Chekhov Short Story Thread

[Quark]

I hope everyone had a good weekend. I was out at my parents house, and unfortunately I didn't get a chance to post.

What? Quark,where did you get the 'schwa' part? Are you Russian? I don't detect that in the narration at all.

I thought the o sound my be pronounced like a schwa, but apparently not. At least I was close. His name is only slightly easier to read than Raskilnokov's friend in Crime and Punishment, Razhusmin or Razsuhmin or something.

All the ones you mention interest me, but unfortunately I read "Sleepy', in my book called 'Sleephead', last night and I found that I really did not like that one, for personal reasons. I am soon to have a grandchild, so that one rather disturbed me and especially before going to sleep.

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to disturb you out of your sleep. The end is quite jarring, but it's supposed to be surprising. We talked about exaggerating for effect in the last story. That's what's going on here. "Sleepy" is about mistaken associations, and Chekhov makes the last mistake so terrible to heighten the feeling. Even if the ending disturbed you, I still think you have to admit that the story is at least well done.

Another thing, I noticed right away about Chekhov's form or writing, is he writes in the present moment. He says things such as 'he starts out walking to the station' (that's not an exact quote). He seems to always write in the present tense, or most of the time, it seems he does so. I think sometimes he does shift back to past-tense. I will check texts, to see if that is true.

That's a good observation. Chekhov presents his stories as moments taken out of life, and he often leaves the past and future to the speculation of the reader.

Podtyagon could be in the wrong, but I don't think seriously he is. It is merely his job to collect the tickets and he is doing that. When others chime in the whole ordeal is blown up and he is the one they see as the perpetrator. I would think that Chekhov wants us to sympathise with him when this happens, why would he not? The story is basically about P. and he is caught in the middle. Therefore, he experiences only frustration and it seems that Chekhov is big on the theme of 'frustration'. We saw that in the last story.

Well, that is basically how I saw the story. Ok, that would be great if you would comment on the mood. Thanks.

These issues of mood and perspective are kind of big, so I'll probably have to make a separate post for each of these. And, being a little tired from the drive, I don't think I can get to them tonight. Tomorrow I'll write more on this.

[Janine]

I hope everyone had a good weekend. I was out at my parents house, and unfortunately I didn't get a chance to post.

Oh, that's ok. Hope you had a nice time visiting your parents. I was a little tired out this weekend and then I went out tonight for a short while. Now, I am very tired and watching a movie, just thought I should check in here late to see if anything had changed; glad I did.

I thought the o sound my be pronounced like a schwa, but apparently not. At least I was close. His name is only slightly easier to read than Raskilnokov's friend in Crime and Punishment, Razhusmin or Razsuhmin or something.

I think I have avoided Russian novels, for years, for just this reason - the pronouncation of the names really throws me. I was glad to hear a narrator so I could tell how to pronounce them.

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to disturb you out of your sleep. The end is quite jarring, but it's supposed to be surprising. We talked about exaggerating for effect in the last story. That's what's going on here. "Sleepy" is about mistaken associations, and Chekhov makes the last mistake so terrible to heighten the feeling. Even if the ending disturbed you, I still think you have to admit that the story is at least well done.

Oh, it did not keep me awake, because I read something after, so I would not dwell on it. I thought the story was very well written, but I just don't care to read it again. That is a personal thing. I guess 'In the Ravine' also had that disturbing scene that involved a child, as well. Hey, I bought the DVD of "Rosemary's Baby" and I won't even watch it, until my grand-daughter is safely born. "Sleepy" was good and sort of stream of consciousness, with the girl's mind going off into dream-like sequences or remembrances - that was quite different for Chekhov, I thought - it involved 'the past'. Maybe we can do it much later on, but not now, if you don't mind. I really did like 'Children', another story - did you ever read it? I printed out the text for 'The Student' and was hoping we could do that one next month. What do you think? We could also do the one your mentioned - was it 'The Doctor'? If you could suggest a few more stories you favor, I will see if this library book has them; at my library is another collection I can also take out. I wanted to go to Barnes and Noble tonight, to see if they had a collection of C's short stories - I thought I had seen a paperback there, not long ago. I became too tired to go and it was late, after my other errands. I will try to check it out later this week. I want to go there anyway.

That's a good observation. Chekhov presents his stories as moments taken out of life, and he often leaves the past and future to the speculation of the reader.

I noticed his use of present tense the minute I read the first story. I felt foreign to this sort of reading but now I am getting more and more used to it. It is an interesting way to present a story...in the minute. I think Lawrence used the device somethings but then switches back to the past tense.


[/QUOTE]These issues of mood and perspective are kind of big, so I'll probably have to make a separate post for each of these. And, being a little tired from the drive, I don't think I can get to them tonight. Tomorrow I'll write more on this.[/QUOTE]

Well, post whatever you can, and whenever you can. I am in no rush and can wait. Break it up into sections of the text, if you want to. Sounds interesting.

