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View Poll Results: should incest be legal?

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  • yes (between consenting adults)

    23 24.73%
  • yes, but only if they get sterilized

    4 4.30%
  • no!

    58 62.37%
  • not sure

    8 8.60%
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Thread: should incest between brothers and sisters be legal?

  1. #121
    Internal nebulae TheFifthElement's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweets America View Post
    I am not sure that tolerance is a form of morality. It could really be, and that's interesting. I guess that means I am ok with some forms of morality and not with some others? However, I always try to tolerate the forms of morality that I do not share as long as they are not imposed on me.
    But morality is imposed on you whether you like it or not. Is killing moral or immoral, is rape moral or immoral, is stealing moral or immoral? Society and the law has taken a view on this and this view is imposed on you, in some cases to the point where the 'societal' moral view is almost impossible to distinguish from your personal choice.

    I suppose what I am getting at is that there's no point blaming morality, if you blame morality then you may as well blame arms and legs. Perhaps the problem with morality is that it is generally couched in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' whereas perhaps it would be better to say 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' based on the common consensus. In society laws are made based on the common consensus of what that society deems to be acceptable and unacceptable, but this will differ from society to society, so we don't conduct ritual sacrifice in my culture but it has been acceptable in the past, and may be acceptable in other societies. That doesn't make it immoral, just a different kind of morality which does not concord with my morality or the morality of the society in which I live. In living in a society one must accept that there will be aspects of the law with which we agree, and those with which we do not agree, and if the law is successful then it will, in most areas, create an environment which the vast majority find to be 'acceptable' and yet protects the ongoing survival of the human population. Or perhaps I am just too much of a socialist, but it seems to make sense to me this way.

    I'm pretty uncomfortable, on the whole, with this concept of 'tolerance'. True tolerance would mean having no opinion on any subject because a truly tolerant person would 'tolerate' all sides of the argument. I'm not entirely sure that tolerance really exists, or if it is just a convenient way of saying 'do what you want so long as it doesn't affect me', which I'd say is more ambivalence than tolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetsAmerica
    Now about the second part of what you said, I agree very much. But I guess I don't want to care about what ifs right now. Which might be irresponsible of me. But I'm not sure I am in a responsible mood.
    well, at least you're honest Sweets! But really, forget about responsibility and irresponsibility. Do you want to make your moral choices without having all the available facts, or more importantly (based on your previous statements) without fully consideration of whether acting in a certain manner will, or will not, cause harm?

    I guess the difficulty with this subject, as with many subjects, is making an informed choice. Lots of opinions, but not many facts.
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  2. #122
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Wow, this is the hot topic of the day, eh? I went online to investigate, and see if there was any solid information, since I am not an anthropologist or a doctor, or qualified individual to profess to know anything truthful about this subject.

    So to start with here is something I found in Wikipedia; I thought it was interesting and might throw some light on the whole debate.

    A social response to the costs of incest
    One theory is that the observance of the taboo would lower the incidence of congenital birth defects caused by inbreeding. A society that had noticed this might tend to form an incest taboo.

    Anthropologists reject this explanation for two reasons. First, inbreeding does not directly lead to congenital birth defects per se; it leads to an increase in the frequency of homozygotes. A homozygote encoding a congenital birth defect will produce children with birth defects, but homozygotes that do not encode for congenital birth defects will decrease the number of carriers in a population.

    One might complain that a society would have to have a fairly advanced understanding of genetics to recognise this potential "benefit" of incest, whereas the increased prevalence of birth defects is relatively easy to spot.

    Second, anthropologists have pointed out that in the Trobriand case a man and the daughter of his father's sister, and a man and the daughter of his mother's sister, are equally distant genetically. In that particular case, the prohibition against relations is not based on or motivated by concerns over biological closeness.

    Sociologist Ian Robertson gives three main social reasons why incest taboo exist as a cultural universals. The first is that early human beings-living primarily in small kinship groups of hunters and gatherers- needed to protect themselves by forming alliances with other groups. By forcing their children to marry into families outside their own, each group widened its social links and provided itself with allies in time of famine or other hazards. These groups faced the alternatives of marrying out or dying. Marriage in most traditional societies is a practical alliance between groups, not a love match between individuals. That is why marriages are arranged by the parents, often when their offspring are still children and sometimes even before they are born. The second reason for the incest taboo is that the family itself could not function without it, for the statuses of family members would be utterly and hopelessly confused. As Kingsley Davis points out: " The incestuous child of a father-daughter union would be a brother of his own mother, i.e. the son of his own sister; a stepson of his own grandmother; possibly a brother of his won uncle; and certainly a grandson of his own father." The third reason is that without an incest taboo, sexual rivalry among family members would disrupt the normal roles and attitudes of the various relatives. the father, for example, might experience role conflict as both the disciplinarian and the lover of his daughter; the mother might be jealous of both; and the child, of course, would be caught in the middle. Faced with constant conflict and tension, the family institution might simply disintegrate. The incest taboo has developed over time because it is vital to the survival of the family and thus of society itself. Of course, neither traditional nor modern societies consciously appreciate the reasons for the taboo. They and we simply accept it as natural and moral.
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  3. #123
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    In its utmost simplicity, incest simply betrays all that the concept of 'family' supposedly is. Even ignoring the whole genetic defect issue, there's confused familial relations to consider (e.g. are you my sister or my mother?), as well as the whole competition issue. If we're just focusing on siblings, what of the family with many siblings? I just can't imagine sexual rivalry actually happening in the home of all places.

