more complicated than that. Specifically, I think that Vergil is showing the pain that results from pietas. This makes Aeneas even more heroic because it means that he's overcoming something that the reader probably cannot.

I wanted to quote a passage about Aeneas silencing his heart and heeding his mind, which is filled with the warning of the Gods, but I can't seem to locate it.

There are two places in the story where Mercury descends to scold Aeneas, and after each Aeneas says something like what you're talking about. Those sections are toward the end, I think.

I plan on reading it during the summer. I am going to conquer the epic this year.

Good luck. Where do you suppose you'll start?

[NickAdams]

I'm glad you liked it. Book IV is pretty engaging. It draws you into Dido's situation so well, and makes you feel her loss. I'm often confused why Vergil does this, though. It's such a departure from the story of Aeneas founding Rome. Several of the critics I've read have suggested that Book IV should be interpreted as a morality tale about the importance of pietas, or devotion. The reader is supposed to recoil from Dido because she represents the danger of giving in to passion. Her story is relevant to Aeneas because it's part of his growth as a character. By witnessing her downfall, he realizes the moral of the story and learns from it. Later, through Aeneas, this lesson is transfered to the Roman character. One could then argue that her story is necessary because it shows shows the development of Rome morally.

This conclusion only somewhat satisfies me. I think there is a warning in Dido's story; but, I don't believe we're supposed to recoil from Dido--at least, I don't. Dido isn't just a sinful wretch who ignores her duty. Vergil makes her quite attractive, and not just in a tempting, false sort of way. The perspective also draws us to her character. Book IV is told almost entirely from her point of view, and our sympathy naturally goes toward her. If the story were solely concerned with a moral objective which included the rejection of her character, I would think that Vergil wouldn't make her so easy to empathize with. I think the objective might be more complicated than that. Specifically, I think that Vergil is showing the pain that results from pietas. This makes Aeneas even more heroic because it means that he's overcoming something that the reader probably cannot.



There are two places in the story where Mercury descends to scold Aeneas, and after each Aeneas says something like what you're talking about. Those sections are toward the end, I think.



Good luck. Where do you suppose you'll start?

That all makes sense.

I'll start with Gilgamesh.

I'm enjoying the fifth book. I found something odd though. Virgil seems to break from the narrative and addresses the Roman reader directly.

[Quark]

I'm enjoying the fifth book. I found something odd though. Virgil seems to break from the narrative and addresses the Roman reader directly.

That won't be the last time he does that. Where does address the reader in the fifth Book? I forget the details of that one frequently.

[NickAdams]

Last, Cloanthus
rides sea-green "Scylla": it is he from whom
you take your name, Roman Cluentius.

Do you know the motive behind this? Is it to promote national pride?

[NickAdams]

I've finished the fifth book. I find Entellus to be the most interesting character, although his role is very small.

I find myself laughing at the story. Not by anything Virgil intended, but because of my modernistic view. I find Aeneas to be pious the way Candide is optimistic. Am I the only one?

[Virgil]

I haven't read Book Five yet. I need a good horse whipping.

I'm not sure I agree with you on Aneid and Candide. Candide's opitimism was an ironic stance by the author. Aeneas' piety is i think what Virgil wants us to accept. I don't see Virgil being ironic.

[NickAdams]

I don't see Virgil being ironic.

Not by anything Virgil intended, but because of my modernistic view.

It's always me and never the author. The Greek Gods moved from religion to mythology, so his devotion becomes humorous in a modern context. I've been thinking about a modern parody.


I love this line from the sixth book:

"Some seek the seeds
of fire hidden in the veins of flint,"

[Quark]

I suppose I should introduce the fifth Book, if not the sixth. I was waiting for some others to join since it looked like there was interest, but everyone's floated away. Give me a minute, and I'll post something introductory for Book V.

