D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Hey you two are getting along way too well this time around. That's not allowed. You're supposed to be disagreeing so i can come in and break the tie.

Hahahaha Yeah right.....I kind of like the peace....don't pay attention to him, DM!

This story reminds me of Virginia Woolf's book, The Waves. Just like in that novel, we have these people with vastly different personalities all wishing they could have what each other have. Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.

What??? are you joking, Quark? I am not too sure about this post of yours. I would say that is simplifying things a bit. I didn't read "The Waves" so I can't really compare the two. I don't see that Bertie has a desire to be intimate and sexual as Maurice is at all. Where are you getting that idea from, Quark? I don't think Isabel wants both men in quite the same way. Bertie is not even described as being very physically appealing.

I think someone else mentioned the ending being surprising, and I have to agree. I really didn't expect this one to end with a reconciliation and an almost happy ending. Everything seemed to be moving toward crisis. It really had a tragic look to it until the very end.

Yes, I think it was actually Pensive who said that, or it might have been Dark Muse. Yes, the ending did take a surprising left turn. I liked it doing so - kind of woke up the reader and made you take notice.

[Dark Muse]

What??? are you joking, Quark? I am not too sure about this post of yours. I would say that is simplifying things a bit. I didn't read "The Waves" so I can't really compare the two. I don't see that Bertie has a desire to be intimate and sexual as Maurice is at all. Where are you getting that idea from, Quark? I don't think Isabel wants both men in quite the same way. Bertie is not even described as being very physically appealing.

Though I do not think she wants both men in the same way, I really do not think that she has any desire, attraction to Bertie, as she even says, that she patronizes him, and has contempt for him. But at the same time, I can kind of see what Quark is saying. She wants different things form both men. She still wants her friendship with Bertie, and she wants his worldiness, his intellect and perhaps someone to share in the world of sight with her.

But she wants the close intimacy that Maurice can give her as well. But I do think that she intends to keep her relationship with Bertie completely platonic.

And there is one point in which Bertie says:

He was ashamed of himself, becasue he could not marry, could not apporach women physicaly. He wanted to do so. But could not. At the center of him he was afriad, helplessly and even brutally afraid. He had given up hope, had ceased to exepct any more that he would escape his own weakness.

This seems to express that he does have the desire to form more normal and intimate relastionships, but cannot get over his anxiety to do so.

Yes, I think it was actually Pensive who said that, or it might have been Dark Muse. Yes, the ending did take a surprising left turn. I liked it doing so - kind of woke up the reader and made you take notice.

LOL I said the ending was creepy

[Quark]

What??? are you joking, Quark? I am not too sure about this post of yours. I would say that is simplifying things a bit. I didn't read "The Waves" so I can't really compare the two. I don't see that Bertie has a desire to be intimate and sexual as Maurice is at all. Where are you getting that idea from, Quark? I don't think Isabel wants both men in quite the same way. Bertie is not even described as being very physically appealing.

Well, yeah Isabel doesn't want both of them for the same reason. She's much more physically attracted to Maurice; but, let's face it, Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He can hardly carry on a civil conversation for more than a few words. Bertie is the much more talkative, friendly sort of man that Isabel would like to talk to. Which would be great for Bertie except the fact that he feels emasculated by his own timidity. And, he wants to find some real intimacy. Lawrence phrases it like this:

He was ashamed of himself, because he could not marry, could not approach women physically. He wanted to do so. But he could not. At the centre of him he was afraid, helplessly and even brutally afraid. He had given up hope, had ceased to expect any more that he could escape his own weakness. Hence he was a brilliant and successful barrister, also litterateur of high repute, a rich man, and a great social success. At the centre he felt himself neuter, nothing...She [Isabel] looked at his dark grey eyes, with their uncanny, almost childlike intuition, and she loved him. He understood amazingly--but she had no fear of his understanding. As a man she patronized him.

Maurice, in his turn, has his own problems. He wants Isabel, but she's busy being a mom and talking to Bertie.

So, concisely, that's why I'm saying there's this unhappy triangle of unfulfilled desires.

