Earth Hour?

[Virgil]

Ha!!! Look at the following:

U.N. Forecasters: Global Temperatures to Decrease
Friday, April 04, 2008

Average global temperatures in 2008 are forecast to be lower than in previous years, thanks to the cooling effect of the ocean current in the Pacific, U.N. meteorologists say.

The World Meteorological Organisation's secretary-general, Michel Jarraud, said it was likely that La Nina, an abnormal cooling of sea surface temperatures in the Pacific Ocean, would continue into the summer.

If the forecast holds true, global temperatures will not have risen since 1998, prompting some to question climate change theory. [SNIP]

You can read the rest here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...naturalscience

But forget the rest, the key statement is that "global temperatures will not have risen since 1998." That's with all the industrialzation going on in China and India. They have been industrializing exponentially in the last ten years and the earth has actually cooled. Got that? Cooled. That tells you that whatever man has been contributing is a lower order effect. It's peanuts. The real driver, if the temperature measurements can be believed at all, is natural phenomena. This one degree increase is in the tolerance band of natural flutuaction. It's natural. Do you get it?

[Koa]

What I don't get, Virgy, is why then waste of energy is ok. I am also not convinced that global warming is man's product, or if it is it's just partially, but I don't see why then it's ok to abuse of electricity. When some people don't even have it anyway, no matter how China and India have developed.

You don't have over 35C degree and 90% humidity days in Italy or probably Europe in general.

This is the funniest joke I've heard in a while. In Northern Italy, namely in the Po plain (pianura padana) area, where I'm from, that's pretty much what summer is like. Well over 35 and THAT humidity is a bit of an extreme day, although possible, but give me 33-34 and 70-80% humidity, and that could be a random day between June and August. You sit without moving at 10pm in the dark, and you sweat. It doesn't cool off too much at night, which is why my dad got air conditioning, to be able to sleep. In the infamous summer of 2003, which did cause a rise in deaths especially in France if I'm not wrong, from June to end of August in my city there were like 5 days under 30 degrees. That was awful...
And I don't think I should remind you that the South of Italy can get to 35-40 pretty easily, even though it's not so humid and for us Northeners can feel like paradise because of that and of the breeze...
Even the UK gets over 35 on some extraordinary days once every several years...
I was surprised when I learnt that New York has such summers, as you also have super cold winters... but well using just my ignorant judgement, I can try and suppose that summer in NY is shorter than it is in Italy?

As to not wanting a car, that's your personal preference. I know if cars were denied in Italy the population would go crazy. To many, a car is a) an essential and more importantly b) a means of freedom. There is nothing more free than to drive somewhere you've never been at your time (not that of a train schedule) and go where you want and desire.

Oh most definitely, I've never seen anyone so mad about cars like Italians - but I've never been to the US. Using public transport is just not cool - and I'm not saying for the occasional trip but for daily routines like going to work. I don't know how people do it, last time I've been there I spent half an hour in a traffic jam and I thought I'd go insane, to think people do it every day to go back from work etc... I just think that in an ideal world the public transport would be so good that cars would be mostly unnecessary... Ok with a train you have a schedule but you have no pressure, no responsiblities, you can enjoy the journey and even use it to do something else, reading talking on the phone eating listening to music...

[Virgil]

What I don't get, Virgy, is why then waste of energy is ok. I am also not convinced that global warming is man's product, or if it is it's just partially, but I don't see why then it's ok to abuse of electricity. When some people don't even have it anyway, no matter how China and India have developed.

Like I said Koa, I'm cheap. I don't waste electricity and other resources if I don't have to. What I'm objecting is this forced acesticism for a cause (global warming) that isn't even real.

This is the funniest joke I've heard in a while. In Northern Italy, namely in the Po plain (pianura padana) area, where I'm from, that's pretty much what summer is like. Well over 35 and THAT humidity is a bit of an extreme day, although possible, but give me 33-34 and 70-80% humidity, and that could be a random day between June and August. You sit without moving at 10pm in the dark, and you sweat. It doesn't cool off too much at night, which is why my dad got air conditioning, to be able to sleep. In the infamous summer of 2003, which did cause a rise in deaths especially in France if I'm not wrong, from June to end of August in my city there were like 5 days under 30 degrees. That was awful...
And I don't think I should remind you that the South of Italy can get to 35-40 pretty easily, even though it's not so humid and for us Northeners can feel like paradise because of that and of the breeze...

I didn't know it got that hot and humid in Italy. I'm familiar with Rome, Tuscany, and Naples regions, and they are not as oppresive as New York City. Not sure what the temperatures get to, but the humidity is very comfortable. Yes I remember about those people in France dying. How come then Italians don't use air conditioning as much as Americans?

