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Thread: The Aeneid Discussion Group

  1. #106
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluevictim View Post
    Your feeling is kind of surprising to me because, as far as I can tell, my post above (about my impression that the Homeric epics were deeper and more complex than the Aeneid) was the only time I asserted Homer's superiority in any respect, and in the same post I said that Virgil's portrayal of emotion was more vivid than Homer's. But I'm sure I'm not immune to the lack of awareness of how others perceive me that is so common on the internet, so it's enlightening to hear your impression.
    I'm sorry blue. Sometimes I push the envelope of rudeness. Check out my blog where I ask people if I'm rude. Feel free to tell me.

    This is remarkable indeed, given your take on the main characters in that poem!
    No really, all I've said is that Aeneas is the most three dimensional character I've come across up until the novel. That doesn't mean that it's better than other works.


    Quote Originally Posted by bluevictim View Post
    I think it's interesting to compare Aeneas' behavior in Book 2 with Hector's behavior in the Iliad.

    Both of them faced the decision of whether to do the heroic thing -- fight and risk death, or to do the prudent thing (prudent both for themselves and their country) -- escape the immediate danger. And both of them were appealed to by their close relations to do the prudent thing.

    In Book 22 of the Iliad, the Trojans were being routed by the Greeks and Achilles was coming after Hector. All the Trojans were taking refuge in the city walls, except Hector, who waited outside to meet Achilles in combat. Hector's father and mother each make a long, passionate speech begging Hector to take refuge in the walls. Earlier, when he left the fighting for a quick errand in the city, his wife had begged him to stay in the city rather than to go out to the fighting. Hector ignores all of these pleas and fights Achilles, partly out of guilt because the rout was a result of a decision made by Hector, against the advice of Polydamas, to stay out in the plain. This results in his death and the desecration of his body by Achilles, and, with Hector's death, all hope for Troy (and Hector's family) is lost.

    Aeneas faces a similar situation in Book 2 of the Aeneid. The Greeks are overwhelming the Trojans, and Aeneas must decide whether to heroically make a suicidal last stand against the Greeks or to abandon Troy and run for the hills. He also received appeals to get out of harm's way, from Hector, his mother, and his wife. Unlike Hector, Aeneas dutifully obeys the appeals and makes his escape from Troy, thus saving his family (except his wife) and preserving the Trojan race.

    The correspondence between the two scenarios is far from perfect (an important difference is that Aeneas is commanded to escape by dead spirits and a goddess, unlike the living mortals that were pleading with Hector), but the comparison brings out one of the main themes of the Aeneid -- the conflicting demands of individual emotions and the good of the whole. As an epic celebrating the new empire of Augustus, the good of the whole consistently wins out in the Aeneid, but part of the genius of Virgil is that the demands of individuals are never trivially dismissed. I feel it is very easy to identify with Aeneas' desire to make one last courageous stand and die defending Troy. It seems that Virgil is aware of this, and he goes to great lengths to justify what could be construed as Aeneas' cowardice. In fact, it almost seems like the desire to justify Aeneas' actions was too conspicuous (Hector's ghost, the goddess Venus, the flame on Iulus' head, a sacred thundering meteor, Creusa's ghost -- ok! ok! we get it already -- it's Aeneas' destiny to run away).
    Very good comparison. At some point I was going to bring up that the Romans favorite character from Homer was Hector. Achilles was admired too, but Achilles was too self centered for Roman values. It was always about himself, and the Roman military absolutely discouraged that. Let me also say that Odysseus was actually hated by the Romans. Where are Odysseus's men? Lost, dead. If a Roman commander came back from war or battle without his men, he would have been disgraced and made to commit suicide. In fact he would not have come back alone. He would have fallen on his sword at the battle's end. No, Odysseus coming back to his home alone did not sit well with the Romans. Plus Odysseus was crafty and sneaky, and that too was seen as unRoman. I bring that up because in many respects, Aeneas stands in contradistinction to Odysseus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love View Post
    You are not; you love controversy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    I didn't think that that was just thrown in there for justification. It's there to portray Aeneas' link to the divine. It's not just that Aeneas is loyal to the group, but he's also following the advice of the gods. You're right that Aeneas is different from Hector in that he's more community-minded.
    Did I say that? They're both community minded. I do see more religion and piety in Aeneas. I don't recall Hector praying to the gods. He may have. But they are quite similar in many respects.