LOL I said the ending was creepy

The end is kind of creepy isn't it. The whole Bertie feeling up Maurice's eye socket was pretty weird; but, at the same time, I thought it worked to show them connecting.

[Janine]

Though I do not think she wants both men in the same way, I really do not think that she has any desire, attraction to Bertie, as she even says, that she patronizes him, and has contempt for him. But at the same time, I can kind of see what Quark is saying. She wants different things form both men. She still wants her friendship with Bertie, and she wants his worldiness, his intellect and perhaps someone to share in the world of sight with her.

Yeah, but before Quark says Isabel wants both men; Q stated this:
Quote by Quark:

Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.

I don't think this is true at all. Maurice does not desire to be like Bertie, nor Bertie like Maurice. It may be possible Bertie would like being able to connect with women, but he does not desire to take on the role of Maurice. At least I don't see it that way at all. But then who knows. I still think to think that way is projecting too much into what they desire.

But she wants the close intimacy that Maurice can give her as well. But I do think that she intends to keep her relationship with Bertie completely platonic.

Definitely agree......oh no, DM, we are agreeing again.

And there is one point in which Bertie says:

I didn't requote that, but it is a good one to point out. I see Quark quoted the same part but with a few more lines. This passage says a great deal about Bertie.

This seems to express that he does have the desire to form more normal and intimate relastionships, but cannot get over his anxiety to do so.

Yes, and I think he is pychologically deficient in being able to connect intimately with a woman. He wanted it but could not achieve it.

LOL I said the ending was creepy

Yes, Dark Muse, true, you did say that it was 'creepy', but it was Pensive who said it was a surprise ending - in post #1092

Quote by Pensive:

Last night, I managed to read the story. Really liked it a lot though of course it did ruin my predictions that I had created in my mind's eye. The ending was totally unexpected for me as I had not expected the two men one of whom resented the other who never let the chance of mocking him pass to be friends again. But the whole scene in the end, the start of their 'friendship' and the feelings of Bertie I guess made up the most interesting part of the story, unexpected though it might be for me. Sometimes surprises are good too.

Well, yeah Isabel doesn't want both of them for the same reason. She's much more physically attracted to Maurice; but, let's face it, Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He can hardly carry on a civil conversation for more than a few words. Bertie is the much more talkative, friendly sort of man that Isabel would like to talk to. Which would be great for Bertie except the fact that he feels emasculated by his own timidity. And, he wants to find some real intimacy. Lawrence phrases it like this:

Ok, now is you turn, Quark, sorry I did not post last night. We had a big storm here and I had to shut down early. I don't take chances after I had a modem burned out from one thunderstorm.
Yes, I would suppose that Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He seems to want Isabel all to himself and he is of course somewhat insecure when she does not indulge him, giving her full attention on him. In someways it is true he acts as a child now and yet the promise of a real child entering their lives is probably a big factor in complicating the couple's life. I think normal couples feel a little uneasy at times about the approach of a third person in their marriage and the child is that addition they will have to adjust to. It will no longer be an exclusive household of just two lovers.
Yes, Bertie definitely represents to Lawrenc the other aspect of the intellectual/logical thinker, such as Lawrence's own mother. His father corresponds so much more to his father who related to life in a much more visceral/physical way.

Maurice, in his turn, has his own problems. He wants Isabel, but she's busy being a mom and talking to Bertie.

Exactly and now he is feeling threatened to be left out of his wife's seeing world. Soon the child will share that 'seeing' world as well and so he will definitely be feeling some bit of exclusion. For now when Bertie and Isabel converse at the table he is not of their 'seeing' world. It is understandable that after a time he can't relate and therefore retreats to the barn to immerse himself in his own 'sightless' world again.

So, concisely, that's why I'm saying there's this unhappy triangle of unfulfilled desires.

Yes, this I agree upon. But it is not a triangle that will last past the short visit of Bertie I believe, unless Bertie makes a point of coming often to see Isabel. I feel that the ending is, as Dark Muse has pointed out, scared Bertie away somewhat. I guess time will tell, and we will never know.

The end is kind of creepy isn't it. The whole Bertie feeling up Maurice's eye socket was pretty weird; but, at the same time, I thought it worked to show them connecting.