I was surprised when I learnt that New York has such summers, as you also have super cold winters... but well using just my ignorant judgement, I can try and suppose that summer in NY is shorter than it is in Italy?

Not sure about the last question, but we get more extreme temperatures than Italy. It depends on the wind flow. We get the cold Canadian artic winds in the winter and the hot humid Caribbean winds in the summer. Spring and Fall are fairly nice.

Oh most definitely, I've never seen anyone so mad about cars like Italians - but I've never been to the US. Using public transport is just not cool - and I'm not saying for the occasional trip but for daily routines like going to work. I don't know how people do it, last time I've been there I spent half an hour in a traffic jam and I thought I'd go insane, to think people do it every day to go back from work etc... I just think that in an ideal world the public transport would be so good that cars would be mostly unnecessary... Ok with a train you have a schedule but you have no pressure, no responsiblities, you can enjoy the journey and even use it to do something else, reading talking on the phone eating listening to music...

Yeah, I'm not sure who loves their cars more, Americans or Italians. It's pretty close. What about me that's Italian-American?

[ben.!]

I took part in Earth Hour!

I unplugged my laptop from a power source, switched off all the lights and switches in my powerboard. I worked on my laptop that ran on battery in pitch darkness! :P

[Virgil]

I took part in Earth Hour!

I unplugged my laptop from a power source, switched off all the lights and switches in my powerboard. I worked on my laptop that ran on battery in pitch darkness! :P

Well, you have to recharge that battery. What exacty did you accomplish?

[Koa]

YOU are cheap but a lot of morons aren't, see the rant about the idiots I live with. And yeah lol unplugging the laptop is not a major change I suppose...

I didn't know it got that hot and humid in Italy. I'm familiar with Rome, Tuscany, and Naples regions, and they are not as oppresive as New York City. Not sure what the temperatures get to, but the humidity is very comfortable. Yes I remember about those people in France dying. How come then Italians don't use air conditioning as much as Americans?

How come... less developed country maybe? Every technological device that is out in the US, we get it 2-3 years later. And I suppose they're more expensive so no one felt air cond was necessary until a couple of years ago. Plus, our power network (?) is very weak so this use (and abuse) of air cond has caused problems in these past years when the use has increased quickly but the power supply is the same. There have been days when power was cut for one hour in each area of the city (a different area each hour I mean) to prevent sudden black-outs - this was on weekdays when factories where working so consuming energy etc. Infrastructure is not that perfect in Italy, sure it's not as bad as in poor countries, but pretty bad for one of the most developed countries.

Florence is in a valley so it's supposed to be terribly hot, but I've been there only once in summer so I don't know. Rome I'm told is sooo hot but not humid as far as I know. Southern than that I've only been to the seaside which is of course less oppressive even when hot. I have a friend from Madrid, Spain, where they have 40-45 degrees in summer but it's dry, and she said she was feeling much worse in our city because of the humidity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley#Climate

Yeah, I'm not sure who loves their cars more, Americans or Italians. It's pretty close. What about me that's Italian-American?

[Madhuri]

I agree with what Virgil says.

Oh get off your socialism. The standard of living is improving and spreading across the population, everyone. Ask the people of India what they would prefer.

Yes, exactly.

No giving them my money without changing their economy just makes us both poor. Look how much money has been thrown down a rat hole in Africa. They are quite capable of earning their own living and having the self respect of not taking charity. Your paternalism is stunning.

I agree on this, and

Lote, you donation is very noble. But, it will have no effect, it will make people only dependent or complacent. You are an educated person, and if at all you wanted to help you could have made them aware of the numerous policies, facilities and subsidies that the government provides to the farmers. The government does a LOT for the farmers. That will eventually help them. I am not saying that is all, we definitely need improvement, infrastructure development, so many farmers are still dependent on rain water harvesting, traditional ways of cultivation. The key is awareness. There is a need for education, awarness, of all that they can do. The govt provides them loans and subsidies in buying seeds, tractors and other means of modern cultivation. Do you know that in the recent budget the govt. has waived off $600 million loan that the farmers had taken? Is that not a burden less for the farmers? Although, this will be compensated by the other sections of the society.

From your posts, I get this feeling, I may be wrong though, that most of the Indians are starved skeletons looking for charity always. We are not! I agree to what Virgil says in his post in bold above.

No are you for real? Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that. They are free to choose whatever their free wills desire. If they want frozen meals they don't need to get permission from the Raj of superiror morality.

Yes.