    The reason that Aeneas gives such importance to community, though, has little to do with the people themselves. It has more to do with the fact that this group of Trojans is somehow divinely favored. Obviously, Aeneas does have a strong attachment to these people--they're kith and kin after all. But, it seems like the main reason he's willing to die for them is because they're on this god-inspired mission to Rome. Often, Aeneas completely ignores the wishes of the other Trojans because they clash with Aeneas' spiritual plan for his people.
    Interesting take. They're kind of interlinked. I don't know if one could separate the two issues apart.

    In Book IV we'll see that Aeneas' crew would have been happy enough to party in Carthage, but, no, Aeneas has to haul up the anchor and sail to the other side of the known world. This will happen a few times. None of this is to say that Aeneas is callous to the needs of the Trojans, but I do think that it's important to remember that his goals are divine--and not social--in origin.
    Good points. Now you have e thinking. But Aeneas is the leader and the men need to follow.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

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  2. #107
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I guess I should push the discussion forward. Sorry if I've been dragging my feet. I'm involved two other discussions (DH Lawrence short story thread and the book of the month forum, which happens to be The Name of the Rose) so i've had to split my reading time up and my time to post serious threads.

    A couple of interesting points about Book III, but I'll only get to one of them in this post. Book III is the travel log from the evacuation of Troy to landing on Carthege's shores. I'm not sure what the time span is, but i take it to be years. There are several stops, all looking for a homeland. There's the stop in Thrace where they find they find Polydorus, the youngest son of Priam, who was treacherously slain. Again we see Aeneas making right with the gods by giving him a proper burial. After a few other stops they land at Buthrotum, north of Greece, where they meet Helenus, one of Priam's sons that survived and Adromache, Hector's wife, who is now married to Helenus. She recounts the travails of her life and how she ended up there. Two things are interesting here. One, we see the sufferring again that the Trojans endured. This is a book of suffering all around, not just Aeneas. Even Achilles's son finds his tragic fate. The second thing is how a second Troy has been established. After Andromach has finished telling her history and she asks a bunch of questions to Aeneas, Aeneas narrates the following:
    "A torrent of questions--weeping futile tears,
    she sobs her long lament as Priam's warrior son,
    Heleuns, comes from the walls with full cortege.
    Recognizing his kin, he gladly leads us home,
    each word of welcome breaking through his tears.
    And as I walk, I recognize a little Troy,
    a miniature, mimicking our great Trojan towers,
    and a dried-up brook they call the river Xanthus,
    and I put my arms around a a cutdown Scaean Gate.
    And all my Trojans join me,
    drinking deep of a Trojan's city welcome.
    The King ushered us into generous colonnades,
    in the heart of the court we offered Bachus wine
    and feasted from golden plates all cups held high.
    (l. 409-422)
    A second Troy, a new homeland already established. So why does Aeneas and his men feel the need to move on? Obviously this would have been tempting. But unlike with Dido and in Carthege, the temptation is not dramatised. The will of the gods is prophetised and they must move on. The very next stanza, Aeneas asks Helnus for advice:
    "Now time wears on, day in, day out, and the breezes
    lure our sails, a Southwind rippling in our canvas.
    So i approached the prophet-king with questions:
    'Son of Troy and seer of the gods, you know the will
    of Phoebus Apollo, know his Clarian tripods and his laurel,
    know the stars, the cries of birds, the omens quick on the wing.
    Please, tell me--all the signs foretold me a happy voyage,
    yes, and the will of all the gods impels me now
    to sail for Italy, seek that far off land.
    The Harpy Calaeno alone fortold a monstrous sign,
    chanting out the unspeakable--withering wrath to come
    and the ghostly pangs of famine. What dangers, tell me,
    to steer away from first? What course to set
    to master these ordeals?
    (l. 423-436)
    Helenus who is a seer, can only tell him a few events of the future and is forbidden to fully tell completely. But here is an interesting opening section of Helenus's speech:
    'Son of the goddess, surely proof is clear,
    the highest sanctions shine upon your voyage.
    So the King of the Gods has sorted out your fate,
    so rolls your life, as the world rolls through its changes.
    (l. 443-6)
    The god's are with Aeneas, even if they throw obstacles in his way. One feels it's because of Aeneas's piety, his religious respect and fullfillment at every turn. I don't think there's an incident in the epic where Aeneas doesn't perform his religious obligations.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #108
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I apologize for being so tardy on this thread. I've been balancing a lot of things, a busy work schedule, a busy home schedule, and a busy lit et schedule, between other reads and writing for the recent poetry contest. My time has been squeezed.

