D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse, I don't think we need to say a thing more. We simply disagree and that's all there is to it. It really does not matter at all. Just petty to keep talking about it, don't you think? Let's go onto more interesting topics in the story.

Agreed

Oh, that is so great! DM, I wish I could attend you class. Now I am truly jealous; I want to see that video...do you know what it was called? Yes, Frieda was a huge part of Lawrence's life and I think, a definite influence on his writing, past a certain time. Will you be reading some Lawrence works - book, stories, etc? You must keep me informed as you go along. I hope this class does not make you more Lawrence informed than me ...just kidding with you. You might be 'setting me straight', on things I post about his background/concepts/life.

I fear I do not recall what it was called but I think it was something that was recorded off of TV. But it says on the syllabals, next class we will be watching more about Lawrence so I will have to pay attention and let you know if it is interesting.

We are doing Sons and Lovers, with just my luck, I already read that one haha. It was interesting watching the video though, how much the book paralled with his own life, and after acutaly watching more background information on him, you can see more of how he incoperatres his life into his stories and characters.

Hehe, I do not think you have to fear, I think you shall still remain the expert.

Always, the mention of eyes with Lawrence. It is interesting, isn't it? Yes, and 'grey' would definitely be the color Lawrence would view for the Bristish Isles and also anywhere cold in the North. Remember the 'greyness' and 'whiteness' in "The Man Who Loved Islands"....I am sure eyes were also mentioned in that story, with color significance.

I have also noticed how much flowers and gardens seem to be incorperated and play a role within his stories.

[Janine]

Agreed

Good! We agree on something then - not agreeing.


I fear I do not recall what it was called but I think it was something that was recorded off of TV. But it says on the syllabals, next class we will be watching more about Lawrence so I will have to pay attention and let you know if it is interesting.

One film I have seen and actually own, is "Coming Through", but that only explored his life during the time shortly before he meet Frieda. Mostly, it highlights his life connected to his poetry. I really like the film and it was a TV production, but some think it is boring. I don't, because anything to do with Lawrence's life I find fascinating; besides one of my favorite actors plays the young Bert Lawrence. The other film I own, is the newer adaptation of "Sons and Lovers"...it follows the story pretty closely, but it does deviate some and they even added somethings (never know why they do that). I like the characterizations though. They are quite well done and well acted.

We are doing Sons and Lovers, with just my luck, I already read that one haha. It was interesting watching the video though, how much the book paralled with his own life, and after acutaly watching more background information on him, you can see more of how he incoperatres his life into his stories and characters.

The book is still good for a second reading and you will appreciate it so much more, when you know more of the biographical facts...it certainly does run parallel to Lawrence's real life; the story is so personal. I actually, never read the book, not until I did read a few biographies first. I just couldn't get into it, when I was younger and then, reading is not long ago, I just loved it.

Hehe, I do not think you have to fear, I think you shall still remain the expert.

Oh, Dark Muse, I am far from the 'expert'. I have just read much on Lawrence and retained some of it. I have to look so many facts up. At least, I do own and have assess to additional books now, to do so.

I have also noticed how much flowers and gardens seem to be incorperated and play a role within his stories.

Zillions! Someone once did a study of one of his books and counted just how many species were mentioned - it was thousands. Lawrence spend some time in school studying and loving botony. He made it is business to learn so much about it independently, too. He was quite passionate about flowers and plants, and naturer. In these ways he reflected the influence of Thomas Hardy's work in his early work - like "The White Peacock" which is very pastoral in tone. That may be the one the plant count was done on. Every page was had mention of some plant or more. I personally loved the book, although it is a very young work.

[Dark Muse]

One film I have seen and actually own, is "Coming Through", but that only explored his life during the time shortly before he meet Frieda. Mostly, it highlights his life connected to his poetry. I really like the film and it was a TV production, but some think it is boring. I don't, because anything to do with Lawrence's life I find fascinating; besides one of my favorite actors plays the young Bert Lawrence. The other film I own, is the newer adaptation of "Sons and Lovers"...it follows the story pretty closely, but it does deviate some and they even added somethings (never know why they do that). I like the characterizations though. They are quite well done and well acted.