It felt shocking to me. But I think that if it were an experience with a blind person I knew I would feel repulsion and shock at first, so that I think Lawrence now introducing this part into the story and so late in the story is achieving just what he intended it to achieve. He has not included the reader in the experience of being presented with something truly ugly and something which was brought about by the horror of war. Like I said before, there is an element of war in this story and yet Lawrence adeptly has not mentioned the word that I know of. He only said "Flanders" which conjures up enough horror in our minds if we have seen films/documentaries of the First World War. The shunken eye sockets and the deep scar are symbols in this story of the horror of war and it's effect on humanity. I think the writing is quite brilliant in this last part.

[Dark Muse]

I don't think this is true at all. Maurice does not desire to be like Bertie, nor Bertie like Maurice. It may be possible Bertie would like being able to connect with women, but he does not desire to take on the role of Maurice. At least I don't see it that way at all. But then who knows. I still think to think that way is projecting too much into what they desire.

Though I do not think that Maurice wants to be like Bertie, as it has been discussed I do think that Bertie does wish he could have more normal relationships. Perhaps not to be just like Maurice is, and I really do not think he would want to try and go after Isabel.

And didn't say somewhere that they were cousins?

But I think he would like to have the ablity to have the kind of relationship that Maurice and Isabel have.

[Janine]

Though I do not think that Maurice wants to be like Bertie, as it has been discussed I do think that Bertie does wish he could have more normal relationships. Perhaps not to be just like Maurice is, and I really do not think he would want to try and go after Isabel.

I agree with that.

And didn't say somewhere that they were cousins?

I don't recall the mention of cousins. Whose cousins were they? I will review the text.
But I think he would like to have the ablity to have the kind of relationship that Maurice and Isabel have.

Probably he would, but not to emulate Maurice. Bertie would like a connection to women but can't achieve it because of something emotionally deficient within himself.

How odd Lawrence would call him Bertie. Lawrence's nickname while growing up was Bert.

[Dark Muse]

I don't recall the mention of cousins. Whose cousins were they? I will review the text.

Here it is:

She sighed with fear. But this time Bertie Reid wrote to Isabel. He was her old friend, a second or third cousin, a Scotchman, and she was a Scotchwoman.

Probably he would, but not to emulate Maurice. Bertie would like a connection to women but can't achieve it because of something emotionally deficient within himself.

Yes I agree with that, I think he would want it, but only for his own personal satifaction.

How odd Lawrence would call him Bertie. Lawrence's nickname while growing up was Bert.

That is interesting

[Virgil]

Oh how depressing. You three are so far in front of me. I have no way to catch up. I'm just too tired. I wanted to finish The Name of the Rose and get into Dubliners but I'll never gtet there.

[Dark Muse]

*gives Virgil a pat on the back*

[Janine]

Oh how depressing. You three are so far in front of me. I have no way to catch up. I'm just too tired. I wanted to finish The Name of the Rose and get into Dubliners but I'll never gtet there.

Oh Virgil, so sorry - our little brains just got so full of great ideas we could not hold back. If you miss this story, I will discuss it with you anytime. It is only the 5th of the month though; we did get pretty far, didn't we. I think if when you can find the time, you were to read the posts and then add your bit that would be great. I was hoping you could give us some personal experience with living with a blind person since your father went blind at an older age. I am sure you have good first hand insight into what is is like for the person one loves.

Do you mean to tell me you are still discussing "Name of the Rose" - did you finish reading it yet? I commented briefly in "Dubliners", but guess what? I can seem to locate my book. Are the stories on this site, do you know? I should check that out. Are you also still discussing "The Aeneid? If so you get a pat on the back from me, too!

I am kind of bogged down myself, trying to discuss "Tale of Two Cities", no time limit; Chekhov - that is going well with "Misery" and soon we will also discuss "Oh! The Public". Chekhov stories seems simplier and shorter than L stories, so we are doing two this month. I want to get back to listening to the second half of WIL on my MP3 player; remember I had put that on hold? I was going to go back and get the audiobook of "The Name of the Rose" tonight, but I am too tired out and it is late. Library closes at 9:00. Trouble is one of the tapes is messed up and won't play right so I don't know if I should just abandon that idea for now. Maybe I have enough on my plate without worrying about that book, too.

