Chekhov Short Story Thread

[Quark]

Yes I got the feeling of the suggestion of missery or suffring from that imager, I also found the imagery of the empty bottle interesting, and wondered if the fact that bottle was indeed empty was not ment to be representive of something. It does kind of relate and reflect to ideas that will later be presented in the story, with the pair of mother and daughter widows.

Or perhpas the Student himself, at this point is "empty" becasue as you said in this stay he is ignorant and well currently he is only concered with his sport of shooting and not really thinking about the greater questions of life.

I hadn't thought about the emptiness of it. Perhaps it's a reference to a lack of meaning the student feels before his epiphany. I'm not quite sure about it.

I was a bit confused on the signifigance of that particular story, and how that story had led him to his conclusion of the relationship between the past and the present, and I was not certain just how that story connected to the widows or why they would relate to that story.

The story is significant because it's an expression of the grief that the widows feel. The student thinks to himself before he starts the story:

And now, shrinking from the cold, he thought that just such a wind had blown in the days of Rurik and in the time of Ivan the Terrible and Peter, and in their time there had been just the same desperate poverty and hunger, the same thatched roofs with holes in them, ignorance, misery, the same desolation around, the same darkness, the same feeling of oppression -- all these had existed, did exist, and would exist, and the lapse of a thousand years would make life no better.

The tears of the women prove the truth of this statement. Their pasts were filled with this oppression, and the student taps into this with his story of Peter.

[blazeofglory]

One of the stories by Checkov is the death of a clerk I never can forget . He is really immortal in his writing. The other that is afresh in my memory chamber is Grief, and the way he talked to a horse to express the pains he lives with.

[Janine]

We've never had this many people involved before, so it's going to be a little difficult until we figure out a good way to go about this. I tried the post chunks of the story method last time, but that didn't seem to work. This story is a little easier since it's only three pages, and I don't have to keep people on one part of the story since there only is one part. The L discussion is lot harder this time around because the story is so multi-part. Everyone will naturally be interested in something different than everyone else. It may be difficult to focus in that situation. I don't know, of course, because I haven't seen all the posts yet. But, I would imagine trying to reply to all the posts--which have different ideas--would get tiring.

That's an understatement. Right about now I am ready to tear my hair out! I told Virgil he has to pick the story and direct the discussion next month. I am trying desperately to get the discussion back on track. I was also waiting a bit for you to arrive, where have you been? Are you too overwhelmed with all the posts so far.
Virgil just popped in and he thinks he is behind but I think he not so behind really, not with the text I posted so far. I think it beneficial to do so and in this thread as well, because when we take appart the text by sentences and phrases we notice so much more, like that hollow sound like blowing in a bottle. Keep trudging away, Quark and post more text when you can. I am anxious to move on but don't rush it. We have time and I am bogged down in the L thread, as you can see.

There are three parts to the story (sunset, the student's story, sunrise), and each is connect to the others through repeated images, sounds, or actions. It supposed to show the link between the past, future, and present. The student realizes that there is truth behind everything that is omni-present, and the environment around him is meant to be a demonstration of that.

Yes, that is real good, insightful and I like your ideas here of past, present and future. I like the fact the environment takes on this special significance to the student.

The interesting thing about these repetitions, though, is that they are not all the same. The beginning of the story has a merry, upbeat mood while the scene at night is morbidly depressing. Finally, the ending is encouraging and hopeful. Even though the beginning of the story and the middle of the story have birds calling (thrushes and cocks, respectively), these parts of the story are incredibly different. I have a few ideas for why this is, but I haven't picked the one I want to put forward.

Oh, I will be interested in hearing your theory on that aspect.

I interpreted the hunter's shot and the pitiful sound to be opposing moods more than opposite side of the life-cycle. The "gay" sound of the rifle indicates joviality while the droning noise in the swamp is solemn and sort of unsettling. The first sound is blissfully enjoying the moment and the other is cognizant of the sadness elsewhere.

Didn't think of that but I guess if one was a hunter you would understand. I don't like hunting so it sounded ominous to me and not joyous. I see your point now. There are a lot of contrasts just in the very first paragraph, even within the same sentences. It is very well-crafted.

Yes, Lawrence was a fine short story writer. In fact, the one you're doing in the thread right now is one of the better stories we've read so far.

