A Rose For Emily

[NickAdams]

Thanks for the flag Virgil.

Good or bad, I haven't seen so many lengthy replies in so little time. I need time to read through it all, before I comment on the story.

I know this has been cleared up, but Faulkner wrote the first draft of Sanctuary for money, but the book that is in print now, was done with artistic care. Read it if you don't believe me. It is like comparing Stephen Hero to Portrait.

I agree with Virgil, in that so much is done in this story. It satisfies like a novella.

[Virgil]

Finally, sorry for the digression but I seized the opporunity of what you said to introduce something about our history and culture. LOL.

Thanks. I'm always interested and trying to learn. Yes, I should have mentioned our north was more urban versus the agrarian south. That's a very good comparison and the distinction holds for most places around the world.

As to our civil war, you can read a bit about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War. It lasted four years, but there were 620,000 deaths. And a huge number of maimed soldiers. It was practically a generation of men with missing limbs. It was the beginning of automatic weapons.

[Nossa]

I can see that I missed much in the discussion, but I didn't have time to finish it till now.
I didn't read the whole dicussion yet, so I'll write my personal impressions then read what you guys said
I have to start by saying that Faulkner's way of writing is just amazing. I always thought that a good literary work is that which you can see in your mind. In this story, you can see the people, the description is so vivid and precise, the events are realistic, cuz I know we had people like Miss Emily and her father in our country back in the 40s and 50s, people who cared so much about customs and social status.

'Alive, Miss Emily had been a tradition, a duty, and a care; a sort of hereditary obligation upon the town...'

This is one of the things that sort of left me with feelings of longing. We don't see it now much, not even in the American South I believe, that one person is cared for the way Faulkner depicted Miss Emily's life in her town. My father always tells me of old people who lived in the town where he grew up, and it amazed me how one person can have the care of a whole town. Being a city girl (in one of the biggest, most crowded capitals on God's green Earth..lol) I always found it hard to believe, but I always wished for something like it.

'... Then we knew that this was to be expected too; as if that quality of her father which had thwarted her woman's life so many times had been too virulent and too furious to die.'

I think my first encounter with Miss Emily, when the deputation was in her house, and how she met them. I personally felt that maybe she was a bit of a cold person, but then afterwards, I couldn't help but feel really sad for her, thinking how Homer left her and all (before I knew about the corpse), how she never went out and how the house door remained closed, it made me feel sad for her, and I kept hoping that maybe at some point something or someone would make her life a bit better.

I kinda flinched, though, when they finally discovered Homer's corpse in her bed. But then again, she was probably just too desperate for love or any kind of company, that she kept his corpse with her in the bed!

But there were still others, older people, who said that even grief could not cause a real lady to forget noblesse oblige-

I don't think people of the town wanted her dead and that's why they talked about her committing suicide, they were just chatting, like they always did, about her life (they even stopped caring for her and her news, I think they always just wanted something to talk about, and when there was nothign to talk about, they stopped). That's just how people are, and to a certain extent, wouldn't you agree that maybe that was one of the reasons of her killing Homer, it's all about social status, even after her father's death

I think I'm gonna re-read it, cuz these were just first impressions on the story. I feel that my remarks might be a bit...dunnow, not like your remarks (I'm really not that good in analysing, I'm trying though) but hopefully I'll have more things to discuss when I read it again

[Virgil]

Nossa, your first impressions are excellent. I think they are mostly right on. Let me highlight this:

My father always tells me of old people who lived in the town where he grew up, and it amazed me how one person can have the care of a whole town. Being a city girl (in one of the biggest, most crowded capitals on God's green Earth..lol) I always found it hard to believe, but I always wished for something like it.

I think Faulkner was after that small town life where the town both cares and formulates constrictions that oppose one's idiviualism. My parents came from samll town in Italy and they describe a world where towns people are both caring but also busybodies inserting themselves into your life. (That is completely different world than that of New York City, as a side note ) That is the good and bad, and I think we are both made to understand this duality. We can sympathize and antipathize (is that the right word?) at times with both the town and with Emily.

[Nossa]

Yes, the south, where the customs and manners and appearances are so important is even more rural than the north, where it's more urban and where the people are open minded. I can see now you understand this aspect of the story well and that's really terrific. People are so different the world over, are they?

I think the idea of customs and appearances exist everywhere, you don't have to be living in the American South or an Arabian tribe to know it. Here in Egypt we don't have tribes, but such ideas existed in the countryside (probably similar to the american south). We had a feudal way of life at some point, and social status were even more important, at times, than people themselves. It's obvious that Miss Emily's social status was more important than her own happiness, and even the life of her lover.