I guess you've been reading Candide. It is not a shock to look at the demographics of population and see that from the beginning of the 19th century when industrialization first came that people have been racing away from farming. Farming is one of the hardest lives you can possibly lead, and you have no guarentee that you'll be able to eat that year. You want to condemn people to a farming life? I bet you don't even garden. I garden, but if I had to live off the garden I would be in real trouble. In fact this proves you are monk. Live by candle light, pray to mother earth, wait for the apocalypse, live off your garden, and the extent of your travels is the next monestary.

There is no harm in being a farmer, but having a city life gives a person quick money in short time, which in farming is not possible.

I don't know how many times I've read in the paper how the population decrease in Europe is a major problem. You Europeans are a dying breed because you don't populate. Population increase is not a problem. We continually increase the efficiency of food production. We throw away more food in the US than is imaginable. Population decrease is a major problem.

Population increase is a problem as well, as it definitely puts a strain on the available resources.

In a country like India there are sufficient resources, but the capability to make maximum use of those resources is still lacking.

That is why they are poor! Your outlook is so stunningly bizzare!

What are you saying?

No. Poverty is caused by lack of resources. Not enough rersources for everyone.

Indians have the same air and water and other resources as any other developed nation. The only thing that is lacking is the optimal use of the resources. Which the developed nations have mastered and the developing nations are still acquiring the capability.


All the talk of poverty, population etc. is so unrelated to global warming. Are you saying that Sundarbans are in water because there is global warming and because people are poor?

Well, I do not get the connection between global warming, poverty and population.

[Virgil]

For the record, Maddie, some of those qotes above were from Lote and some were from me. They are kind of intertwined and a reader will have to go back to unravel it to see who said what.

Well, I do not get the connection between global warming, poverty and population.

Lote actually has said goodbye to the forum in another thread. So he may not be able to answer. If you'll allow me to put the connections together. Population increase, Lote and the environmentalists claim, causes more use of resources, such as carbon burning products, that lead to global warming. But I claim by restricting people's use of carbon burning fuels (and the generation of electrical pwer requires such fuels) is in effect keeping poorer nations from modernizing and therefore keeping them poor.

[ben.!]

Well, you have to recharge that battery. What exacty did you accomplish?

I wasn't using wall-power. Thus, not using up electricity caused by fossil fuels, and not ruining the planet.

I accomplished a successful Earth Hour.

[TheFifthElement]

I wasn't using wall-power. Thus, not using up electricity caused by fossil fuels, and not ruining the planet.

I accomplished a successful Earth Hour.

Ben, I think you've neatly summed up the flaw of Earth Hour, for an hour you ran your laptop on battery, and then, when the hour was up, you plugged it back in again and recharged it, with an hours worth of fossil fuelled energy. Earth Hour glosses over a much bigger subject, and is the kind of 'stunt' (as Petrarch termed it) that stops people from taking environmental issues seriously.

[Virgil]

I wasn't using wall-power. Thus, not using up electricity caused by fossil fuels, and not ruining the planet.

I accomplished a successful Earth Hour.

Oh Ben, that was successful.

[ben.!]

Oh Ben, that was successful.

Haha! I detect sarcasm in your statement, Virgil!

Ben, I think you've neatly summed up the flaw of Earth Hour, for an hour you ran your laptop on battery, and then, when the hour was up, you plugged it back in again and recharged it, with an hours worth of fossil fuelled energy. Earth Hour glosses over a much bigger subject, and is the kind of 'stunt' (as Petrarch termed it) that stops people from taking environmental issues seriously.

TheFifthElement, I did have to recharge my laptop, otherwise it would run out of batteries and I wouldn't be on here no more. Fossil Fuels, at least until we change primary power sources to make electricity, MUST be burnt at some stage to retain technology and power.

I wish it didn't have to be that way but it is...

I applaud you for your flaw-picking skills however!

[Niamh]

Ha!!! Look at the following:

U.N. Forecasters: Global Temperatures to Decrease
Friday, April 04, 2008

Average global temperatures in 2008 are forecast to be lower than in previous years, thanks to the cooling effect of the ocean current in the Pacific, U.N. meteorologists say.

The World Meteorological Organisation's secretary-general, Michel Jarraud, said it was likely that La Nina, an abnormal cooling of sea surface temperatures in the Pacific Ocean, would continue into the summer.

If the forecast holds true, global temperatures will not have risen since 1998, prompting some to question climate change theory.

You can read the rest here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...naturalscience

Well geologists and meteorologists always say it gets warmer before it gets colder, and they have been predicting another ice age for a good while. (only they think it will happen a lot quicker than the last one and wont last as long.

[Virgil]

Well geologists and meteorologists always say it gets warmer before it gets colder, and they have been predicting another ice age for a good while. (only they think it will happen a lot quicker than the last one and wont last as long.

So why are we worried about global warming if it's only going to go to an ice age? The whole thing is a farce.

[papayahed]

This is a pretty good site

As is this one