Yes, isn't the story great? Did you read the actual story yet. We are kind of held up and waiting for you, but I can't hold those flood gates back for long. We have a lot of enthusiastic posters in there, you know. It is a good lively group this time.

I'll address this point tomorrow. Right now, my short answer is that the student's telling of the story is meant to be clichéd. The student's rendering of the story is a clumsy simplification and told with odd language. Chekhov's audience may have found this dull. A century later, and in translation, we don't really pick up on this. I will post more on this tomorrow to make it clear.

Ok, I get the cliched part; I will wait for you to expound on that idea and the difference in the reader now and the audience then.

Only a tiny speck of hope? It ends with him discovering that truth and beauty govern the world, and that his life will have happiness and meaning. A bit more than a speck of hope, I think.

Ok, well maybe a big ray of sunshine instead! Yes, sounds hopeful to me anyway but then I have to admit, knowing the stories we had read of Chekhov's I was at first suspicious that was truly a happy hopeful ending.

[Janine]

Yes I got the feeling of the suggestion of missery or suffring from that imager, I also found the imagery of the empty bottle interesting, and wondered if the fact that bottle was indeed empty was not ment to be representive of something. It does kind of relate and reflect to ideas that will later be presented in the story, with the pair of mother and daughter widows.

It is an interesting idea. I think it would relate to the 'emptiness' the student feels until he has his 'epiphany', as Quark pointed out. This epiphany seems to fill him with wonder and a renewed sense of his life.

Or perhpas the Student himself, at this point is "empty" becasue as you said in this stay he is ignorant and well currently he is only concered with his sport of shooting and not really thinking about the greater questions of life.

This would go with my above statement. I think this would relate to the empty image better.

I was a bit confused on the signifigance of that particular story, and how that story had led him to his conclusion of the relationship between the past and the present, and I was not certain just how that story connected to the widows or why they would relate to that story.

I was thinking of the widows having lost loved ones and I was thinking of the two women in the biblical story, having lost a son/a companion, Mary Magdeline and Mary in relation to the two woman in this story. I think the women could relate to their loss with their own deep sense of loss.

Blazeofglory, we didn't read the first story you mention; it sounds good. However we did read "Misery" which I think is the same as "Grief". Do you know, Quark, is that the same story? If so we discussed that a few stories back; you might want to check out those posts. It was a good discussion.

[Dark Muse]

I was thinking of the widows having lost loved ones and I was thinking of the two women in the biblical story, having lost a son/a companion, Mary Magdeline and Mary in relation to the two woman in this story. I think the women could relate to their loss with their own deep sense of loss.

I did not think of that, though the story the Student tells, seems to be specially about Peter denying Christ, not so much Christ himself or the Cruxifiction but the actions of Peter after the fact.

I was trying to figure out how the idea of Peter's denying Christ could fit into the story.

[Janine]

I did not think of that, though the story the Student tells, seems to be specially about Peter denying Christ, not so much Christ himself or the Cruxifiction but the actions of Peter after the fact.

I was trying to figure out how the idea of Peter's denying Christ could fit into the story.

hummm...yeah I have to admit that is curious. It did seems to revolve more about the denying of Christ by Peter. I guess, if our fearless leader, Quark continues to post the text, we will get to that part and then examine it closer, to see if there is specific significance for the two woman, to the student's biblical story.

[OlgaG]

I love "The Student" story – small in form, perfect in shape, and very moving. I feel a very definite strong connection with Ivan (never mind he is almost 200 years old). We are “the students” of life, and I think, the learning to be continued…

I did not think of that, though the story the Student tells, seems to be specially about Peter denying Christ, not so much Christ himself or the Cruxifiction but the actions of Peter after the fact.

I was trying to figure out how the idea of Peter's denying Christ could fit into the story.

The biblical story is about betrayal and remorse. Peter was weak and scared, he denied Christ, but Peter later becomes one of the greatest of all saints. I gave it the same with Chekhov’s story meaning: from darkness - to truth and beauty.

[Dark Muse]

The biblical story is about betrayal and remorse. Peter was weak and scared, he denied Christ, but Peter later becomes one of the greatest of all saints. I gave it the same with Chekhov’s story meaning: from darkness - to truth and beauty.