[Quark]

Well, I suppose there's good news Janine. I have a book you can use. It's one that made its way into my collection accidentally. I was in the bookstore (as is my wont) and I was reading their collection of Chekhov stories (also my wont) when suddenly it happened. The coffee cup I was spinning on my finger tipped over and soaked me (not my wont, but it still happens frequently) and a few pages of "A Doctor's Visit" got drenched. I tried very covertly and sleazily to put the book back on the shelf, but just as I got there I made eye contact with the surly owner of the bookstore. At this point I was pretty much backed into a corner. So, I have another Chekhov book available which I can give you. It's pretty good--except for the few pages that are wavy and brown. Do you want it? PM me. Maybe instead, though, I should raffle it off. Or, maybe I could give it away like tickets on radio talk-shows. 9th person to PM me gets a Chekhov book! Either way, I have a book that I could give you. Let me know.


Back to the story, though. I wanted to write something more descriptive of mood, but it gets tedious writing description of every slight variation in feeling. So, I thought I would just do as I've done in the past and represent the mood of the story entirely through emoticons. "Oh! The Public" goes something like this:



I admit it's a little simplified, but I think it works. The eye roll at the beginning shows how suspect Podtygin's original resolution is. The laughing face captures the humor of the first exchange between him and the invalid. The ending is where I'm not sure. I used the sequence brick wall, mad, and cold to represent Podtygin's frustration and descent into cynicism. There may be better combinations than this, though. What do you guys think?


Janine, I didn't have much to respond to in your last post, although I could argue your last point.

I noticed his use of present tense the minute I read the first story. I felt foreign to this sort of reading but now I am getting more and more used to it. It is an interesting way to present a story...in the minute. I think Lawrence used the device somethings but then switches back to the past tense.

[Janine]

Well, I suppose there's good news Janine. I have a book you can use. It's one that made its way into my collection accidentally. I was in the bookstore (as is my wont) and I was reading their collection of Chekhov stories (also my wont) when suddenly it happened. The coffee cup I was spinning on my finger tipped over and soaked me (not my wont, but it still happens frequently) and a few pages of "A Doctor's Visit" got drenched. I tried very covertly and sleazily to put the book back on the shelf, but just as I got there I made eye contact with the surly owner of the bookstore. At this point I was pretty much backed into a corner. So, I have another Chekhov book available which I can give you. It's pretty good--except for the few pages that are wavy and brown. Do you want it? PM me. Maybe instead, though, I should raffle it off. Or, maybe I could give it away like tickets on radio talk-shows. 9th person to PM me gets a Chekhov book! Either way, I have a book that I could give you. Let me know.

Was it at a Barnes and Noble in the cafe section? I was there tonight, but refrained from having coffee, so I did not spill any on the new books. I went straight to the classics, to see if they had a copy of the Chekhov short stories. Well, they did, but don't worry, I did not invest in it. It only had 20 of the stories, of which I have now read several of the ones listed, so what good was that and the book was $8 plus tax. I told myself I should just buy it online - the one you had suggested. So now you generously offer me a 'coffee warped' book. Sounds ok to me; I am used to those type from my not too fussy library. My Lawrence short story book is falling appart, but I can't complain because the guy (Amazon seller) I bought one edition of the stories, threw that one in free; it is still fully readable and has no coffee stains or warps either. Thanks, Quark, for the offer. Maybe we can make an exchange, with me sending you the Chekhov CD copies so you can hear the pronounciations that way and you can impress your friends - they will think you Russian, at last. This way what we pay for shipping will be even. I think it will cost about $2., if you ask for 'media mail' and takes about 10 days. I can wait till then. I will speak of the details in PM to you.

Back to the story, though. I wanted to write something more descriptive of mood, but it gets tedious writing description of every slight variation in feeling. So, I thought I would just do as I've done in the past and represent the mood of the story entirely through emoticons. "Oh! The Public" goes something like this:



I admit it's a little simplified, but I think it works. The eye roll at the beginning shows how suspect Podtygin's original resolution is. The laughing face captures the humor of the first exchange between him and the invalid. The ending is where I'm not sure. I used the sequence brick wall, mad, and cold to represent Podtygin's frustration and descent into cynicism. There may be better combinations than this, though. What do you guys think?

OMG, I can see your recent trip to your parents has left you 'literarly' impaired. Quark, are you in a funny mood or what? Using emoticons is certainly an interesting new shortcut to discussing the story. Maybe, I could cut corners, too, and use them in the "Dubliners" discussion - I could have a different emoticon, for each story's outcome. Oh, boy - have we really come to this??? I would say, Q, get some rest and then rethink this post tomorrow. I must admit you are creative. I suppose you are more of a visual learner, and emoticons were readily available. Would Chekhov believe this or not??? I wonder.....

Janine, I didn't have much to respond to in your last post, although I could argue your last point.

Well, as I said get more sleep and see if there is something worthwhile you might add to it. What did your parents feed you? hummm.......maybe it was the water....

[Quark]

Quark, are you in a funny mood or what? Using emoticons is certainly an interesting new shortcut to discussing the story. Maybe, I could cut corners, too, and use them in the "Dubliners" discussion - I could have a different emoticon, for each story's outcome. Oh, boy - have we really come to this???

No, I wasn't just trying to be funny. It's also me being lazy and trying to find easy ways to summarize the mood of the story. When I write " ", I'm really just saying that the story has a rather low mood punctuated by a few laughs and ends in bitterness. The sterile, impersonal language, the ironic tone, and the cruelty of the plot all contribute to this; but, before we start to ask how the mood is created, I thought I would make sure everyone agreed upon what the mood was. Particularly, I'm interested in how people interpret the ending. I thought the conclusion was quite cold. Podtygin ends up embittered and an unfeeling public has pushed him away. The cold emoticon--laughable as it may be--was the closest I can get to that feeling. Some people may disagree, though. Feel free to correct me.