    I can't remember the source, but I recall somewhere hearing/reading how all young girls want to marry their father. It was probably a TV show or something silly like that, so I'm not pushing it as accurate, but that's one kind of love and romance is another. It'd be interesting to find out whether those who pursue incestuous relationships ever had any other? Maybe it's because they were limited to familial love alone that they thought it the only kind.

    I apologise if I'm merely repeating everyone else, hah.
    Last edited by cral; 03-26-2008 at 03:54 PM.

  4. #124
    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweets America View Post
    Ah, we don't like selfishness.
    There you have it. Rest is mere details in justificaitons of selfishness ;-)

    And I won't comment on how to become truly 'human' because I don't have the same definition of 'human' as you have.
    Perhaps when you are ready let go of selfishness...you shall know it ;-)
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFifthElement View Post
    But morality is imposed on you whether you like it or not. Is killing moral or immoral, is rape moral or immoral, is stealing moral or immoral? Society and the law has taken a view on this and this view is imposed on you, in some cases to the point where the 'societal' moral view is almost impossible to distinguish from your personal choice.
    There is a difference between killing someone and sleeping with my brother. Because in killing someone you easily see how I harm someone. The same goes for stealing. Also, killing is not always immoral. If someone did something very wrong to someone I love, I would be tempted to kill the person in question.

    I suppose what I am getting at is that there's no point blaming morality, if you blame morality then you may as well blame arms and legs. Perhaps the problem with morality is that it is generally couched in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' whereas perhaps it would be better to say 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' based on the common consensus. In society laws are made based on the common consensus of what that society deems to be acceptable and unacceptable, but this will differ from society to society, so we don't conduct ritual sacrifice in my culture but it has been acceptable in the past, and may be acceptable in other societies. That doesn't make it immoral, just a different kind of morality which does not concord with my morality or the morality of the society in which I live. In living in a society one must accept that there will be aspects of the law with which we agree, and those with which we do not agree, and if the law is successful then it will, in most areas, create an environment which the vast majority find to be 'acceptable' and yet protects the ongoing survival of the human population. Or perhaps I am just too much of a socialist, but it seems to make sense to me this way.
    I think the difference between you and me is that you think in terms of society whereas I think in terms of individuals. To tell you the truth, I'm damn sick of being part of this whole. I want people to leave me alone, I want to go away. I've always wanted that but sometimes I want it more. However, I do think that what you are saying here is accurate, I mean yes, when you are part of a society it's better to accept the rules. But there is this part of me which hates it very much and this part has waken up for several weeks. I don't know, sometimes I just think life as humans live it is a big big joke. That's a waste.

    I'm pretty uncomfortable, on the whole, with this concept of 'tolerance'. True tolerance would mean having no opinion on any subject because a truly tolerant person would 'tolerate' all sides of the argument. I'm not entirely sure that tolerance really exists, or if it is just a convenient way of saying 'do what you want so long as it doesn't affect me', which I'd say is more ambivalence than tolerance.
    Oh, but this is exactly what I try to do. This is an ideal for me, not to enclose myself into any opinion and to tolerate everything. However I might sound different lately, even judgemental as you pointed out, because I'm having a feeling which makes me want to tell the whole planet to eff off.

    well, at least you're honest Sweets! But really, forget about responsibility and irresponsibility. Do you want to make your moral choices without having all the available facts, or more importantly (based on your previous statements) without fully consideration of whether acting in a certain manner will, or will not, cause harm?
    Huh...Yeah. And I don't want to make 'moral' choices, I just want to make my choices. I think I'm under the influence of the books I'm currently reading. Makes me discover new things, makes me want to detach myself from the person I've always tried to be, this ideal... makes me want to go towards another kind of ideal. I need to. I want freedom, dreams, poetry on top of a mountain while watching the moon. So...do not worry if I sound inconsistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lote-Tree View Post
    Perhaps when you are ready let go of selfishness...you shall know it ;-)
    I don't want to. I don't want to be human.