That makes sense, I can see that within the story. The Student, takes the same sort of journey that Peter took, starting in the lonseome wintery forest and than moving to the greiving widows before coming out with his great revelation and understanding which lifts the cloud of gloom from him.

[Quark]

I was going to post about the Ivan's clumsy way of telling his story, but first I think I should respond to these posts.

I was trying to figure out how the idea of Peter's denying Christ could fit into the story.

hummm...yeah I have to admit that is curious. It did seems to revolve more about the denying of Christ by Peter.

But the student didn't betray anyone, did he? The story specifically focused on Peter's three betrayals of Christ. Did the student betray the widows? I didn't see that, but maybe I need to read it again and be sure.

I think Peter's episode in the garden does have some relation to the widows, and it's especially significant for the student. I'll start with Ivan and then move on to the widows. Peter and Ivan share a similar goal when the enter the garden. Both Peter and Ivan are recent converts to Christianity and they want to spread their new-found wisdom to the benighted peasants around them. At the campfire, however, they each have a realization. Peter's gaining of self-knowledge corresponds to the student's epiphany about story-telling. Through their failures, they become awakened to some new truth. In the same way Peter is told that he will betray Christ, the student knows the epiphany he is about to have before he tells his story. The sentences I quoted in my last post have the same idea as those toward the end, but the student isn't aware of their importance yet. When he gets to the campfire, though, everything becomes clear to him--as it did to Peter.

The connection to the widows is less explicit, but it's still there. Chekhov describes the daughter, Lukerya, as beaten down. Ivan tells the story of Christ being beaten, and this part resonates with her.

He loved Jesus passionately, intensely, and now he saw from far off how He was beaten. . . . "

Lukerya left the spoons and fixed an immovable stare upon the student.

Vasilisa, the mother, has a different reaction which is the result of the different life she's led. The older widow was nurse. Her contact with the families she's served has given her an "air of refinement," but really her condition is no better than the other impoverished villagers. The end of Ivan's story provokes tears from her because it's about a complacent person discovering how weak and miserable they are. Her crying comes at exactly the point in the story when Peter knows who he is:

He remembered, he came to himself, went out of the yard and wept bitterly -- bitterly. In the Gospel it is written: 'He went out and wept bitterly.' I imagine it: the still, still, dark, dark garden, and in the stillness, faintly audible, smothered sobbing.. . . ."

The student sighed and sank into thought. Still smiling, Vasilisa suddenly gave a gulp, big tears flowed freely down her cheeks, and she screened her face from the fire with her sleeve as though ashamed of her tears

Let's also not forget that both women are widows, and that Ivan's story is about the loss of a man who was important in Peter's life.

The biblical story is about betrayal and remorse. Peter was weak and scared, he denied Christ, but Peter later becomes one of the greatest of all saints. I gave it the same with Chekhov’s story meaning: from darkness - to truth and beauty.

Yes, I think you've hit on the connection between Peter and Ivan.

I think Chekhov might be too impressionistic in his brevity for me, and I'm even Russian! I should "get it." LOL

Wait, what do you mean? How is Chekhov impressionistic?

[Janine]

Hi Everyone! I came back over here, since I thought this thread less confusing than the Lawrence one, and now I do wonder.
But seriously, so far in reading of this entire page, I basically think I agree with Qlga and Quark on some of the parellels. I will also have to read that part over and see if anything more jumps out at me or suggests a different link to that bibilical story and how Ivan is relating, the widows as well.

and I thought this was going to be easy....*sigh*...*sign*

[Janine]

His stories are generally very brief. Instead of filling them with details and symbols, he usually just gives us an "impression" of something. He's impressionistic. This is not to say that he never uses symbols. Of course he does, but not like Lawrence, for example. Chekhov will give us an "impression" of the character or an "impression" of the landscape or an "impression" of the theme. This is not to detract from Chekhov's skills, either. Not many storytellers are able to capture so much in so little. Often, rather than following a linear plot, Chekhov just gives us an impression. His use of mood, character, scenery, etc. are all very impressionistic, and all to the good, but sometimes it takes a little longer to work everything out.

I can't agree with the connection between Peter and Ivan, though. I think the connection is just that - connections. I think, through the retelling of the story of Peter to Vasilisa and her daughter, Ivan comes to realize that all of life, from the very beginning is interconnected. He comes to realized the interconnectedness in life.