Yes I was quite annoyed when they did that with the movie Pride and Prejudice, it was a good movie, but they changed some of the Dialogue and deviated from the book, in which they had Elizabeth in the movie say things, which Darcy said in the book

The book is still good for a second reading and you will appreciate it so much more, when you know more of the biographical facts...it certainly does run parallel to Lawrence's real life; the story is so personal. I actually, never read the book, not until I did read a few biographies first. I just couldn't get into it, when I was younger and then, reading is not long ago, I just loved it.

One thing kind of interesting, which I noticed now that I am reading Sons and Lovers again, while we are doing this story, is certain similarities within this story to some of the things within the book. It is kind of an interesting comparison reading the two together.

As there was one part within the book in which, it was William's fiance I think, was said to be wearing a dress blue like a jay

Oh, Dark Muse, I am far from the 'expert'. I have just read much on Lawrence and retained some of it. I have to look so many facts up. At least, I do own and have assess to additional books now, to do so.

Hehe well you are the expert on this forum

I was re-reading over the story again, and there were a few passages I wanted to address.

However they were awfully kind. He was the soul of generosity, and held her in real tender esteem, no matter how many gallant affairs she had. Her gallant affairs were part of her modern necessity. "After all, I've got to live. I can't turn into a pillar of salt in five minutes just because you and I can't live together! It takes years for a woman like me to turn into a pillar of salt. At least I hope so!

As we mentioned early the biblical reference to loaves and fishes, I really liked the reference here to the story of Job, as well as finding it very ironic, considering within the story, Job's wife is turned into a pillar of salt because she looks back, while in this story, the woman, is always "turning back" to her husband.

"Quite" he replied. "Quite! By all means put them in pickle, make pickled cucumbers of them, before you crystallize out. That is my advise"

He was like that: so awfully clever and enigmatic. She could more or less fathom the idea of the pickled cucumbers, but the "crystallizing out" - what did that signify?

And did he mean that he himself had been well picked and that further immersion was for him unnecessary, would spoil his flavor? Was that what he meant? And herself, was she the brine and the vale of tears?

Honestly, the wit here quite looses me, I haven't a clue what they are talking about. I just scratch my head over these lines, so I thought perhaps someone more clever than I, could offer better insight on what I am missing. I have perhaps some vague notion, but I am not at all certain.

What was to be done? Matters, instead of improving had grown worse. The little secretary had brought her mother and sister into the establishment. The mother was a sort of cook-housekeeper, the sister was as sort of upper maid-she did the fine laundry, and looked after "his" clothes, and valeted him beautifully. It was really an excellent arrangement. The old mother was a splendid and plain cook, the sister was all that could be desired as a valet de chambre, a fine laundress, an upper parlor-maid, and table-waiter. And all economical to a degree. They knew his affairs by heart. His secretary flew to town when a creditor become dangerous, and she always smoothed over the finical crisis.

Though it is made quite clear and stressed that the husband does not have any real intimacy, with the secretary, and as far as we know, no relationship with any of the other women in the house, this scene to me seemed very haremesque in a way. Patricianly with the already discussed imagery of him, mostly remaining stationary, lounging, almost like a sultan, in his palace. That is what I think of in these line.

The knight returning from the Crusades didn't create a greeter stir. She felt like Queen Elizabeth at Kenilworth, a sovereign paying a visit to her faithful subjects. But perhaps there lurked always this hair in her soup! Won't they be glad to be rid of me again!

I loved these lines. Particularly the imagery of the knight, sense the word "gallant" is often used in discretion of her, and such is a word that is often associated with knights as well. And the idea that she feels like the Queen whom never can completely trust her servants in spite of their loyal service to her. She always remains in doubt of herself.

[Quark]

Honestly, the wit here quite looses me, I haven't a clue what they are talking about. I just scratch my head over these lines, so I thought perhaps someone more clever than I, could offer better insight on what I am missing. I have perhaps some vague notion, but I am not at all certain.

