D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Very good analysis. I think I was suggesting similar earlier on the two different women, but I think Dark Muse adds more with the notion of the fallen woman. Though that implies male power over female, but I happen to think that Lawrence is after dramatizing a female power over men in this story.

It is true in the courtly love example there is more of an aspect of male power and male domimence, but than he says that is how he feels about Connie, that he feels his manly power with her.

But looking at it the Arthrurian way, in that story Morgan does have power over Arthur in her sedcution over him. Much like Winne, she is the one that really controls and contrives that situation.

[Virgil]

most are; they either need a mother, a grandmother or a maid; some all three rolled into one!

You and my wife have obviously been talking.

It is true in the courtly love example there is more of an aspect of male power and male domimence, but than he says that is how he feels about Connie, that he feels his manly power with her.

But looking at it the Arthrurian way, in that story Morgan does have power over Arthur in her sedcution over him. Much like Winne, she is the one that really controls and contrives that situation.

You know Dark Muse, your analogy may hold. I've been somewhat reluctant only because Arthurian legend is not something Lawrence normally taps into. He's certainly taps into Biblical, and certainly classical (as we see even in this story), and he certainly in later years taps into aboriginal legends and myths, but I can't recall he's ever tapped into chivalric (sp?) lore. But it does seem like here you may be right. Coutts is a sort of knight errant traveling through. Can anyone think of another work where Lawrence alludes to chivalric romance?

[Scheherazade]

But in the end, he did have a nice birthday celebration at a restaurant.

Busman's holiday?

[Dark Muse]

You and my wife have obviously been talking.



You know Dark Muse, your analogy may hold. I've been somewhat reluctant only because Arthurian legend is not something Lawrence normally taps into. He's certainly taps into Biblical, and certainly classical (as we see even in this story), and he certainly in later years taps into aboriginal legends and myths, but I can't recall he's ever tapped into chivalric (sp?) lore. But it does seem like here you may be right. Coutts is a sort of knight errant traveling through. Can anyone think of another work where Lawrence alludes to chivalric romance?

I do not know any other story with chivalric lore, as I have not read that many yet. But in The Man Who Loves Islands, he does use a little Celtic Mythology and Arturian legend is tied into the Celtic Culture.

[Virgil]

Yes, he does use Celtic and Germanic lore. I was thinking of that after I posted. While you're right that Arthurian evolved from Celtic, there is a significant gap between them. The Arthurian allusion in this story is very chivalric, and Celtic lore doesn't really use chivalry.

[Dark Muse]

Yes that is true, but, in a way, with the symbolism used throughout the story, and with Winnie on one side and Connie on the other side, I almost so this story as being like that sort of tug-a-war, between the Pagan, and the Christian, which also plays into Arthurian lore

[Virgil]

Yes that is true, but, in a way, with the symbolism used throughout the story, and with Winnie on one side and Connie on the other side, I almost so this story as being like that sort of tug-a-war, between the Pagan, and the Christian, which also plays into Arthurian lore

Haha, no I am agreeing with you. And interesting he is mixing up his allusions. This is early Lawrence and i guess he didn't mind the disconguety (sp?) between them, unless the contrast is striving to make a point. Not sure what that would be.


Anti, "The Man Who Loved Islands" is an excellent story. I had not remembered it being that good when I read it years ago. But when we discussed it a few months ago, it turned out to be top notch. I would include it among his best.

[Dark Muse]

I know Janine had some other points she wanted to make, and I had responded to the other parts of the text she posted, but it got burried under everything, so I just thought I would repost my reponses to the rest of the text so Janine does not think that the rest of her post is being ignored and to bring attention back to some of the other things she wanted to discuss.

Now that I have the time, I thought I would address some of the other things you brought up.

So what is the underlining theme in this part of the story – what exactly are they saying to each other. Interesting to note are the references to words we have encountered throughout the story ‘lamp’, ‘illuminate’ ‘candle-light’….so many references in this story to ‘light’.

To me it seems here as if Coutts is saying that only Winne can truly "see" him or understand him, perhaps she even knows him better than he knows himself.

This private washing up reminds me of Maurice in ‘The Blind Man’ – how he also stood contemplating his wife and their life together..

That is interesting, the two similar scenes in the different stories. I did not really notice that the first time.

So because they are defenseless and exposed to each other in this way is this why they feel this hatred of each other? Also, if you notice Coutts feels a vague fear of her? He also states she was intense and unnatural and made him feel the same when he was with her. From what is this fear born, does everyone thing? Is it born out of his temptation or something other. Is it born out of the fact that he knows inwardly that Winifred would like to hold her will over him, control him?