Oh, and I got creative and made more emoticon strings to represent the other stories we've done.
"Misery"


"The Lady with a Dog"


"Rothschild's Fiddle"


So far there's been a lot of frowny faces. I'll try to pick one of the more optimistic and upbeat stories next month to even things out.

Maybe we can make an exchange, with me sending you the Chekhov CD copies so you can hear the pronounciations that way and you can impress your friends - they will think you Russian, at last. This way what we pay for shipping will be even. I think it will cost about $2., if you ask for 'media mail' and takes about 10 days. I can wait till then. I will speak of the details in PM to you.

I'd be willing to swap.

[Janine]

Quark, OoooK, I am not about to requote that..... - this is my only answer....ok, do you think we can get back to discussing the story, seriously? No wonder you drive people away, Q.; is it your short attention span again, Q, or you wanting to liven up these posts with something visual? Hey, can't we find a nice train photo from Russia and the era of the story - what year would that be, Q? I will hunt for one to post. And there are many frown faces because it seems we keep reading these totally 'depressing' stories; aren't there any happy ones? I read "The Student" two nights ago and found it a little more uplifting, at least at the end. Of course, it did have it's moments of grief and tears. I liked the story - so can we do that one next month?

I decided to ask a few questions about "Oh! The Public".

First off, does anyone think that Podtyagon brings this all on himself? He starts out by saying he will reform, this time. How many times before this, might he have said the same thing? I keep thinking he might be a defeatest type personality and bring on his own fate, by his attitude and actions. I believe the sick man is probably ill, but is exaggerating. The text mentions that he has pillows around him in a train compartment. How can one do so? But also the thought crossed my mind that the sick man was drawing a lot of attention to himself and craved sympathy. Now, when Podtyagon keeps pursuing him for his ticket, even after other customers criticise P for it, he could be subconsciously bringing about his own fate of failure, by ignoring them. In other words, so that in the end his only option is to give up and give in to his drinking habit. I feel he only gives his reform one day and so he says it has failed, afterall, giving up quickly and probably enjoying that he failed. Therefore, I wonder if he is not sanctioning it to end the way the day does end. I don't think in the beginning, he is speaking with great sincerity. If anything, he is trying to convince himself of his new 'convictions' to give up drink and work more efficiently. I doubt he can break his old habits and am convinced of it in the end, when he blames the 'public', for his downfall or backsliding.

[Quark]

First off, does anyone think that Podtyagon brings this all on himself? He starts out by saying he will reform, this time. How many times before this, might he have said the same thing? I keep thinking he might be a defeatest type personality and bring on his own fate, by his attitude and actions.

Obviously he's having problems reforming since he's having to repeat his resolution over and over again; but, I think we're led to believe that his past failures are similar to the one he suffers in the story itself. We know that in this story he doesn't fail from a lack of effort or a defeatist attitude, so I don't know if we can say that a negative attitude is his problem. I would think that after so many experiences like the one suffers in this story that my attitude would be even more negative than his is. Is he really a defeatist in the action of the story? I would have given up earlier. Perhaps he should have. I think you started to come to this when you wrote:

Now, when Podtyagon keeps pursuing him for his ticket, even after other customers criticise P for it, he could be subconsciously bringing about his own fate of failure, by ignoring them. In other words, so that in the end his only option is to give up and give in to his drinking habit.

The ticket collector is very assertive in the beginning of the story--almost to the point of officiousness. Even when it's incredibly insensitive to ask for tickets, Podtygin confronts the passengers and demands their tickets. His need for reform blinds him to the present reality of the situation, and he becomes a buffoon in the eyes of the passengers. He does this quite consciously, too. In fact, he may be over-conscious of what he's doing. That seems to be his undoing.

As for the invalid, his character is rather questionable. Obviously he is ill but at the same time he is also prone to theatrics. He overreacts to Podtgin's simple request, and his claim that he's dying is a bit of an overstatement. Yet, for all that, he still is quite sick. His coughing probably isn't just histrionics. I don't know much about 19th century trains, but I don't think it's too outrageous to bring a pillow on board of one. These are both pretty good indications of his illness. So, he's half sick and half playing for sympathy.

The uncertainty behind both the invalid's and the ticket collector's behavior creates the ambiguity in this story. We don't know who's at fault. Is Podtygin antagonizing the invalid? Or, are the passengers unfairly persecuting the ticket collector?