Some of these exchanges lost me too. Pickles and crystals? Where is he going with this exactly? To some extent it's supposed to be sort of mysterious. She actually talks about that elusiveness as part of his charm. Clearly, though, it's also confusing. I mean what is a pickle crystal?

I loved these lines. Particularly the imagery of the knight, sense the word "gallant" is often used in discretion of her, and such is a word that is often associated with knights as well. And the idea that she feels like the Queen whom never can completely trust her servants in spite of their loyal service to her. She always remains in doubt of herself.

She seems sure of herself. She's just doubtful of the servants. They put on elaborate shows care and concern for her, but she knows that its all just ceremony.

[islandclimber]

As we mentioned early the biblical reference to loaves and fishes, I really liked the reference here to the story of Job, as well as finding it very ironic, considering within the story, Job's wife is turned into a pillar of salt because she looks back, while in this story, the woman, is always "turning back" to her husband.



Honestly, the wit here quite looses me, I haven't a clue what they are talking about. I just scratch my head over these lines, so I thought perhaps someone more clever than I, could offer better insight on what I am missing. I have perhaps some vague notion, but I am not at all certain.
.

Quark and DarkMuse .. I agree with you the lines are a bit confusing... Which is I think what Lawrence is going for in having her mention how the elusiveness is part of his charm...

I think though, that he is telling her to preserve these affairs as memories (hence the pickling process), because eventually she will turn into that pillar of salt, that she mentions above (the crystallizing out...)... or that is what I took from it... preserve these memories, because eventually you will no loger be able to have the affairs, and it will only be the memories that last...

I quite enjoy the biblical references too...

Yes, I agree Quark with your last point as well.. she is sure of herself, she is just uncertain and doubtful of the servants in relation to herself.. she knows like you say that the elaborate show is just for ceremony and their private viewpoints must be different... or so she supposes..

[Dark Muse]

Yes, I agree Quark with your last point as well.. she is sure of herself, she is just uncertain and doubtful of the servants in relation to herself.. she knows like you say that the elaborate show is just for ceremony and their private viewpoints must be different... or so she supposes..

Overall I do not think she is that sure of herself, as she is constantly comparing herself to the secretary, and I think perhaps part of her ironic cynicism is a way of her making fun of herself, because I think in some ways she feels she fails compared to the secretory who can offer her husband something she cannot.

I think perhaps this is way she so often refers to the woman as being "common" it is a way to put the secretary down to try and reassure herself.

[Janine]

Quark and DarkMuse .. I agree with you the lines are a bit confusing... Which is I think what Lawrence is going for in having her mention how the elusiveness is part of his charm...

I think I agree with this, but I do think, we can find a meaning in his words, if we look hard enough. I think this is close, islandclimber:

Quote by islandclimber

I think though, that he is telling her to preserve these affairs as memories (hence the pickling process), because eventually she will turn into that pillar of salt, that she mentions above (the crystallizing out...)... or that is what I took from it... preserve these memories, because eventually you will no loger be able to have the affairs, and it will only be the memories that last...

.....I quite enjoy the biblical references too...

Quote by islandclimber

Yes, I agree Quark with your last point as well.. she is sure of herself, she is just uncertain and doubtful of the servants in relation to herself.. she knows like you say that the elaborate show is just for ceremony and their private viewpoints must be different... or so she supposes..

Quote by Dark Muse

Overall I do not think she is that sure of herself, as she is constantly comparing herself to the secretary, and I think perhaps part of her ironic cynicism is a way of her making fun of herself, because I think in some ways she feels she fails compared to the secretory who can offer her husband something she cannot.

I think perhaps this is way she so often refers to the woman as being "common" it is a way to put the secretary down to try and reassure herself.