    But here's the other point I wanted to highlight from Book III. In the course of the travels, Aeneas lands in Sicily and encounters a Greek from Ulysses's men who had accidentally been left behind, a fellow by the name Achaemenides. He is desparete and begs the Trojans to take him. He says,
    "I beg you, Trojans, beg by the stars, the gods above,
    the clear bright air we breath--sail me off and away!
    Anywhere, any land you please, that's all I want.
    I am, I confess, a man from the Greek fleets,
    I admit, I fought to seize your household gods.
    For that, if my crime against you is so whicked,
    rip me to bits and fling the bits in the sea,
    plunge me into the depths! If die I must,
    death at the hands of men will be a joy!"

    "With that,
    he clutched my knees and kneeling, groveling, clung fast.
    We press him hard--who is he? Who are his parents?
    What rough fortune has driven him to despair?
    Father Anchises, barely pausing, gives the man his hand
    and the friendly gesture lifts the stranger's spirits.
    Setting his fears aside, he starts out with his story:
    Two things are important here. First this man parallels the same man who helped bring down Troy, Sinon, who had apperently been left behind in Troy while the treacherous Greeks hid in the horse. Achaemenides can be another treacherous Greek. But the compassion of the Trojans, especially that of Father Anchises, helps the man despite (a) being of the people who destroyed their homeland and (b) despite the possiblilty of this being another treacherous trap. This certainly suggests the Christian compassion that would make this epic so important to the subsequent Christian culture. And Achaemenides returns the compassion later by helping them first escape Polyphemus, the cyclops, but also by helping them navigate through Scylla and Charybdis.

    The second significance to the Achaemenides episode is that it also parallels the epic's conclusion at the end of Book XII. There Turnus in the same manner, clutching Aeneas's knees, asks for mercy. But there Aeneas in contrast (and this is one of the reasons why I say he's so three dimensional) impulsively does not grant mercy. This situation with Achaemenides is clearly a foreshadow and contrasting scene.