I do not get the impression that they hate each other because they are defenseless and exposed, but rather I think more, that because of their love/hate relationship with each other, that leaves them feeling defenseless and exposed.

I think perhaps Coutt's fear of her comes from the fact that she does have such a hold over him, and the fact that he cannot seem to resist her. He is afraid of her, and perhaps that is part of the hate they have, because he cannot control his emotions towards her.

It might also be that the fear comes from the fact that they know each other so well.

I wondered what significance that had. Is he a pianist? Also is that not a German score?

Yes it is German, "Walküre" is German for Valkyrie, and the "Waulkure score, is from the Wagner Ride of the Valkyries opera

[Janine]

My husband usually does the cooking here and the laundry and a lot of the housework. But he can't even go buy a card for his mother without calling me to ask which one! LOL

Maybe there are too many choices these days. I find the card aisle overwhelms me. At least be glad he does all the rest; few men would. That must be a riot - him calling you and reading you all the card verses. I do that if my mother asks me to pick one up for her; she and I don't have the same taste at all.

Virgil's post didn't contain anything I could pick on! LOL I agree with him!

Agreement is a good thing. I think we are all back in harmony today.

Originally Posted by Virgil and answered by Dark Muse
"Very good analysis. I think I was suggesting similar earlier on the two different women, but I think Dark Muse adds more with the notion of the fallen woman. Though that implies male power over female, but I happen to think that Lawrence is after dramatizing a female power over men in this story."

It is true in the courtly love example there is more of an aspect of male power and male domimence, but than he says that is how he feels about Connie, that he feels his manly power with her.

It seems to me with Connie he is the stronger will although she too keeps him sexually at bay, until they are married; so in some respect she hold power over him. He is her respectable noble knight and she is goddess or maiden. He does not care to tarnish her - he sees her on that pedestal and to bring her down to earthy contact with him would tarnish her in his mind. She could no longer resume her post on the pedestal. Ok, but with Winifred, again woman holds power over Coutts although the feels he has a better change of mastering her. Of course he does not. He wants physical contact now but with Connie he must wait. He is probably one very frustrated guy. No doubt he may still be virginal in this story. At anyrate we all know that neither woman will be right for him, nor will they work out in the long term scheme of his life. As Dark Muse pointed out he sees Connie as a dream or illusion. She is not quite real to him being untarnishable. He sees Winifred as someone who possesses the passion he craves presently. He thinks she will satisfy his passion and that there is some passionate potenial there. With Connie how would he know there would ever be passion? In both cases, if he did end up with either woman, I think these woman would dominate him in an offhand way.

But looking at it the Arthrurian way, in that story Morgan does have power over Arthur in her sedcution over him. Much like Winne, she is the one that really controls and contrives that situation.

She does and so does Merlin right? Doesn't Merlin cast magic around Arthur and therefore aids Morgan, or do I need to go back and read the tale again? I forget, Morgan was a witch right? Merlin a magician.

I do think Lawrence, in his younger days read Sir Walter Scott, and other tales of chivalry. The 'Witch a al Mode' was begun early, before Lawrence wrote even 1/3 of "Paul Morel", which became "Sons and Lovers".
Also, in this story he blantantely draws attention to this image of "The Lady of Shallot", which is so signifcant when he is speaking to Winifred. This symbolism also would indicate the direct reference to tales of chivalry.

I will look up these references: King Arthur, Merlin, Morgan, Sir Walter Scott, chivalry, and Lady of Shalot to Lawrence around this time period or his youth, in my indexes (various books)...see what I can come up with.



Originally Posted by Virgil

You and my wife have obviously been talking.

I think so!

You know Dark Muse, your analogy may hold. I've been somewhat reluctant only because Arthurian legend is not something Lawrence normally taps into. He's certainly taps into Biblical, and certainly classical (as we see even in this story), and he certainly in later years taps into aboriginal legends and myths, but I can't recall he's ever tapped into chivalric (sp?) lore. But it does seem like here you may be right. Coutts is a sort of knight errant traveling through. Can anyone think of another work where Lawrence alludes to chivalric romance?

I don't know; I think I have perceived him using references to Authurian legend before this, maybe it was in "The White Peacock" or other short stories I read. Did he employ any of the chivalous images in "Women in Love"? He seemed to mix all kinds of symbolism of the ancients, Greek mythology, German lore, the British Isles in that book. It was quite a potpourri.

I do not know any other story with chivalric lore, as I have not read that many yet. But in The Man Who Loves Islands, he does use a little Celtic Mythology and Arturian legend is tied into the Celtic Culture.