[NickAdams]

I suppose I should introduce the fifth Book, if not the sixth. I was waiting for some others to join since it looked like there was interest, but everyone's floated away. Give me a minute, and I'll post something introductory for Book V.

No need for more kindle, the few here have enough interest to keep the fire burning.

I admit: I have not smelled Virgil's flowers; however, The Aeneid is a book I plan on reading again, so I will take in the fragrance on the second read.

It's getting on now; Aeneas is at the river Styx.

[Quark]

Since Nick has caught up to us now and Virgil is claiming he needs a kick to get going, I think we can move on to the next book. Here's:

Book V

Aeneas' Four Ships from the Vergilius Vaticanus, a 5th century manuscript

Book V is the relaxing interlude between two intense and depressing sections. Dido has murdered herself, and Trojans are headed for Italy. On the way they stop in Sicily where they meet friendly Acestes who is also of Dardanian origin. He welcomes them, and the Sicilians and the Romans perform the funeral games for Anchises there on the island. Cloanthus wins the ship race. Euryalus finishes first in the foot race (with some help), and Entellus out-boxes Metus. Acestes wins the archery contest through divine intervention. Meanwhile, Juno--still furious--sends her helper Iris to incite a riot amongst the Trojan women. Their anger at the continuing voyage boils over and they set fire to the ships. The gods extinguish the flame, and Venus bargains with Neptune to get Aeneas safe passage to Italy. Aeneas allows those who do not want to go on to stay in Sicily. He takes the brave remainder with him to Cumae where he must go into the underworld and speak with his father. That's where Book V leaves us.

The unyielding Aeneas of the last Book is replaced with a very generous, conciliatory in Book V. He gives out awards to almost all the participants, and he even allows the unhappy women to stay in Sicily after they torched his boats. There's certainly been a change from the Aeneas who was describes as a stubborn oak tree weathering intense winds. This Aeneas is compassionate and emotional. He almost breaks down toward the end. Perhaps this change is necessary to rally support for Aeneas after he callously departed from Troy. Or, maybe this is just the natural Aeneas when he isn't being hassled by gods and goddesses. Either way, it's an interesting departure.

Book V also has much foreshadowing. Sinus helps Euryalus; Juno sends her minion to stir up trouble; there are several events prefigured in the details of Book V.

Another point of interest in Book V is the relationships between the gods and the action on the field. There is rather a lot of divine interference in this section.

Anyway, there's the introduction for Book V. Feel free to start posting comments.

Venus and Neptune--also from the Vergilius Vaticanus

Do you know the motive behind this? Is it to promote national pride?

Yes, the links between Vergil's time and the story are meant to build Roman pride. In some ways the story is almost a glorified Roman history. The characters are often meant to be idealized portraits of Romans living contemporaneously with Vergil.

I've finished the fifth book. I find Entellus to be the most interesting character, although his role is very small.

I find myself laughing at the story. Not by anything Virgil intended, but because of my modernistic view. I find Aeneas to be pious the way Candide is optimistic. Am I the only one?

I like Entellus mostly because he beats the pompous Metus.

Virgil's probably right about the humor of the story. I don't think there's much of a parody going on in Book V.

[mortalterror]

Somebody mentioned that Aeneas acts differently here. I can't remember right now, but this may mark the spot where Aeneas makes the transition from Trojan/Greek to proto-Roman. He becomes more stoic, or epicurean (again I forget which Virgil was). He stops showing so much emotion. He makes a switch from his berserker style of fighting to the cool, collected, even tempered professional man of war. He stops running from his destiny and becomes the strong masculine leader his people need him to be.

I've kind of lost place where we are. Is this the funeral games section in honor of Aeneas' father? That would signal his shift to the pater familias, the head of the family, where he is no longer subject to his father and becomes his own man. If this is the spot I remember it being, then there's a lot of character development coming. It also echoes the funeral games for Patroclus in the Iliad. Sorry to be so unspecific. I don't have my book by me.