    Now onto the fabulous Book IV, f anyone cares.
    Last edited by Virgil; 03-02-2008 at 02:19 AM.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  4. #109
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Two things are important here. First this man parallels the same man who helped bring down Troy, Sinon, who had apperently been left behind in Troy while the treacherous Greeks hid in the horse. Achaemenides can be another treacherous Greek. But the compassion of the Trojans, especially that of Father Anchises, helps the man despite (a) being of the people who destroyed their homeland and (b) despite the possiblilty of this being another treacherous trap. This certainly suggests the Christian compassion that would make this epic so important to the subsequent Christian culture. And Achaemenides returns the compassion later by helping them first escape Polyphemus, the cyclops, but also by helping them navigate through Scylla and Charybdis.
    Aeneas certainly is kind-hearted for an epic hero. I suppose that's what creates the ever-recurring conflict between the generous thing that Aeneas could do and the god-ordained "right" thing to do. It's sort of odd that he would actually be allowed to act compassionately here when he's so often tormented in other cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    The second significance to the Achaemenides episode is that it also parallels the epic's conclusion at the end of Book XII. There Turnus in the same manner, clutching Aeneas's knees, asks for mercy. But there Aeneas in contrast (and this is one of the reasons why I say he's so three dimensional) impulsively does not grant mercy. This situation with Achaemenides is clearly a foreshadow and contrasting scene.
    Well, the later episode with Turnus might be a little different. We'll have to talk about it when we get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Now onto the fabulous Book IV,
    Good, Book IV is one the better ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    if anyone cares.
    I think it was just Book III may have bored us. There isn't much there.
    Last edited by Quark; 03-02-2008 at 01:40 PM.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  5. #110
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Aeneas certainly is kind-hearted for an epic hero. I suppose that's what creates the ever-recurring conflict between the generous thing that Aeneas could do and the god-ordained "right" thing to do. It's sort of odd that he would actually be allowed to act compassionately here when he's so often tormented in other cases.
    Yes I agree.

    Well, the later episode with Turnus might be a little different. We'll have to talk about it when we get there.
    That's what I was thinking.

    Good, Book IV is one the better ones.
    A great one. Glad someone is still with me.

    I think it was just Book III may have bored us. There isn't much there.
    I liked Book III. It had a lot of good short scenes, all condensed though. I didn't even mention the passing of Aeneas's father. And some good poetry in there too.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  6. #111
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Virgil, do you want to post an intro to Book IV? Or can I just blurt something out to start the discussion?
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  7. #112
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    If I may, I'd like to address, some of Virgil's influences. A great deal has been made up to now of Homer and the effect of either the Iliad or the Odyssey on Virgil's work. I thought that Apollonius' Argonautica went a bit farther, but there were so many omitted that I just had to chime in. Now, I could say that Gilgamesh was a possible influence. It's possible. A demi-god hero founds a city, struggles with monsters, and journeys to a land beyond death. Or I could mention the myth of Er from book X of Plato's Republic, with it's vision of the afterlife. There's something to be said about Virgil imitating Theocritus in his Eclogues, or Hesiod in his Georgics; but what I'd rather talk about is placing the Aeneid in the genre of war narratives contemporary with it's time. Specifically, I'd like to talk about Book II, which is far and away my favorite part of the epic.

    the defenders
    Wrenched out upperworks and rooftiles: these
    For missiles, as they saw the end, preparing
    To fight back even on the edge of death.
    And gilded beams, ancestral ornaments,
    They rolled down on the heads below.
    -lines 584-589 Aeneid, Fitzgerald translation

    In this excerpt, the defenders have moved beyond a structured, logical warfare. They've thrown their spears, broken their swords, fire is raging all around them, and they are grasping random missiles that come to hand in a vain attempt to keep the enemy back. There is an air of panic, of desperation, of fierce struggle and minute concrete details in this book which I think argues for either first hand or second hand experience of warfare. This isn't the usual, so and so stabbed so and so who bit the dust, and rosy fingered dawn blah blah blah. This is very specific. Just before this passage, we are treated to an example of a the Greek soldiers arraying their shields in a tortoise shell fashion, one atop the other, a formation riot police use to this day. I think that Virgil would have had ample opportunity to either see or hear about these sorts of things as warfare was so common in his day. Virgil would have lived through Actium. Before that he would have witnessed Octavian and company battling Brutus and Cassius. Before that there was the civil war with Pompey and Caesar. Speaking of which, Caesar would have published his narrative of the Gallic War:

    The enemy being alarmed by the suddenness of the attack, were dislodged from the wall and towers, and drew up, in form of a wedge, in the market-place and the open streets, with this intention that, if an attack should be made on any side, they should fight with their line drawn up to receive it. When they saw no one descending to the level ground, and the enemy extending themselves along the entire wall in every direction, fearing lest every hope of flight should be cut off, they cast away their arms, and sought, without stopping, the most remote parts of the town. A part was then slain by the infantry when they were crowding upon one another in the narrow passage of the gates; and a part having got without the gates, were cut to pieces by the cavalry: nor was there one who was anxious for the plunder. Thus, being excited by the massacre at Genabum and the fatigue of the siege, they spared neither those worn out with years, women, or children. Finally, out of all that number, which amounted to about forty thousand, scarcely eight hundred, who fled from the town when they heard the first alarm, reached Vercingetorix in safety -The Gallic War, Book VII, Ch. 28 Translated by W. A. McDevitte and W. S. Bohn

    Not to mention that the history books of Livy were just coming into fashion at this time, and there you can find both descriptions of bloody battles and admiration for a worthy opponent. Livy's desriptions of Hannibal and Carthage would have been on the lips of every well read Roman elite of Virgil's time, and I might add that Livy's history also stretches from the foundation of Rome to events clear up to his own time. You can see a lot of Roman's trying to do the same thing, glorifying the state and codifying it's history, trying to work out an official line now that they were the masters of the universe. Something similar is going on in American culture where there's this obsession with writing the Great American novel that's supposed to accurately depict and encapsulate the American experience. But however good historical accounts of conflicts can be, they tend to be written in the third person, and somewhat removed from the scene of action and energy. You don't get the same charge as you would from Aeneas' first person version. This perspective, along with the concrete details, really helps the readers feel like they're there, all this is actually happening, until the supernatural stuff starts breaking that fourth wall.

    ,,,Pompeius you were first of all my friends,
    With you we saw the slow days to their ends,
    And crowned our shining hair,
    Scenting the Syrian air.
    With you I felt Philippi, the swift flight,
    The shield I flung away in the lost fight,
    Smashed valor, brave mouths found
    Biting the dirty ground.
    Swift Mercury had wrapped me in dark air
    And bore me through the enemy full of fear:
    But the wave sucked you in
    To the storms of war again...
    -Book 2, Ode 7 of Horaces Odes translated by Peter Levi

    What's really weird here is that Horace was actually at the battle of Philippi, where Octavians forces crushed Brutus, fighting on Brutus' side. He's dealing with events from his personal history and then injecting the supernatural convention, possibly as a joke. Horace's friend has to slug it out, but Horace himself escapes in a cloud. In the Iliad Aeneas also is shrouded and rescued from Diomedes, first by Aphrodite his mother, and then by Apollo. This may be where the convention starts. I might also point out that Horace was friends with Virgil. He wrote about him and wrote to him, so they might have compared notes on this sort of thing. As often as people compare Fitzgerald and Hemingway, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the influence Horace might have had on Virgil.

  8. #113
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Interesting post Mortal. I'm sure like most Romans Virgil would have been familiar with actual battle. I'm aware that Horace actually backed the Brutus conspirators, but I'm not sure what were Virgil's sympathies during the civil wars.

    I would have to say I'm skeptical that Virgil was familiar with Gilgamesh. I am not aware there was a translation available to the classical world. I would even bet there were not even aware of its existance.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

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  9. #114
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    I'm aware that the Gilgamesh influence would be a stretch, and that if there were any it probably wouldn't have been direct. I was just throwing something out there. I didn't mean that Virgil would have read Gilgamesh directly, but Rome did trade with the Persians and the Parthians, where the story would have been known; so I figure elements of the culture could have been transplanted to Roman soil, the way we find distorted tales of The Odyssey in the Arabian Nights.