[Janine]

Obviously he's having problems reforming since he's having to repeat his resolution over and over again; but, I think we're led to believe that his past failures are similar to the one he suffers in the story itself. We know that in this story he doesn't fail from a lack of effort or a defeatist attitude, so I don't know if we can say that a negative attitude is his problem. I would think that after so many experiences like the one suffers in this story that my attitude would be even more negative than his is. Is he really a defeatist in the action of the story? I would have given up earlier. Perhaps he should have. I think you started to come to this when you wrote:

I don't exactly agree with this whole paragraph, Quark...some, but not all. First off, he has to repeat his new convictions to himself and he is stuttering, which shows a lack of true confidence, in believing these convictions to be something, he can truly adhere to. I think he is trying desperately to convince himself, at the very beginning of the story, that he can change and change his way of living, if he just stops drinking and 'bucks up' as he puts it and works hard. Apparently, until now he has just been getting by, working the least he can get away with. We don't know exactly the prior situation, but can guess at it and the beginning statements of his, have a comic air about them, and one that we look at askance, and wonder if he can truly pull-off. Ok, so he does his job, as he said he will, and most of the people yield up their tickets willingly. He comes up against one obstacle, basically, the man who says he is so ill. Maybe, he is not ill at all, but likes morphia and just cares to sleep on the train. Ironically he is subdued on morphia, whereas Podtyagen was subdued on alchohol. Ok, so there is a bit of 'irony' in my mind at this point. Does Podtyagen want to be roused out of his usual drunken state, to actually have to do a bit of real work.
I also, think that he is 'irrating' in the way he goes about asking loudly for the tickets. Tickets...please.... the 'please' is also ironic. He is not saying this politely at all. He is being abrasive. "Please" is reminds me of the way Shakespeare refers to Iago in "Othello" -"Good Iago", it being a totally ironic phrase. I felt the whole time he was actually bringing on his own downfall or failure, knowing full well the bottle would await him, when he did get disgusted again with the world. I don't know for certain, if this is what Chekhov intended to conclude, but to me, two things are going on. Podtyagon is stuck in his habitual way of life; today we would might say he is 'stuck in the system' or 'falls through the cracks'. I wonder at the way, in which Chekhov viewed the world in general. He did not seem to have a lot of sympathy for many people in life, not individuals particularly do I refer to, but such as the general public or groups or gatherings of people. He seems to lump them all into one category, and not to see they are also made up of individuals, with their own concerns; it becomes more like a mob mentality. It seems Podtyagon is shown as the 'victim', but is he the victim of others or of himself? This I am still not sure of, but I feel he does contribute to his own downfall or backsliding in the end.

The ticket collector is very assertive in the beginning of the story--almost to the point of officiousness. Even when it's incredibly insensitive to ask for tickets, Podtygin confronts the passengers and demands their tickets. His need for reform blinds him to the present reality of the situation, and he becomes a buffoon in the eyes of the passengers. He does this quite consciously, too. In fact, he may be over-conscious of what he's doing. That seems to be his undoing.

Podtyagon is very assertive, actually very 'aggressive', and there is a difference. He comes off bossy and officious and this can truly turn off other people. They certainly would not be open to him to begin with. His manner is full of authority and command. He does appear to be a buffoon and an irritating being, to be quickly gotten rid of, if possible. He may like being so commanding (lording his power over the customers), and thus it is the cause partly of his undoing. He probably does know how irritating he is being to others and therefore consciously, knows he will in the end fail and have to return to his old vices. It is more comfortable to remain the same than to truly change one's ways, you know.

As for the invalid, his character is rather questionable. Obviously he is ill but at the same time he is also prone to theatrics. He overreacts to Podtgin's simple request, and his claim that he's dying is a bit of an overstatement. Yet, for all that, he still is quite sick. His coughing probably isn't just histrionics. I don't know much about 19th century trains, but I don't think it's too outrageous to bring a pillow on board of one. These are both pretty good indications of his illness. So, he's half sick and half playing for sympathy.

The invalid is definitely prone to 'theatrics'. He reminds me of a character in a Hitchcock film. He is so quirky and humorous in ways. I recall seeing one old Hitchcock film, "The Lady Vanishes"; it takes place on a train with quirky characters, such as we encounter on this train. I think these themes are universal in nature and there is humor in them. Just the idea of all those pillows conjured up a humorous and curious image to me immediately. I would do a 'double-take', if I were walking through that train. Why of course, just his appearance would draw attention to him. I think he is ill, but he is also not as ill, as he is making out to be. He wants sympathy from all who see him; and how can one miss him? He is quite a whiner also which is irrating and not too believable, as well.

The uncertainty behind both the invalid's and the ticket collector's behavior creates the ambiguity in this story. We don't know who's at fault. Is Podtygin antagonizing the invalid? Or, are the passengers unfairly persecuting the ticket collector?

I like this 'ambiguity' in the story. I don't like neat or complete endings. I like to wonder at the end and the reason it came about and what will occur next for the characters. This keeps the story going on in one's mind, long after the last word was read. It is much like life and makes the story so much more 'real' and sincere and lifelike. It is brilliant writing, when one is not sure of things throughout the story, or must rely on individual interpretations. Everyone, sees something new and different in a story or novel. We tap into the parts that are meaningful to us, this being due to our own past individual experiences. For me on the reading of the train parts, on I imediately was transported in my own mind, back to a time I had to ride the train to NYC. I recall 'people watching' or the sound of the ticket collector coming up the aisle, even the sound of the train on the rails. I think the story is reminescent to one that Lawrence wrote, entitled 'Tickets, Please'....I also read an account of Lawrence's and his wife's journey on a train, in his one travel novel - I forget exactly which of the three novels it was now, but it also was very reminescent of these scenes on the train and the people who rode them.

I have a particular interest in trains, since my mother's family all worked for the railroad and in-fact, my great-grandfather was an engineer on one of those old vintage trains. I have heard many a story.