I remember being really into the boxing section, just because I like boxing. But supposedly the part where one of the men has his blood so up at the end of a bout that he kills a steer by punching it was supposed to re-enforce that Greek berserker bloodlust mentality which we'll see Virgil moving away from later. Then there was that long section about the boat race, which is pictured in terms of a chariot race. A few years before Virgil wrote this poem, Augustus had initiated a new series of public games which he claimed had their root in ancient times and he was re-instating. That was his thing: pietas. He filled all the vacant priesthoods, restored temples and old customs. What Virgil is doing here is backing his patron up and saying "See, this is where the games come from."

[NickAdams]

Virgil's probably right about the humor of the story. I don't think there's much of a parody going on in Book V.

I agree. I know Virgil didn't intend it, but I find humor in most things (I thought Catcher in the Rye was hilarious), but I just thought it would be great to parody.

Somebody mentioned that Aeneas acts differently here. I can't remember right now, but this may mark the spot where Aeneas makes the transition from Trojan/Greek to proto-Roman. He becomes more stoic, or epicurean (again I forget which Virgil was). He stops showing so much emotion. He makes a switch from his berserker style of fighting to the cool, collected, even tempered professional man of war. He stops running from his destiny and becomes the strong masculine leader his people need him to be.

That's interesting, because I see the shift in Book Six. I stopped snickering and my Hemingway hairs stood up.

[Quark]

I've kind of lost place where we are. Is this the funeral games section in honor of Aeneas' father?

Yes, that's the section we're in right now. Book V is everything in between Dido's death and Aeneas's descend into the underworld.

this may mark the spot where Aeneas makes the transition from Trojan/Greek to proto-Roman. He becomes more stoic, or epicurean (again I forget which Virgil was). He stops showing so much emotion. He makes a switch from his berserker style of fighting to the cool, collected, even tempered professional man of war. He stops running from his destiny and becomes the strong masculine leader his people need him to be.

You're right that there is change in Aeneas in Book V, but I don't know if he becomes more stoic--or whether this change is part of progression. Like I mentioned in my last post, Aeneas almost breaks down toward the end when the ships are burned. He seemed much more stoic in Book IV when he dispassionately told off Dido. Also, further along in the story there are several instances where Aeneas becomes enraged and engages in that "berserker" style of fighting. The very last act he does in the Aeneid might fall in that category. I think you're right to notice the change in Aeneas, but I don't know if I agree that he progressing toward an ideal here. If there is a progression, it might be in the mind of the reader as he or she sees Aeneas in various situations and attitudes.

I remember being really into the boxing section, just because I like boxing. But supposedly the part where one of the men has his blood so up at the end of a bout that he kills a steer by punching it was supposed to re-enforce that Greek berserker bloodlust mentality which we'll see Virgil moving away from later. Then there was that long section about the boat race, which is pictured in terms of a chariot race. A few years before Virgil wrote this poem, Augustus had initiated a new series of public games which he claimed had their root in ancient times and he was re-instating. That was his thing: pietas. He filled all the vacant priesthoods, restored temples and old customs. What Virgil is doing here is backing his patron up and saying "See, this is where the games come from."

I didn't know that, mortal. Since there is so much in the Aeneid which is suggestive--and supporting--of Virgil's Rome, the funeral games probably also have their correlatives in Augustan Rome. That's a good point, mortal.

I agree. I know Virgil didn't intend it, but I find humor in most things (I thought Catcher in the Rye was hilarious), but I just thought it would be great to parody.

I'm sure a lot of the Aeneid is unintentionally funny. I find some of the battles at the end to be a little comical. They're just so over-the-top.

That's interesting, because I see the shift in Book Six. I stopped snickering and my Hemingway hairs stood up.

"Hemingway" hairs? Where do those grow?

[Virgil]

Well I finally caught up. Funny I don't notce a shift n Aeneas in Book V. He doesn't even have that large a role here.