    Rome was a much less homogeneous place in Virgil's time than the Roman's themselves like to make out. Aside from the trade, they had slaves of every nation, which were often instructed with educating Roman children. I figure rich Roman's might have picked up a little multi-culturalism from their nannies the way rich American children are frequently exposed to hispanic culture today. There's the Greek influence, which the Roman's proudly admit to, but what about the Etruscan culture that was in Italy before the Romans? I've heard that Rome was actually founded by Etruscans before it was taken over by the Latins and The Aeneid is just a whitewash to cover up the Roman's true past. No doubt, the Etruscan's had stories and rituals which would have been assimilated into Roman culture, and whether they are present in the Aeneid I do not know.

    Another influence not often cited would have been Quintus Ennius, the father of Roman poetry. His poetry was the standard educational text for Roman children before Virgil came along, and so no doubt Virgil would have been aware of him. Ennius wrote an epic called The Annals which covered the history of the Roman people from the mythical fall of Troy down to the time of Cato the Elder. What I'm getting at is that Virgil wrote in a number of traditions, with any number of obvious, and sometimes subtle influences on his work.

  10. #115
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Glad you're joining this discussion Mortal. You bring up good points.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  11. #116
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Oh this is so sad. Thanks to Quasi for directing me to this. Robert Fagles, the translator of The Aeneid version i've been using has passed away. From the New York Times:

    Robert Fagles, Translator of the Classics, Dies at 74
    By CHARLES McGRATH

    Published: March 29, 2008
    Robert Fagles, the renowned translator of Latin and Greek whose versions of Homer and Virgil were unlikely best sellers and became fixtures on classroom reading lists, died on Wednesday at his home in Princeton, N.J., where he was an emeritus professor at Princeton University. He was 74.

    Mr. Fagles translated Aeschylus and Sophocles, among other authors, but he is most famous for his versions of “The Iliad,” published in 1990; “The Odyssey,” in 1996; and “The Aeneid,” which came out in 2006. All were published by Viking.

    He is one of very few translators to have taken on all three of the great classical epics — something that not even Pope attempted — and all three have sold millions of copies, both in print and in audio versions narrated by Derek Jacobi, Ian McKellen and Simon Callow.

    Their success was due largely to Mr. Fagles’s gifts as a writer. He was not an exactingly literal translator but rather one who sought to reinterpret the classics in a contemporary idiom. He once compared his job to writing Braille for the blind, and said that he imagined in a generation or two that someone would have to come along and re-Braille it.

    While faithful to the spirit and intent of the original, his translations were remarkable for their narrative energy and verve. His “Iliad” and “Odyssey” had a Homeric swagger, said the poet Paul Muldoon, a colleague at Princeton, who also compared Mr. Fagles’s epic vision to that of film directors like Sergio Leone and Sam Peckinpah.

    His version of Virgil’s “Aeneid,” for example, has a natural, unforced syntax and language that are at once heightened and colloquial as he describes the Trojan horse being pulled into the city:

    We breach our own ramparts, fling our defenses open,
    all pitch into the work. Smooth running rollers
    we wheel beneath its hoofs, and heavy hempen ropes
    we bind around its neck, and teeming with men-at-arms
    the huge deadly engine climbs our city walls.

    Robert Fagles was born in Philadelphia on Sept. 11, 1933. His father, a lawyer, died when Mr. Fagles was 14, an event that he later said made him particularly susceptible to the persistent father-son theme in classical literature. He was reared by his mother, who was trained as an architect but who never became a practicing one.

    His high school, Lower Merion, in Ardmore, Pa., offered Latin, but Mr. Fagles took German, because the German teacher was popular. He did not become interested in the classics until his freshman year, in 1952, at Amherst College, where he began as a pre-med student and later switched to English. He studied Latin and Greek on the side at Amherst — “smuggling it in,” he later said — and did the same at the Yale Graduate School, where he got his Ph.D. in English in 1959.

    One of his classics teachers at Yale was Bernard Knox, who became a lifelong friend and who wrote introductions to Mr. Fagles’s “Iliad,” “Odyssey” and “Aeneid.”