Ivan first mentions that the same cold wind blew during the the time of Rurik, Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great (Russian Czars) and then he believe Vasilisa and her daughter, because of their tears, must identify in some way with the story of the apostle Peter. And I think they do. I don't think it's from darkness to light, but rather a realization that all of life is interconnected and we are all a part of one undivided whole. The past is connected to the present and the present will be connected to the future.

Perhaps I'm living up to my "Russianness" after all! I don't really know.

Hello Ms Russia! This is a great post! You put that so well, so concisely. I really like this idea of yours about Chekhov being 'impressionistic'. I agree with all you said, but I will be anxious now to hear what others think. I most definitely believe the story points out the 'interconnectedness' of life, especially since he sites other historic examples to the two women. This reminds me of the scene in Hamlet when Hamlet is looking at the skull of poor Urick and speaks of Alexander and the same idea is imparted in this speech along with the whole idea of life's and nature's continuing cycles. I love that speech and now I know just why. It too, expresses the 'interconnctedness' of life.

Good post!

[Dark Muse]

I can't agree with the connection between Peter and Ivan, though. I think the connection is just that - connections. I think, through the retelling of the story of Peter to Vasilisa and her daughter, Ivan comes to realize that all of life, from the very beginning is interconnected. He comes to realized the interconnectedness in life.

Ivan first mentions that the same cold wind blew during the the time of Rurik, Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great (Russian Czars) and then he believe Vasilisa and her daughter, because of their tears, must identify in some way with the story of the apostle Peter. And I think they do. I don't think it's from darkness to light, but rather a realization that all of life is interconnected and we are all a part of one undivided whole. The past is connected to the present and the present will be connected to the future.

Perhaps I'm living up to my "Russianness" after all! I don't really know.

I am a bit confussed than, on just how the story of Peter estbalishes the idea of intercontectedness.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I suppose, though that seems to be making a lot of assumptions, and if anything it seems as if at least the daughter of the two windows was rather the one who was betrayed.

[Quark]

Just to make sure there isn't any confusion, I'll say this in bold. I'm not posting chunks of the story for discussion since the story is so short. Also, it's difficult to talk about one part without bringing up the rest. The story is about interconnectedness, so it's hard to break it up into segments to talk about. Instead, let's discuss the story as a whole.

His stories are generally very brief. Instead of filling them with details and symbols, he usually just gives us an "impression" of something. He's impressionistic. This is not to say that he never uses symbols. Of course he does, but not like Lawrence, for example. Chekhov will give us an "impression" of the character or an "impression" of the landscape or an "impression" of the theme. This is not to detract from Chekhov's skills, either. Not many storytellers are able to capture so much in so little. Often, rather than following a linear plot, Chekhov just gives us an impression. His use of mood, character, scenery, etc. are all very impressionistic, and all to the good, but sometimes it takes a little longer to work everything out.

Good observation. The story does give more vague impressions than anything definite. Part of this comes from the author's economy of expression. Chekhov believed that a narrator should be objective, and not veer away from the plot to make too many verbal embellishments. He once chided Maxim Gorky, "You have so many modifiers that the reader has trouble understanding and gets worn out...The brain can't grasp all that at once, and art must be grasped at once, instantaneously." Chekhov preferred to be elliptical rather than wordy, and it shows most prominently at the beginning of "The Student." The setting is described with a few sounds, and the student with only one sentence. Rather than showing a complete picture of the scene and character, we get only a vague impression.

I can't agree with the connection between Peter and Ivan, though. I think the connection is just that - connections. I think, through the retelling of the story of Peter to Vasilisa and her daughter, Ivan comes to realize that all of life, from the very beginning is interconnected. He comes to realized the interconnectedness in life.

I don't quite follow. Do you think there is a connection between Peter and Ivan, or not? If so, how do you think that connection is established in the story?

[Quark]

If someone was betrayed, they would still identify with the story. The Easter story the student tells is one of betraying and being betrayed. He could have told any number of others, but that's the one he chose, one about betrayal.

I didn't think the characters reacted to the betrayal so much, but more to the gaining of self-knowledge, brutality, and loss. I posted something earlier about the possible connections between the characters.