[Pensive]

I am sorry guys for the delay in posting. Now I have tried I go through all these posts, but I would have to say I had to skim a little bit (or probably quite a bit) so don't be angry at me if I have missed something.

Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.

By what I have read in the story, I get no hint that Maurice and Bertie want to be like each other. As for Isabel wanting both men, yes, of course she does but I think in different ways. As someone pointed out here that she probably wants Bertie in a most platonic way, I woulld agree with it, though of course who knows what's going on deep inside their minds as Janine puts it too. As far as I can see in the story, it doesn't seem like that though.

Exactly and now he is feeling threatened to be left out of his wife's seeing world. Soon the child will share that 'seeing' world as well and so he will definitely be feeling some bit of exclusion. For now when Bertie and Isabel converse at the table he is not of their 'seeing' world. It is understandable that after a time he can't relate and therefore retreats to the barn to immerse himself in his own 'sightless' world again.

Very well-put. Did this paragraph bring tears in somebody's eyes? It really made me feel bad for Maurice.

Like I said before, there is an element of war in this story and yet Lawrence adeptly has not mentioned the word that I know of. He only said "Flanders" which conjures up enough horror in our minds if we have seen films/documentaries of the First World War. The shunken eye sockets and the deep scar are symbols in this story of the horror of war and it's effect on humanity.

I am not sure if I think so (Cheer up Virgil, you can take it as a disagreement ) though of course it's fascinating to find deeper meaning or different books symbolizing something else.

I think the writing is quite brilliant in this last part.

Yes, here I whole-heartedly agree with you!

How odd Lawrence would call him Bertie. Lawrence's nickname while growing up was Bert.

Now that's a really interesting piece of information you provided us, Janine. Can it be that Bertie was influenced by Bert (Lawrence himself)? The story might be related to some part of Lawrence's own story, can it be? Now these are questions I have been forced to ask myself....we have seen that in places Lawrence has used a part of 'himself' in his stories....I wonder if it can be over here too....Hmmm.

[Virgil]

Hey I just read it last night. First reading so I'm not up on all the points. I won't get into real detail until I read it again. So comments are just initial reactions. I could change my mind later.

By what I have read in the story, I get no hint that Maurice and Bertie want to be like each other. As for Isabel wanting both men, yes, of course she does but I think in different ways. As someone pointed out here that she probably wants Bertie in a most platonic way, I woulld agree with it, though of course who knows what's going on deep inside their minds as Janine puts it too. As far as I can see in the story, it doesn't seem like that though.

I agree with Pensy. I don't catch the any sexuality between Isabel and Bertie. I find Isabel completely in love and devoted to Maurice.

I am not sure if I think so (Cheer up Virgil, you can take it as a disagreement ) though of course it's fascinating to find deeper meaning or different books symbolizing something else.

Oh it wasn't me who said anything about the war. The war is a factor in the story, but I'm not sure how much of a factor. The only factor it seems to be for me is that it has heightened Maurice's insight into life. I don't really see this story as anti war or having anti war implications. So I lean more to Pensy's view.

Now that's a really interesting piece of information you provided us, Janine. Can it be that Bertie was influenced by Bert (Lawrence himself)? The story might be related to some part of Lawrence's own story, can it be? Now these are questions I have been forced to ask myself....we have seen that in places Lawrence has used a part of 'himself' in his stories....I wonder if it can be over here too....Hmmm.

Very interesting he calls Lawrence calls him Bertie. Yes, his nickname was Bertie. But I found this character to be almost completely based on Bertram Russell, like I mentioned a few pages back. His full name is Bertie Reid, almost sounds like it. And it is somewhat suggested he's homosexual, like Bertram Russell. If you can find that post I wrote a few pages back you'll see that Lawrence and Russell were friends until they had this famous falling out, and it was somewhat over Russell's homosexuality. The Lawrence/Russell relationship obviously is important in this story, so i'll have to dig up that famous letter. I think I quoted it way back in this thread for another story or perhaps it was in the Women In Love thread. But it is very significant to this story.