Yes, that certainly would be one. A good example and a good story. You should read it, Antiquarian. We had a great discussion on that one. Virgil, I think he would have been more inclined to tape into the Celtic images, Arthurian legend, in his early writings, don't you? Making me curious enough now to go research it. I do, however, recall a passage in "The Winged Serpent" where he mades reference to Kate thinking of the dark mysterious celtic culture and peoples in Ireland. I don't think these ideas were ever far from Lawrence's mind.

[Dark Muse]

She does and so does Merlin right? Doesn't Merlin cast magic around Arthur and therefore aids Morgan, or do I need to go back and read the tale again? I forget, Morgan was a witch right? Merlin a magician.

It is true that Merlin does use some power reguarding Arthur, and in some ways helped to lead and dictate his fate, but Morgan and Merlin were enimies, Merlin ultimately was trying to help Arthur in his own way while Morgan was envious of Arthur and wanted his power. And she tries at one point to kill Merlin

[Janine]

Quote by Antiquarian

Trouble is, Coutts really does not want to be a knight, does he? He doesn't want to play the "rescurer" to Connie's "damsel in distress." At least I don't think so. I think it might make him feel good for awhile to do so, but he knows the responsibility would weigh him down.

I agree with you Antiquarian, deep down he really does not want this. He doesn't know truly what he wants. That seems to be his problem. I think he is more in love with the idea of marriage in this case. He feels he should like to marry but he has not fully or realistically worked out in his own mind just what that means to him. I don't think being tied down would work for Coutts; as we saw in the short story 'The Shades or Spring' which does represent a Lawrence type figure going back to visit his former sweetheart they both saw marriage in a much different light. The woman felt she must be rooted to the earth and was a part of it, whereas the ex-lover felt marriage should be free in the sense that a couple should not be routed but free to travel, etc. In Lawrence's own case that was how he did live his life. He never even owned a house. He made Frieda hold the title to the ranch that was given to him. He felt no man owned the earth. In this case in this story, Connie would be routed to her community and church. I don't see that Coutts felt that to really be the life for him in the furture. He was casual about it. He acted to Winifred like it would not matter - that he would not care about anything falling into this scheme of conventional living. However he would care a great deal. This oviously was not a realistic plan for him in the long run. It was not his path, it would have been his wife, Connie's plan. He would have simply had to go along with it. This was the problem with Jessie as well. Lawrence was not a rooted man; he wanted to travel and see the world. His vistas were much broader than Eastwood or even London. Yes, the restraint and the responsibility would definitely weigh him down and drag him down, destroy his true self. He said he could not be his true self with Connie. I think thoughout the course of this story he is looking and craving for his true self but he is going about it all wrong. He is way off-track, grasping at straws, so to speak.

Quote by Dark Muse

Yes that is true, but, in a way, with the symbolism used throughout the story, and with Winnie on one side and Connie on the other side, I almost so this story as being like that sort of tug-a-war, between the Pagan, and the Christian, which also plays into Arthurian lore

Dark Muse, That sound about right to me. That is another underlining theme perhaps.

Quotes by Virgil

Haha, no I am agreeing with you. And interesting he is mixing up his allusions. This is early Lawrence and i guess he didn't mind the disconguety (sp?) between them, unless the contrast is striving to make a point. Not sure what that would be.

Virgil , did you mean discongruity? I think the word might be 'discontinuity'...it is the only one I can find close to it in my dictionary. 'discongruity seems not to be a real word either.
This is early Lawrence so I can well image these images being part of his resources to draw on at this time.

Anti, "The Man Who Loved Islands" is an excellent story. I had not remembered it being that good when I read it years ago. But when we discussed it a few months ago, it turned out to be top notch. I would include it among his best.

I loved that story - yes, it was best after we discussed it and saw/perceived all the symbolism in it. It was quite amazing to me then. I think it was one of his best, also. I was trying to think which I would vote on as my favorite the other night and I found that all we have discussed I liked. I don't think I could truly choose just one.

It's gets a lot worse than that, Janine. He'll call me almost daily and say "Where should I wait outside the gym for you to pick me up?" The only answer I can give him is, "Outside the gym." LOL Then he stays on the phone until I actually get there.

We are teaching him to drive. Being European, he always took public transportation, a car can be a liability there as there's no place to park. It gets kind of scary at times. I'm terrified the first time he'll drive alone after he gets his license.

Maybe, he is just an indecisive person. I am like that sometimes. Yes, driving can be scary, especially with all the traffic these days. I can understand your concerns. I had a son and taught him and then recall those days he started to drive on his own (a mother's nightmare!) and I know; first time out alone, you have your heart racing the whole time they are gone and sigh a breath of relief when they are home safely again.