Here is where, I actually agree with both of you, and I don't see that you are in opposition against each other on these points, about the wife's surety and confidence. I feel the wife is sure of herself in some situations, true...but then in others, she alows her vulnerable side to come through. I think the first hint of this is, the annoying grain of irritation in her eye. This 'forshadows' what will follow, when she returns home. Afterall, she is only human and she does have flaws and weaknesses, as we all do. Ok, so to the servants she might appear to be very much her own lady and lord her confidence over them and they respond to it accordingly, she is the lady of the estate! But then then in a conversation with her husband, she is somewhat miffed as to just what he means, calling him enigmatic. When the element, being the third party, enters the picture this throws the wife way off kilter; I refer to the secretary (and even her family) First off, it is representative as a sort of triangle, even though the secetary is not sleeping with her husband, or anything of the nature; however there does exist a sort of 'intimacy' between them, that the wife cannot penetrate. Think of how the secretary writes down every word he says, and how this gives the wife the impression that the girl understands his deeper side, far better than the wife could ever begin to...that 'enigmatic' side. I think in this way, the wife does begin to feel inferior, to the secretary. She also feels inferior, in the fact, that the secretary can provide to her husband wtih undivided attention/focus, while the wife knows perfectly well, she is totally incapable of such devotion. 'Devotion' here is a big factor and the wife is not devoted to her husband. She moves and acts on equal terms with him, almost as a sparring partner and not a love partner. Their wills are often matched and this is a big theme very often Lawrence stories - the theme of the 'will' of one person, against the other. By being caddy and critical, towards the secretary, and her devotion to the husband, the wife is indirectly attacking her husband, not the secretary. The secretary's existence is quite insignificant except, to say she is also a woman and so the wills are matched and their is this element of jealous that probably would not exist if the secretary were a male. But the true foe of the wife, at this point, is the husband and she is fighting him, the only way she knows how, and that is indirectly, yet through a means where it will undermine his sensitivities. The secretary is a way to exert her will against him.

I want to review the lines about the crystalising out. I was miffed at first and curious about those lines, too and I wanted to work out exactly what they do mean or meant to Lawrence when he wrote them. It is highly unlikely they mean nothing and are just inserted into the story to be totally enigmatic.

However, they were awfully kind. He was the soul of generosity, and held her in real tender esteem, no matter how many gallant affairs she had. Her gallant affairs were part of her modern necessity.....

I don't know about all of you but here I began to question their marriage and realtionship. Ok, so what was meant by then being awfully kind and he the soul of generosity and tender esteem? I didn't know if this was true or just a facade of how they appeared to be in their relationship. It does seem one is true - that he was generous with her. I felt that when it came to her gallant affairs, Lawrence was saying that sort of rolling his eyes or dubiously or sarcasically. The next line seemed to rub it in even more so "Her gallant affairs were part of her modern necessity". It sounds more like the husband quoting what the wife would have said. I can even picture, Lawrence saying this about his wife, Frieda, and actually underneath it all not liking it at all but putting up with it...what else could he do? Frieda did her own thing always. Ok, let's go on.....

"After all, I've got to live. I can't turn into a pillar of salt in five minutes just because you and I can't live together! It takes years for a woman like me to turn into a pillar of salt. At least I hope so!"

This also sounds so much, like something Lawrence's own wife would say, sometime or other, in their marriage. The couple matched wills and wit often, much like this couple expressing themselves as these phrases are written. No doubt Frieda found Lawrence quite enigmatic, many times over, just as the wife does.

So above, in the quote, the wife is thinking she is going to be able to carry on in her current lifestyle for years, without giving out, and turning into 'a pillar of salt' - she brings up the idea, to begin with. That should tell you something.

"Quite!" he replied. "Quite! By all means put them in pickle, make pickled cucumbers of them, before you crystallise out. That's my advice."

Now, he returns that with a retort of his own and a clever one, one must admit. He picks right up on the idea and expands the bible symbolism. Ok, if one does put salt into water to make brine(pickle) you can pickle or preserve something before it crystallises.

He was like that: so awfully clever and enigmatic. She could more or less fathom the idea of the pickled cucumbers, but the 'crystallising out'--what did that signify?

Well, in the Bible, Lot's wife did look back after being forwarned and she turned to the pillar of salt. She looked back at the sinful city, right? I am not totally up on this story of late. I forget the details. So isn't turning into a pillar of salt the same as 'crystalizing out'? After that Lot's wife was quite 'done for'. So maybe the husband is warning her to not look back at her sins, or this will eventually happen to her. She will be extinquished.