[Dark Muse]

Oh it wasn't me who said anything about the war. The war is a factor in the story, but I'm not sure how much of a factor. The only factor it seems to be for me is that it has heightened Maurice's insight into life. I don't really see this story as anti war or having anti war implications. So I lean more to Pensy's view.

Well I think the story shows the simple reality of the after-math of war, though I do not think it is ment to be political in anyway, but it gives the point of view of one family that will forever be affected by war.

[Janine]

Well I think the story shows the simple reality of the after-math of war, though I do not think it is ment to be political in anyway, but it gives the point of view of one family that will forever be affected by war.

Hi Everyone - wow, all showed up today, great!

Yes, DM,and when one family member is affected by war or even some other disability that wasn't caused by a war - maybe an accident or illness - then the whole family is affected. There is a common syndrome, whereby the disabled person has a sense of 'guilt', and can't always get into the center of that guilt or name it. There can be various reasons they feel this profound 'guilt'. Maybe they feel, if only they could have prevented themselves from being 'damaged', they would not have hurt their loved ones. I think in this case, when Maurice becomes depressed, he feels this and he realises his impact on Isabel's life, and now he must also feel it even more with the anticipation of being a parent, a blind parent as it turned out. Maybe Maurice feels he will be inadequate for his child, as well. I really feel for his concerns and his sadness. It can't be an easy thing to deal with. His life now has 'limitations' and in someways, he knows he must depend on his wife. I think if one has experienced this part of life - being faced with disability and knowing now, that they were not as they had once been, then there is a feeling of inadequecy; it may not be evident daily, but it surfaces from time to time...definitely....and it never truly goes away. In this way I felt the war was a background to the story but definitely not a key factor. I felt that Maurice could also have been injured in an accident - maybe a pit accident or something else and this would be similiar, however I think the fact that Lawrence did write that he had been injured at "Flanders" brought this war idea into the story. I think Lawrence intentionally did this in this story and also in WIL. Lawrence, himself stated in the 'Introduction' to "Women in Love" that the novel was written in 'wartime', but never is war emphasised directly in the novel, however the idea of it is definitely there.

When people are injured in war (or otherwise) they may appear to be totally adjusted to that disability and yet there is a 'deep-seeded' regret that they were ever injured and altered, and they say there is a sense of 'anger', as well. How can it be otherwise?

Therefore I feel that Maurice's feelings are very multilayered and complex. It is not a simplistic thing to figure Maurice or his actions out. We are of the 'seeing' world and therefore, we have no true concept of what he is going through.

Hi Pensive and hi Virgil, glad you guys are back. Virgil, I am also in the midst of re-reading the story. I stopped when I got to the part that talked of the blood philosophy. I was hoping you would speak more about that since that is something you know more about than I do; or at least you seem to be able to express it better in words than I can.
Virgil, yes, do post that letter if you can find it. I do think you posted that in the WIL discussion. Do you know what year it took place - I could look it up.

Pensive, yes I do in someway think Lawrence sees himself in characters often or part of himself. I don't think he is like Bertie but it might be his intellectual, conversational side is somewhat more like Bertie than like Maurice. It was just a thought that he had been called 'Bert' as a young man. I find it equally interesting that Bertrum Russell was actually nicknamed 'Bertie'. That may end up having more significance to the story. Perhaps if indeed Bertie is perceived as gay then he would be totally deficient as a potential lover to Isabel but never do I get the impression that Isabel wants him as a lover, so I don't see the real significance of thinking of Bertie as being gay or just a man who can't connect with others - men or woman - on a deeper level, a 'blood conscious' level.

I want to make this clear. I never said that Isabel desired Bertie in a physical or sexual way. I feel totally sure that she only wanted a 'platonic' relationship with Bertie. Bertie makes up the part that Maurice lacks in verbal communication, conversation, intellect, etc., but Isabel is drawn sexually and in the deep blood conscious connection to her husband, who she most passionately and deeply loves. She wants no other lover but her husband, wh she is dedicated to.

[Janine]

Where is everyone???