[Janine]

Quark and Islandclimber, Pensive, etc - here are some photos to shake you all into consciousness! Hello, anyone out there??? Just don't miss my last post, Q, being dazzled by these photos.

Two photos of a train station. I think these are turn of the century, so that might be a little later time. Still I find these interesting, and the buildings, no doubt are older.








Two antique Russian samovars:





Antique Russian candlestick:


Antique Russian key:

[Quark]

Thanks for the visuals Janine. The train station would look quite similar in the story as it does in that picture. This story was written only fourteen years before the turn of the century, so not much would have changed. Those other items were pretty standard Russian appliances in the day. It's interesting to actually get a look at them, thanks.

Now, you say of Podtygin,

Apparently, until now he has just been getting by, working the least he can get away with.

The conclusion of the story leads us to believe that he started off much like how he ended in this episode. He isn't necessarily lazy. He's just disenchanted with work since it doesn't help him in any way. The action of the story represents one cycle in what we're led to believe is a continuous loop for him. He begins with a resolution that eventually fails and he ends in cynicism and drink.

We don't know exactly the prior situation, but can guess at it and the beginning statements of his, have a comic air about them, and one that we look at askance, and wonder if he can truly pull-off.

Right, immediately we notice how shaky his determination is. At the beginning this does make him suspect, but by the end of the story we realize the reason for the uncertainty. Doesn't the action of the story justify his doubts? Like I make the point above, this probably isn't the first time he's made an idiot of himself in front of train-load of people. I would not feel too confident about my chances of reforming if every time that happened to me.

Ironically he is subdued on morphia, whereas Podtyagen was subdued on alchohol.

I didn't notice that. It's a good observation. Both antagonist and protagonist are both prone to a drugging themselves. This makes both of them even more indistinguishable.

Maybe, he is not ill at all, but likes morphia and just cares to sleep on the train. Ok, so there is a bit of 'irony' in my mind at this point. Does Podtyagen want to be roused out of his usual drunken state, to actually have to do a bit of real work.

You think that both the invalid and the ticket collector are using the misconduct of the public to justify their own shortcomings? It is possible, but probably not likely. Podtygin is persecuted by the public, after all. His lament at the end while being partially his fault is not completely his fault. And, what part is his fault wasn't done intentionally.

I also, think that he is 'irrating' in the way he goes about asking loudly for the tickets. Tickets...please.... the 'please' is also ironic. He is not saying this politely at all. He is being abrasive. "Please" is reminds me of the way Shakespeare refers to Iago in "Othello" -"Good Iago", it being a totally ironic phrase. I felt the whole time he was actually bringing on his own downfall or failure, knowing full well the bottle would await him, when he did get disgusted again with the world.

Yeah, these words aren't said politely at all, although that doesn't mean that they were said intentionally impolitely. We commented earlier on how his first speech is spoken both enthusiastically and apprehensively. That is, that he wants to succeed but knows he cannot. This makes his initial pep-talk comic because his intentions are so divorced from reality and we can tell it just from his tone. In his demand for tickets he uses the same comic tone. Podtygin says in his first speech: "HERE goes, I've done with drinking! Nothing. . . n-o-thing shall tempt me to it." We notice that two characteristic of his early speaking are repetition and o-o-verly stre-e-ssed and elongated sounds. His demand of the passengers sounds similar. He says, "T-t-t-ickets . . . P-p-p-please!...T-t-t-tickets, please!...T-t-tickets, p-p-please!" He says it three times with elongated first sounds. He's applying that same hopelessly optimistic tone that he was using earlier. This isn't evidence that he wants to fail. It's just showing how out of touch the ticket collector must be. Later in the exchange with the invalid he yells, "Don't shout here! This is not a tavern!" He shouts at someone to tell them to stop shouting. Clearly the ticket collector isn't totally with it here. After the first outburst of the invalid Chekhov writes, "Podtyagin considers whether to take offence or not -- and decides to take offence." Podtyagin has to decide whether he's offended or not. Why does he have to decide how he feels? Can't he just react? No, he has to decide based on the completely unrealistic resolution he made earlier in the story, and that seems to be what's making him so out of touch. All of this gives us the image of a willing, even enthusiastic reformer who's very ideas of reform make him unconscious of what's going on around him. None of that, though, makes me think he's intentionally sabotaging himself.


Whew, I thoroughly exhausted myself with that last paragraph. I'll have to answer the rest of your post later. The only other thing I want to say right now is that I'm still not sure about next month's story. I'm getting to it. It will be one from the book I'm giving you, so don't be worried about not having it. I'm sure LitNet will have it, too.

[Janine]

Thanks for the visuals Janine. The train station would look quite similar in the story as it does in that picture. This story was written only fourteen years before the turn of the century, so not much would have changed. Those other items were pretty standard Russian appliances in the day. It's interesting to actually get a look at them, thanks.

Quark, glad you liked them. I thought the station photos were quite interesting. I hope everyone enjoys them. I liked the objects, since I have read of such in the stories and also other novels, but didn't have a clear idea of just what they looked like - such as the samovars. I think those are quite unique and I also liked the odd looking key.