    Quote Originally Posted by cral View Post
    In its utmost simplicity, incest simply betrays all that the concept of 'family' supposedly is.
    The problem in this sentence is supposedly is. It's all blocked on one concept, one idea.

    I can't remember the source, but I recall somewhere hearing/reading how all young girls want to marry their father.
    That's the Oedipus complex, and that's not in a TV show, that's in Sigmund Freud.

  6. #126
    Suzerain of Cost&Caution SleepyWitch's Avatar
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    I don't like the concept of "society". it's an abstract term. do judges or the legislative take polls about what is acceptable to a majority? NO. I'd feel better represented by them if they actually took polls on important issues and then put into practice what a majority of people have voted for. But it's just assumed that they know what "society" wants or prefers.
    Plus, noone can choose to be part of "society", you get born into it and arguments along the lines of "If you don't like this country, go somewhere else" are nonsense, in my opinion. Of course, you can go to another country, but this country will have its own "society". Plus, ppl might like to stay in the place where they were born because their family live there or because they like the landscape or the weather or the food or whatever and they have a right to stay there, but that does not mean that they were given any choice to be born in this place or that they owe anything to the "society" they find themselves in.

    edit to add: I've just thought of something: some of you have mentioned that if incest btw siblings was legal, incest btw parents and (grown up) children would have to be legal, too. well... let's say there's a father/mother who has sex with their (grown up) child. provided they are still married to the mother/father at that time, this would be adultery! While adultery is not illegal in many countries, it is grounds for divorce there. So if judges/legislators or any defenders of moral wanted to make sure this doesn't happen they could still kinda stress that it is adultery and can result in divorce and is therefore immoral. Even if they couldn't really do anything about incest btw. parents/adult children if incest between siblings were allowed, there'd still be the issue of adultery to prevent ppl from parent/child thingies?
    Last edited by SleepyWitch; 03-26-2008 at 04:25 PM.

  7. #127
    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweets America View Post
    I don't want to. I don't want to be human.
    Then why engage here in this debate?

    It's pointless isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by SleepyWitch View Post
    I don't like the concept of "society".
    Human's beings are social animals whether you like it or not ;-)
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  8. #128
    Suzerain of Cost&Caution SleepyWitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lote-Tree View Post
    Human's beings are social animals whether you like it or not ;-)
    I do not deny that human beings are social beings, but social can mean two things: 1. prone to live together with others, cooperate with them etc, 2. relating to "society".
    I'm not saying we should be totally antisocial and live on our own and only for ourselves. I do not mind communities (groups where everyone knows every one else). but society is not a community, it's an abstract concept. Who do we mean when we talk about "society"?

  9. #129
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    I don't think that is right not just because I was taught that was wron, but just because it seems right. Your suppose to fall in love with someone like that outside of your family!
    melissa~dawn

  10. #130
    Something's gotta give PrinceMyshkin's Avatar
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    There is all the difference in the world to me between

    1) It is wrong, profoundly wrong, disgusting, genetically dangerous and morally at odds with how families ought to be. I would NEVER consider doing it; and

    2) I don't want others to be allowed to do it.

  11. #131
    veni vidi vixi Bakiryu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretty_princess View Post
    I don't think that is right not just because I was taught that was wron, but just because it seems right. Your suppose to fall in love with someone like that outside of your family!
    ...why?
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin View Post
    There is all the difference in the world to me between

    1) It is wrong, profoundly wrong, disgusting, genetically dangerous and morally at odds with how families ought to be. I would NEVER consider doing it; and

    2) I don't want others to be allowed to do it.
    Yes I agree.

    Lote
    Then why engage here in this debate?

    It's pointless isn't it?
    I don't see what this has to do with what I said.

  13. #133
    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin View Post
    There is all the difference in the world to me between

    1) It is wrong, profoundly wrong, disgusting, genetically dangerous and morally at odds with how families ought to be. I would NEVER consider doing it; and

    2) I don't want others to be allowed to do it.
    You don't have to find something disgusting to say it is wrong!

    Wrongness can exist without any disgust attached to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweets America View Post
    I don't see what this has to do with what I said.
    If don't want to be human then human predicaments should not concern you.

    Your position is like fish debating whether they need bicycles ;-)
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lote-Tree View Post
    If don't want to be human then human predicaments should not concern you.

    Your position is like fish debating whether they need bicycles ;-)
    Ah sure.....
    You don't understand that my problem and questionning about the human species is actually what makes me think and talk about it. No, that thought has not reached your brains yet, apparently. Anyway, let's go back to the subject, if you please.

  15. #135
    The Word is Serendipitous Lote-Tree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweets America View Post
    No, that thought has not reached your brains yet, apparently.
    No yet I am quite thick lassie ;-)

    I just take "I don't want to be human as I don't want to be human"...

    My apologies for being simplistic ;-)
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