And did he mean to suggest that he himself had been well pickled and that further immersion was for him unnecessary, would spoil his flavour? Was that what he meant? And herself, was she the brine and the vale of tears?

So now, the wife seems to be turning that idea around, in her own mind to mean her husband will be the one who is crystalized in the end or spoiled totally for her excesses and alternate lifestyle and for her his flavour would then be spoiled? Is that what she is saying or interpreting her husband as meaning? She seems to be redirecting the blame towards herself and her actions, by saying she might be 'the brine and the vale of tears' that brings about that result in her husband, not in herself. Is she thinking her actions will end up causing his demise? This last part is confusing to me and I am not sure what to make of it entirely. Any ideas, anyone?

You never knew how catty a man was being, when he was really clever and enigmatic, withal a bit whimsical. He was adorably whimsical, with a twist of his flexible, vain mouth, that had a long upper lip, so fraught with vanity! But then a handsome, clear-cut, histrionic young man like that, how could he help being vain? The women made him so.

These all seem to be characteristics that had attracted her and still apparently do. Interesting. This man is very complex and fascinating to her; quite obvious from this paragraph. The last line, and then the first, in the following paragraph seem to indicate to me a 'forshadowing' of the theme of the jealousy the wife seems to exhibit towards the secretary. The jealousy is not really for the secretary, who is actually no one to anyone, but of the man and his attention to the secretary. In my opinion the true battlefield exists only between the husband and the wife and the 'will' of each set against each other.

Ah, the women! How nice men would be if there were no other women!

I know I have not been here lately, but I have been busy. I hope what I said, makes some sort of sense, and adds to what has already been posted. Sorry about not posting yesterday. It got too late.

[Dark Muse]

You have made some good points, and I hope to be able to come back to it later and make a more detailed response to what you have said, but I am unsable to at this moment.

[Janine]

You have made some good points, and I hope to be able to come back to it later and make a more detailed response to what you have said, but I am unsable to at this moment.

Dark Muse, hope you are ok. Rest up and get better. I can wait. At least, today I resurfaced and made some bit of effort. I am also making headway with my emails, I owed my friends, from awhile ago. Finally, think I am catching up on everything. I been feeling unstable myself lately. Relax tonight; it is the weekend.

We all have tons of time with this story - it is only the 4th of the month and look how far we already got. Good group here!

[Dark Muse]

Thank you, hopefully tomorrow, I will be able to come back to this and give your post closer examination, for now I shall shortly be off to bed

[Janine]

Thank you, hopefully tomorrow, I will be able to come back to this and give your post closer examination, for now I shall shortly be off to bed

I was concerned about you. Hope you are feeling better. I am off to bed, also
...."sleep that knits up the raveled sleeve of care" Macbeth...
It is quite late here again; too late really. I should be in bed by now, even if just to read.
Night, Dark Muse!

[Virgil]

You have made some good points, and I hope to be able to come back to it later and make a more detailed response to what you have said, but I am unsable to at this moment.

I'm not following the conversation, but I did quickly catch this. You mispelled a keyword there Muse, "unsable". Now you could have meant either "unstable" or "unable." Either way I hope you're ok.

[Dark Muse]

Hehe yes I realized that, it was quite late at the time and I was not thinking clearly. I have been sick

[Virgil]

OK, I read the story once, and before I comment I will read through the posts and reread the story. Interesting story, though I don't know if I would consider this a great one. Perhaps I'll be surprised on reread.

[Quark]

OK, I read the story once, and before I comment I will read through the posts and reread the story. Interesting story, though I don't know if I would consider this a great one. Perhaps I'll be surprised on reread.

Well it's not overly sublime, but it is quite clever. I'm not sure where I'd put it on my list of favorite Lawrence stories--somewhere in the middle, I think. The discussion of the story has sure been active. I struggle to keep up. Janine wrote a post on the last page that I had scroll down for thirty seconds just to get the bottom of it. Tonight I'll make an effort in earnest (no half effort) to write a comprehensive reply that will blow everyone away.