Now, you say of Podtygin,


The conclusion of the story leads us to believe that he started off much like how he ended in this episode. He isn't necessarily lazy. He's just disenchanted with work since it doesn't help him in any way. The action of the story represents one cycle in what we're led to believe is a continuous loop for him. He begins with a resolution that eventually fails and he ends in cynicism and drink.

Well, disenchantment in the world can breed a sort of laziness or lack of incentive - sort of a 'why even try?' attitude or as we spoke of before in "Misery" a sort of inertia. I would imagine up until this story begins, this is the attitude that Podtyogan has adopted in his daily life. Yes, this story does represent one cycle of in his life - just one day, isn't it? I read last night in a general commentary book about Chekhov, that he liked to simply portray a slice of life and show the reader one little series of events in a person's life or a few individual lives. Also, by doing so he is showing us that this is not the way to live. When he shows the meaness of characters such as are apparent in "Misery" again he is showing us this is wrong; as we read we do feel an outrage for those insensitive characters. In reality I was surprised to find that Chekhov, himself, was actually not a pessimist but very much an optimist. I found this quite interesting, but I am familiar with this device in writing of such sad affairs. Dickens did the same and so did other authors in order to impart the idea that life could indeed be changed and better, if one moved away from their dire situations. This is hard to explain and I think I am doing a poor job here of bringing this idea across. I think by pointing out this attitude that poor Podtyagon is hemmed into one can see there might be other alternatives or one should not live this way. It is not a hopeless story, in other words; maybe so for the character, but not for the reader.
I also, read that this story is a kind of comedy and I guess today we might label it a dark or black comedy of sorts. The beginning and the end do have a comic aspect to them. I laugh now when I hear it read out loud. You have to think how funny he sounds with his way of speaking and his self proclaimed plan for reform.

Right, immediately we notice how shaky his determination is. At the beginning this does make him suspect, but by the end of the story we realize the reason for the uncertainty. Doesn't the action of the story justify his doubts? Like I make the point above, this probably isn't the first time he's made an idiot of himself in front of train-load of people. I would not feel too confident about my chances of reforming if every time that happened to me.

Yes, his determination is shaky and displayed in his words, even the inflection in his voice, so that we are leary and questioning of his convictions, or at least I was.
How do you view the reason for his uncertainity? Do you say, that all who work with the public have this excuse, to not work hard and to drink and give up on life? I don't completely feel 'the action of the story' justifies Podtyagon's doubts or his actions. He has a choice, at one juncture of the story, to pursue the argument with the ill man, or to drop it. He chooses the confrontation. Did you ever work with the public, Quark? Sometimes the worker has to bend or give in, because the public can be quite irritating, to say the least. At times they can be downright hostile - it comes with the job and territory to stay calm and to treat the customer nicely at times, just to avoid a full-blown confrontation. I have worked in retail and I know. They used to have a slogan, 'the customer is always right'. It is sort of like 'innocent until proven quilty'. When Podtyagon pursues the argument with the customer a sort of powerplay ensues between them and the ill man uses his own condition as a sort of power device to acquire sympathy from all around him - in other words he uses this to fight off Podtyagon. Of course he is not playing fairly. So one decision to pursue the argument leads to the people in the coach criticising and condemning Podtyagon for his actions. It now seems the whole world is against him.

I didn't notice that. It's a good observation. Both antagonist and protagonist are both prone to a drugging themselves. This makes both of them even more indistinguishable.

Well, they are actually similar in this way. Basically the story is about 2 characters - these two and there is this powerplay, as I said above, between them.

You think that both the invalid and the ticket collector are using the misconduct of the public to justify their own shortcomings? It is possible, but probably not likely. Podtygin is persecuted by the public, after all. His lament at the end while being partially his fault is not completely his fault. And, what part is his fault wasn't done intentionally.

I don't think I said that the effect of the public on them is what makes them have shortcomings. Is that what you mean? Podtyagon must be very sensitive to let it truly bother him just what the public thinks. It is, afterall, just one day in his life. It is not a momumental moment but he sees it that way. I think because his convictions on stopping his drinking habit are so frail and shaky he is overly sensitive to this situation he finds himself in. I agree - the end is partly his fault and partly not. However he again makes the choice to give up on life, and drown his own existence in a bottle. Both he and the invalid seem to like to get numb to the world around them.

Yeah, these words aren't said politely at all, although that doesn't mean that they were said intentionally impolitely. We commented earlier on how his first speech is spoken both enthusiastically and apprehensively. That is, that he wants to succeed but knows he cannot. This makes his initial pep-talk comic because his intentions are so divorced from reality and we can tell it just from his tone. In his demand for tickets he uses the same comic tone.

Yes, he comes off as rather abrasive and rude in his manor. At least listening to someone read (audiobook) and play out the lines, he is throwing at the public makes it seem so. He is very comical but also quite annoying and loud. Yes, it is true that he is actually divorced from reality in his new set of convictions. One knows perfectly well he will end up not sticking to the new plan.

Podtygin says in his first speech: "HERE goes, I've done with drinking! Nothing. . . n-o-thing shall tempt me to it."

That is pretty funny, if you think about it...."n-o-thing shall tempt me to it." It only takes the space of one day to tempt him back to the old habit of drinking to drown his dissatisfaction and disappointment with the world.