Nossa, thank you for giving us your first impressions. They add a lot. Be sure to come back and let us know anything new you may have gained on a second reading

I will, though I'm not sure how useful my remakrs were...they're pretty obvious to anyone who reads the story

HerG, I guess they thought it would be best if she'd kill herself since she didn't seem to have anything to live for anymore. Her way of life was gone, her father was gone, Homer seemed to be gone. I don't think the town bore her any ill will when they thought it would be for the best. I think they just thought Miss Emily had lost so much, and couldn't fit into the changing values, etc. of the south.

That's an interesting thought. I think, however, that those who chattered about her didn't really care. Maybe the elder generations did, the people who were once there and died (like Colonel Sartoris). I mean, they wanted to push forward the marriage to get rid of the cousins, that doesn't sound like they really cared about her or what's best for her. It's like when we talk about celebreties and speculate what they'll do and if they'll break up and all.

I don't know. Do you think her social status was more important to her than love? I think surely it was more important to her father, but I'm not sure if it was truly more important to Miss Emily or if she simply couldn't break away. I'm undecided. Of course, she wouldn't let them put numbers on her house for the post office. The would support the theory that social status was more important to her. However, she went riding about in public with Homer, which would suggest that love was more important. She certainly didn't mind being seen with him and he was well below her in status.

I agree. But what did she do eventually? She gave in, or else we would have seen her married to Homer. She tried to defy her social status and the imposed customs, but she couldn't face the reality alone, she couldn't stand against the whole town, not to mention the history of her family especially her father. Her status killed her emotionaly and killed Homer physically.

Nossa, HerG, Nick, Virgil, anyone else, do any of you have any ideas about this:

I suppose Miss Emily ordered the toilet to convince the cousins that Homer was going to marry her, but knowing he wasn't, bought the arsenic to poison Homer.

Do any of you think I'm right here or barking up the wrong tree?

I think she bought the toilet cuz she did think she was getting married. The poison was probably a final desperate attempt to have love, or something like it. She went public with her relationship with Homer, I think if she wanted to convince anyone of her family she would have taken a different method.

Yeah I think a second read is vital at this point...there's much more to the story

I just have one remark concerning Homer and his will to get married. I'm not sure that the story was really about whether Homer was going to marry her. It's about showing Miss Emily's attempt to defy the traditions and the failure of it. It's about the outcomes of keeping her social status on the expense of her life. Just a thought.

[DapperDrake]

Yeah I think a second read is vital at this point...there's much more to the story

I just have one remark concerning Homer and his will to get married. I'm not sure that the story was really about whether Homer was going to marry her. It's about showing Miss Emily's attempt to defy the traditions and the failure of it. It's about the outcomes of keeping her social status on the expense of her life. Just a thought.

Hmm.. the author made a point of the arsenic being labelled "for rats", I'd say the inference is that homer wooed Miss Emily and slept with her, Emily then realised he had no intention of marrying her and so when he came back to sleep with her again she poisoned him. partly because she wanted to keep him and partly because of her indignation and fear of judgement and ostracism.
I think its plain that Emily wanted to marry Homer, she was desperate enough, she made a show of going around town with him. The only reason for that could of been her conviction of a firm attachment.

[Janine]

Hmm.. the author made a point of the arsenic being labelled "for rats", I'd say the inference is that homer wooed Miss Emily and slept with her, Emily then realised he had no intention of marrying her and so when he came back to sleep with her again she poisoned him. partly because she wanted to keep him and partly because of her indignation and fear of judgement and ostracism.

Yes, I just got that 'rat' idea. It is rather witty, actually - Homer was a 'rat', a we call it in the states. He used her, woeing her and leading her along. He must have taken advantage and I suppose she did believe him, being the naive person she is described as. In a sense, she never grew up because of her overbearing father; he kept her a child, she had no real chance to become a woman. So the 'for rats' label ends up being appropriate, even though poor Miss Emily is probably not aware of that idea at all. Her intention is strickly to keep Homer to herself. Afterall, she did try to keep her father, as well when he died, but finally the town's people took him away. This time she would be assured of keeping the man by her always by hiding him in the attic room.

[DapperDrake]

That's it Janine , I hadn't though of Emily being especially naive but as you say, with her upbringing what chance did she have? She latch on to the first chance of love she had.
One thing in the story makes me wonder though - What was it that transpired with the priest that went to see Emily?

[Nossa]

I never thought of the word 'rat' in this way actually!
But still, as Janine said, she wanted to keep him for herself, I think it was more about love than revenge.