    After teaching at Yale for a year, Mr. Fagles joined the faculty at Princeton as an English teacher in 1960 and remained at Princeton until he retired, in 2002. He was an immensely popular teacher and also the creator and longtime head of the university’s department of comparative literature. In June the university awarded him an honorary doctorate.

    In addition to his wife, Mr. Fagles is survived by two daughters, Katya, of Randolph, N.J., and Nina, of Hampden, Me., and three grandchildren.

    Mr. Fagles said he had never planned to tackle the big three of classical literature. He began by setting himself some smallish tasks of translation, just as an exercise. His first published translation, of the Greek poet Bacchylides, came out in 1961, and it was followed by versions of “The Oresteia,” by Aeschylus, and of Sophocles’ three Theban plays (“Antigone,” “Oedipus the King” and “Oedipus at Colonus”) before he felt ready to take on the epics. To get through them, he remarked later, required a “lot of nerve and a lot of luck.”

    He also said he couldn’t decide which of the epics was his favorite. Some days were Iliadic, he said — you felt you were in a war — and some were more like the Odyssey, when all you wanted to do was go home.

    But “The Aeneid,” he said, had proved to be unexpectedly timely and relevant, describing it as “a tale of exhortation.”

    “It says that if you depart from the civilized, then you become a murderer,” he said in an interview with The New York Times in 2006. “The price of empire is very steep, but Virgil shows how it is to be earned, if it’s to be earned at all. The poem can be read as an exhortation for us to behave ourselves, which is a horse of relevance that ought to be ridden.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/29/bo...ks&oref=slogin
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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    Need some assistance

    I am actually a student and I am writing a paper on the Aeneid; I am kind of lost and do not know where to begin, the reading is difficult for me. I am writing on the themes of Love and Empire in the Aeneid. What should I concentrate on exactly? I am not exactly sure where to begin, I understand the story, but not sure about the approach. You guys seem to have a much deeper understanding than me. Anything you can tell me about this will help, thank you.

  13. #118
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryi5005 View Post
    I am actually a student and I am writing a paper on the Aeneid; I am kind of lost and do not know where to begin, the reading is difficult for me. I am writing on the themes of Love and Empire in the Aeneid. What should I concentrate on exactly? I am not exactly sure where to begin, I understand the story, but not sure about the approach. You guys seem to have a much deeper understanding than me. Anything you can tell me about this will help, thank you.
    No one here is going to write the paper for you. And no one is going to read the epic for you. I think within this thread there are enough ideas to stimulate a thesis for a paper. If you have a specific question I'll be glad to try to answer it. But you have to start.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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    You know what, I never asked for anybody to write a paper for me, I just asked for some help on a specific topic. {edit} I have no questions for you, why would you want to do somebody's homework? My assignment asks a specfic question. Do you understand that I can get everything on Cliffnotes for my assignment? The purpose of my asking for help was to talk about it, which helps me to better understand. I can find the answer to the question, but that is not the point. I just want to see how far I can push this logically and be consistent in my analysis, have somebody take a look at my musings. Though, I do not need to speak to someone who makes baseless assumptions. Disregard my message and continue with your thread.
    Last edited by Scheherazade; 04-09-2008 at 07:56 PM. Reason: inflammatory remarks

  15. #120
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryi5005 View Post
    You know what, I never asked for anybody to write a paper for me, I just asked for some help on a specific topic. {edit} I have no questions for you, why would you want to do somebody's homework? My assignment asks a specfic question. Do you understand that I can get everything on Cliffnotes for my assignment? The purpose of my asking for help was to talk about it, which helps me to better understand. I can find the answer to the question, but that is not the point. I just want to see how far I can push this logically and be consistent in my analysis, have somebody take a look at my musings. Though, I do not need to speak to someone who makes baseless assumptions. Disregard my message and continue with your thread.
    OK, what are your musings? The themes of Love and Empire are too big for a small paper. What specifically is your thesis sentence. Or perhaps you can copy your opening paragraph. I'll then be happy to comment on it and discuss it with you.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

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