We notice that two characteristic of his early speaking are repetition and o-o-verly stre-e-ssed and elongated sounds. His demand of the passengers sounds similar. He says, "T-t-t-ickets . . . P-p-p-please!...T-t-t-tickets, please!...T-t-tickets, p-p-please!" He says it three times with elongated first sounds. He's applying that same hopelessly optimistic tone that he was using earlier.

Yes, I agree - 'hopelessly optimistic tone' - good way of putting that.

This isn't evidence that he wants to fail.

I don't think consciously he wants to fail but then again I don't think he truly pictures himself succeeding either. His efforts to succeed are pretty minimal. What give his new resolution just one day and then give up? Hardly an effort.

It's just showing how out of touch the ticket collector must be. Later in the exchange with the invalid he yells, "Don't shout here! This is not a tavern!" He shouts at someone to tell them to stop shouting. Clearly the ticket collector isn't totally with it here.

I don't think he is thinking logically or practically at all. As you said he shouts to someone not to shout. I know people who do that and one has to just laugh or shake one's head in dismay.

After the first outburst of the invalid Chekhov writes, "Podtyagin considers whether to take offence or not -- and decides to take offence." Podtyagin has to decide whether he's offended or not.

Well, I talked about this fork in the road in an earlier comment. I feel that at this point Podtyagon took the wrong road if he was to remain on his path to reform. However, from the beginning his odd sort of abrasive tone of enthusiam to undertake his job is a sure sign he will fail. He kind of takes the wrong road from the time he boards the train. It just snowballs and reaches it's height when he confronts the invalid.

Why does he have to decide how he feels? Can't he just react? No, he has to decide based on the completely unrealistic resolution he made earlier in the story, and that seems to be what's making him so out of touch. All of this gives us the image of a willing, even enthusiastic reformer who's very ideas of reform make him unconscious of what's going on around him. None of that, though, makes me think he's intentionally sabotaging himself.

I don't understand your first two questions exactly. I do think he is deciding unrealistically how to answer the invalid. He is annoyed obviously and assumes the man is cheating him not having a ticket. Perhaps the man doesn't have one, who knows. Letting one ticket go probably would not have been a huge offense for Podtyagon but now instead he will bring on himself a worse offense and situation, by opposing this ill passenger. I did not say he was intentionally sabotaging himself but that unconsciously he does not believe he will be successful in his new conviction and therefore he is not helping himself in anyway; therefore, in a sense he is unconsciously or subconsiously sabotaging his success and reform.

Whew, I thoroughly exhausted myself with that last paragraph. I'll have to answer the rest of your post later. The only other thing I want to say right now is that I'm still not sure about next month's story. I'm getting to it. It will be one from the book I'm giving you, so don't be worried about not having it. I'm sure LitNet will have it, too.

Whew, me too...exhausted! I don't know if I can even post anymore today, in this thread. I have to go out soon and will be back later, but I want to watch a movie I bought, and send out e-cards for Easter. It all takes time. I do have some good commentary I came across last night - not on this story but general information about Chekhov and his writing of short stories and sketches. I don't think I will have the time to post those until next week, but I think you will all find it quite interesting. You know me, I like to pursue the author to some extent. Now I am curious about our young Anton Chekhov.

[Quark]

I've been a little slow these past few days and haven't gotten around to posting--sorry about that. Really, though, there isn't much left to add. We've already talked about both the main characters and the conflict. Let me just respond to Janine and ask one more question before we move on to the next story.

Well, disenchantment in the world can breed a sort of laziness or lack of incentive - sort of a 'why even try?' attitude or as we spoke of before in "Misery" a sort of inertia. I would imagine up until this story begins, this is the attitude that Podtyogan has adopted in his daily life. Yes, this story does represent one cycle of in his life - just one day, isn't it? I read last night in a general commentary book about Chekhov, that he liked to simply portray a slice of life and show the reader one little series of events in a person's life or a few individual lives. Also, by doing so he is showing us that this is not the way to live. When he shows the meaness of characters such as are apparent in "Misery" again he is showing us this is wrong; as we read we do feel an outrage for those insensitive characters. In reality I was surprised to find that Chekhov, himself, was actually not a pessimist but very much an optimist. I found this quite interesting, but I am familiar with this device in writing of such sad affairs. Dickens did the same and so did other authors in order to impart the idea that life could indeed be changed and better, if one moved away from their dire situations. This is hard to explain and I think I am doing a poor job here of bringing this idea across. I think by pointing out this attitude that poor Podtyagon is hemmed into one can see there might be other alternatives or one should not live this way. It is not a hopeless story, in other words; maybe so for the character, but not for the reader.
I also, read that this story is a kind of comedy and I guess today we might label it a dark or black comedy of sorts. The beginning and the end do have a comic aspect to them. I laugh now when I hear it read out loud. You have to think how funny he sounds with his way of speaking and his self proclaimed plan for reform.

His will is rather weak, and he does give in too easily. But, you have to admit that his stubborness and inflexibility are part of what brings about his failure.

I like your comparison with Dickens. Of all the English writers Dickens is probably the closest in my mind to Chekhov. Something about the characterization, tone, and subject matter always makes their stories similar. Chekhov is like the more terse Dickens. Or, Dickens is like the quirkier Chekhov.


Finally, I wanted to ask one last question about the passenger. We haven't talked about them outside of the invalid. What does Chekhov tell us about them? What do you make of them?