[DapperDrake]

It's quite a sad story really, my heart bleeds for Miss Emily, she desperately wanted love but circumstances conspired heavily against her.
I can't help imagining how her life would of turned out if Homer had been a decent bloke and actually married her. I'm not convinced Emily was actually crazy, I think that given a chance for a normal life she might of flourished and it was just her introverted desperation that made her cling on to first her father's corpse and then her lover's.
Yes, I think it was very much more love than revenge.

[Chester]

There’s no question she’s a sad and tragic character. I called her a wacko earlier but that doesn’t preclude a certain amount of sympathy. But I found her difficult to relate to (the same with the town, the other major character in the story, in my estimation) and the reason I’m lukewarm on the work. I would suggest, Antiquarian, that one’s level of sympathy (mild from me, "profound sadness" from you) might say more about the reader than the writer. Perhaps all of literature is like this. Each story a kind of Rorschach test. For my part, I didn’t find her written in such a way so as to evoke profound sadness.

[Nossa]

^^ I also wondered about the smell of Homer's corpse...I'm still not decided on how the smell wasn't detected by anyone.

I agree with you in feeling sad for Emily. I just feel that she was wronged and she lived a life that she didn't choose but was imposed upon her by society and family (even her father's death didn't really make any difference, as the people of the town played his role afterwards).

Maybe the story can be thought of as one about the tyranny of society. Maybe Faulkner didn't see much use in holding on to such traditions, that eventually might lead to the unhappiness of the people. And, also, that might be the reason why he wrote such a sad story with such a shocking ending.

I'm gonna re-read the story, the idea of marriage is still unclear to me, though I'm tending towards believing that Homer was going to marry Emily and maybe just left her in the last minute?

And I think Miss Emily's taxes remained unpaid, she always sent back the tax notice unaclaimed.

[Virgil]

I don't know. Do you think her social status was more important to her than love? I think surely it was more important to her father, but I'm not sure if it was truly more important to Miss Emily or if she simply couldn't break away. I'm undecided. Of course, she wouldn't let them put numbers on her house for the post office. The would support the theory that social status was more important to her. However, she went riding about in public with Homer, which would suggest that love was more important. She certainly didn't mind being seen with him and he was well below her in status.

So, I don't know.

I'm not sure one can tell from the story. It's too short. But knowing other Faulkner works, I would think the answer is that she cannot break away from her identity. She doesn't have what Lena in Light In August has, the ability to recreate herself. And it's not just a woman thing, though her sex plays a part in this story. Quentin Compson from The Sound and the Fury also doesn't have that ability to transcend.

Yeah I think a second read is vital at this point...there's much more to the story

I just have one remark concerning Homer and his will to get married. I'm not sure that the story was really about whether Homer was going to marry her. It's about showing Miss Emily's attempt to defy the traditions and the failure of it. It's about the outcomes of keeping her social status on the expense of her life. Just a thought.

Hmm.. the author made a point of the arsenic being labelled "for rats", I'd say the inference is that homer wooed Miss Emily and slept with her, Emily then realised he had no intention of marrying her and so when he came back to sleep with her again she poisoned him. partly because she wanted to keep him and partly because of her indignation and fear of judgement and ostracism.
I think its plain that Emily wanted to marry Homer, she was desperate enough, she made a show of going around town with him. The only reason for that could of been her conviction of a firm attachment.

I think both of you can support your argument, or perhaps neither. There just isn't any definitive detail. Faulkner leaves us to speculate. Knowing how Faulkner worked sometimes, he would know a detail in his mind but leave it out to create a sense of mystery. How many details in our lives of our neighbors do we just not know? We speculate. It makes for a more powerful story. Of course it depends on the detail.

[Nossa]

Nossa, Miss Emily's taxes were paid, but perhaps not by her. Perhaps by the aldermen, who later had passed away when Miss Emily returns the tax notice unopened.

Oh..I probably didn't notice this. Which reminds me, I shouldn't read Faulkner while I'm studying Shakespeare...too much...literature

I also wanna state that Faulkner's style and how he writes his sentences isn't that difficult. I think if you try reading someone like Dickens for instance you'll find him more complex and harder to read. Just my opinion.

[Virgil]

Yes, I just got that 'rat' idea. It is rather witty, actually - Homer was a 'rat', a we call it in the states. He used her, woeing her and leading her along. He must have taken advantage and I suppose she did believe him, being the naive person she is described as. In a sense, she never grew up because of her overbearing father; he kept her a child, she had no real chance to become a woman. So the 'for rats' label ends up being appropriate, even though poor Miss Emily is probably not aware of that idea at all. Her intention is strickly to keep Homer to herself. Afterall, she did try to keep her father, as well when he died, but finally the town's people took him away. This time she would be assured of keeping the man by her always by hiding him in the attic room.

Just leave it to you women to think the worst of men.