I guess what everyone thinks of in Book V is the funeral games, and they are magnificent. I'm not sure if Nick is refering to Hemingway because of these games, but I do think Hemingway would have been proud of it. He may have even got the idea for his sporting event decriptions from here.

And while the games are inspiring and festive and heroic I can't help feel that the key to Book V is the notion of death. First of all the games are a commemoration for a funeral, the death of Anchises. And here we see the respect for the dead and especially the death of one’s father. I found this passage initiating the games particularly moving:

With that he [Aeneas] binds his own brows with his mother’s myrtle.
So does Helymus, so does Acestes ripe in years, the boy
Ascanius too, and the other young men take his lead.
Leaving the council now with thousands in his wake,
amid his immense cortege, Aeneas gains the tomb
and here he pours libations, each in proper order.
Two bowls of unmixed wine he tips on the ground
and two of fresh milk, two more of hallowed blood,
then scatters crimson flowers with this prayer:
“Hail, my blessed father, hail again! I salute
your ashes, your spirit and your shade—my father
I rescued once, but all for nothing. Not with you
would it be my fate to search for Italy’s shores
and destined fields and, whatever it may be,
the Italian river Tiber.”
(ll 88-102)

Virgil describes the slaughtering of sheep and swine and other animals, and we have the pseudo appearance of Anchises as a serpent, and later he personally comes as a shade. And then there is the death of Polinurus. This is carefully crafted on Virgil’s part. He starts the book with Polinurus. We see him piloting a ship, and as the weather turns rough questions father Neptune: “Why such cloudbanks wrapped around the sky?/Father Neptune, what are you whipping up for us now?” And then toward the end we see Neptune soothing Venus when she complains about the hardships of her son Aeneas. Neptune promises her smooth and uneventful seas for her son. Here are his words:

“And now as then, my concern for him stands firm.
So cast your fears to the winds. Just as you wish,
he will arrive at Avernus’ haven safe and sound.
Only one will be lost, one you seek at sea.
One life for the lives of many men.”
(ll 904-8)

The one who will die is Polinurus who is again piloting the ship. So Virgil crafts these book end scenes of Polinurus and Neptune surrounding the funeral games.

That final passage of Polinurus falling prey to the god of sleep and falling off the ship is fascinating. I wish I could copy the entire thing, but it’s a little long. I urge you to go back and read it. But here’s what I think is enlightening.

By now
dank night had nearly reached her turning-point in the sky,
and stretched on the hand thwarts beneath their oars
the crews gave way to a deep, quiet rest, when down
from the stars the God of Sleep came gliding gently,
cleaving the dark mists and scattering shadows,
hunting you, Ploinurus, bringing you fatal sleep
in all your innocence.
(ll 929-36)

So then, the “innocent” life is shed as a sacrifice for the rest of the crew, “one life for the lives of many me”. Of course it recalls the Christ story, but this is written before Christ. No wonder the people of the middle ages thought that Virgil’s work was a prefiguring of Christianity.

So why does Virgil intertwine the festive funeral games with all these allusions and narratives of death? I think it’s to show again the sacrifice of Aeneas and the Trojans to build Rome. So much pain and sacrifice has to go into the building of the state of Rome. So much heart aches. Happiness for Virgil is elusive and always tinged with sadness.

[Janine]

Virgil, I am a foreign invader! I was just curious, since you said you were occuppied in here tonight and could not post much on the short story thread; so stopped in to see how many posts you have all filled up, so far on this discussion of "The Aeneid"...felt to me like this discussion has been going on forever, so I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project? I didn't realised the work was that long, but I am sure it is very involved, with much symbolism, etc. This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

Quark, those book plates are really neat. Thank for posting them; I will have to check other pages to see if you posted more pictures. You always come up with interesting things to look at.

Well, just making my appearance and now my disappearance. Hi and goodbye everyone; happy posting!