Enjoy 'The Man Who Loved Islands' - lots of symbolism there, Antiquarian, and you appreciate that aspect of Lawrence's writing. When you complete it, you should go back and read our discussion. It was quite good and we delved into it, extensively. Everyone liked that story very much. It was fascinating. You will love the ending.

Quote by Dark Muse

It is true that Merlin does use some power reguarding Arthur, and in some ways helped to lead and dictate his fate, but Morgan and Merlin were enimies, Merlin ultimately was trying to help Arthur in his own way while Morgan was envious of Arthur and wanted his power. And she tries at one point to kill Merlin

Dark Muse, thanks for updating me on that - my memory on the story eluded me today. Yes, I did think them enemies but was not sure. Wasn't someone Arthur's half sister - was that Morgan? I guess I really do need to go refresh my memory and read the legend again. I am sure Wikipedia would fill me in on the tale.

DM, only thing I missed here is your longer entry when you answered some of my questions from the other post. I will get to that later tonight. I have to put it on-hold for now; hope you don't mind. Mostly, I agree with all you said there anyway. Thanks for re-posting that....it did get lost a few pages back.

[Dark Muse]

It is quite alright, you can take your time, no rush

[Janine]

Quote by Dark Muse

It is quite alright, you can take your time, no rush

You are all so reasonable - thanks for your patience with me. I guess this week baby had to come first. I held her yesterday for hours; she is so precious.

My husband can be very indecisive at times, Janine, but other times he's so stubborn and opinionated. LOL But he is easygoing and easy to live with.

Sounds like my last boyfriend. They sure can be a mixed bag!

I'll look for the discussion on "The Man Who Loved Islands" after I read the story. You're right. I do love symbolism. I try to use it in my own stories. I'm also a fan of Lawrence's prose. Just the prose, itself, is quite lovely to read.

I love the prose as well - that is what really stands out to me - I just seem to be easily drawn into it and feel it flows so poetically. I found these two passages in "The White Peacock" that I must type out for you. They are so touching and so well written, about this tiny birdnest that is found in the hoof-print of a cow in the muddy field. I just found the second part, which comes up later in the book, when he finds this nest again and the eggs have hatched. It is so beautiful it makes me cry.

[Janine]

I love the tiny details like that in his prose. They just make it a joy to read.

Antiquarian, I am a very detailed minded person, so that is probably what draws me to his writing - like that little bird's nest - a world all unto itself - he zeros in on natural things like that so exquisitely, and with such a delicate, yet enhanced sensitivity.

I think Amazon has that book for sale now in a not expensive paperback edition. I really should get it while I can since you said it's difficult to find.

Just looked it up. They have it. It's $26 for a paperback. That's a little steep, but I might get it. Strangely, the reviewers didn't seem to like it. Oh, there's only one review. And that person said there was too much descriptive detail. I love Lawrence's descriptive detail.

Yes, most people do criticize it extensively. Actually, Michael Black sees it's value. As a complete novel, it is some under-developed, but it has it's fine areas. I would not spend that much for the book; that is way too much for a paperback. I think it is rare but can be located from time to time cheaper on Amazon. I would recommend you read "Women in Love" or even "The Rainbow" instead next. My favorite still is "Women in Love" - you would love the symbolism in that book, and the complex interaction of the two couples. Meanwhile my advice would be, to put "The White Peacock" in your 'wishlist' and keep watching it. You might find someone lists it cheaper, one of these days. I did that and got lucky one day, myself. Really $26 is way too steep...is it a used paperback or new? Add shipping to that and it is really high. It is not that long a novel. I will keep an eye out for you, also. Together we can locate it cheaper I think.


editing this - just went to look up the book on Amazon and found these:

I think this is the general listings of that book – there are many of them available from various publishers and sellers.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi.../ref=dp_olp_2?

This is the one I think I own – it is by Penquin Classics

http://www.amazon.com/White-Peacock-...399871&sr=1-18

Below is a seller of a used one which is way cheaper – you can check them out. Click on their feedback rating to see if they are reliable. Also, you would have to check the shipping cost – shipped from the UK....see if it is worth the difference.

http://www.amazon.com/WHITE-PEACOCK-...4/ref=sr_1_17?

There are a lot of sellers on there you could check out for a decent copy.

[Virgil]

Virgil , did you mean discongruity? I think the word might be 'discontinuity'...it is the only one I can find close to it in my dictionary. 'discongruity seems not to be a real word either.
This is early Lawrence so I can well image these images being part of his resources to draw on at this time.

Eek. I meant incongruous. For some reason the word didn't come to me before.