[Janine]

I've been a little slow these past few days and haven't gotten around to posting--sorry about that. Really, though, there isn't much left to add. We've already talked about both the main characters and the conflict. Let me just respond to Janine and ask one more question before we move on to the next story.

That is ok, Quark, I have not been here much either. I got so busy with the holidays, etc. and will be busy this week. When we start a new story, I request we start the beginning of April, ok? I agree about this story we are discussing. I think basically we are pretty much done with it by now. Anymore and we will be overdoing the analysis.

His will is rather weak, and he does give in too easily. But, you have to admit that his stubborness and inflexibility are part of what brings about his failure.

Sure, I agree with you on both of these statements. He is definitely 'stubborn' and 'inflexible', adding greatly to his backslidding and downfall.

I like your comparison with Dickens. Of all the English writers Dickens is probably the closest in my mind to Chekhov. Something about the characterization, tone, and subject matter always makes their stories similar. Chekhov is like the more terse Dickens. Or, Dickens is like the quirkier Chekhov.

Oh, thanks! So you agree and can also see some similarities. I would never have thought it but now I do. Yes, the differences you pointed out are good ways of saying that. Definitely Chekhov is more terse.

Finally, I wanted to ask one last question about the passenger. We haven't talked about them outside of the invalid. What does Chekhov tell us about them? What do you make of them?

Do you mean passengers? I don't know. I have to think about it a bit. Maybe it is the mob mentality and when one person states the authority (ticket collector) has done wrong, then the others chime in and so they all think alike. People love to rebell against authority if they have the opportunity to. I think this might be the case in this story, not that they actually all believe Podtyagon is guilty. Did you ever read of see the play "Enemy of the People"? I saw it last night on VHS and that is essentially what happens in this play - the 'mob mentality' takes over or the majority all think alike by gradual coerion. The man they deem heroic at the start of the play, they later condemn as 'the enemy of the people". Interesting play; if you get a chance do see it or read it.

[islandclimber]

Hey you two.. sorry I've been gone for so long.. just been in kind of funk the last couple weeks.. a melancholy rut since coming back from climbing in California... but I am looking froward to starting on another story...

Thank you for the photos Janine.. they were great, and give so much more of a clear mental picture of the period when reading, though I have to admit it is fun to create one's own image...

I see both of you mentioned above about Podtyagon being at fault himself for his slide back into alcoholism and despair.. That is exactly what I take from the story... I know several alcoholics, some family members in fact, as well as smokers, and other such addictions, and they always find an external influence to give up each and every attempt to quit, and only when threatened with real loss are the real addicts able to quit, and even then not always... and Podtyagon sets himself up for this with his behaviour throughout the story, he wants an excuse for the failure he knows is coming..

well... you two have pretty much covered everything.. I look forward to the next story, and participating a little more on this one again.. what story are we doing and when are we starting???

[Janine]

Hey you two.. sorry I've been gone for so long.. just been in kind of funk the last couple weeks.. a melancholy rut since coming back from climbing in California... but I am looking froward to starting on another story...

islandclimber, it's good to see you again, stranger. I was afraid we had totally lost you from this thread. I am glad to see you return. A new story might pep things up a bit. We all get into those 'melancholy ruts' from time to time. I feel sort of like one is coming on now and I am fighting it. I feel I need a slight rest or something. I don't think I can do a novel discussion, for another month or so. Just discussing the short stories is taxing enough and leaves me a little time to post in the movie thread, which I enjoy that interchange; oh and also to answer my countless emails and keep up with other independend reading and study.

Thank you for the photos Janine.. they were great, and give so much more of a clear mental picture of the period when reading, though I have to admit it is fun to create one's own image...

I enjoyed looking them up. You are welcome. I was so glad to find a cool Russian site with those train photos and other interesting old photos of someone's family. That gave one an idea of the way people dressed in Russia in that era. I should post some more photos I found. Well, you still have to imagine a bit, since Quark said the photos of the train stations are a few years advanced of the story but would basically look the same.

I see both of you mentioned above about Podtyagon being at fault himself for his slide back into alcoholism and despair.. That is exactly what I take from the story... I know several alcoholics, some family members in fact, as well as smokers, and other such addictions, and they always find an external influence to give up each and every attempt to quit, and only when threatened with real loss are the real addicts able to quit, and even then not always... and Podtyagon sets himself up for this with his behaviour throughout the story, he wants an excuse for the failure he knows is coming..

Yes, I think we discussed that well and came to a similar conclusion. I agree with your addition and have know people who were addicted and you are right - they find any means or excuse to backslide. I felt this was what Podtyagon was doing indeed by setting up goals impossible to carry out perfectly; therefore he gives up and feels he has once again failed. With addicts of any kind they refer to it as the revolving door syndrome, even thought his refers to going into a fascility or a rehab/hospital. My sister knows people who have mental problems (extreme cases) who also hit the bottle and they reform for a time and sadly to say they always backslide and blame it on others.

well... you two have pretty much covered everything.. I look forward to the next story, and participating a little more on this one again.. what story are we doing and when are we starting???

Yes, I too look forward to the next story. I think Quark is still reviewing and mulling over the choices. Hope he decides soon so I can find the story online and print it out again. My printer jet is holding out. I thought it was shot but it is still printing so I am in business, until I get a book.