February / Italy Reading: The Name of the Rose

[Dark Muse]

Yes I would say that the first one is most likely Romanesque, becasue the carving is not quite as intricate, and it has more of a rounded arch, than a pointed arch

[Niamh]

yeah thats what i was thinking....

[Virgil]

I asked this before - does the fact that Arthur Connon-Doyle also wrote the book "The White Company" tie into this novel at all? It is based on Medieval England during the 100 Years War. If you read the beginning paragraphs of that novel, you will note that a monk had a illicit affair with a woman and is expelled, exiled from the monastery. I read the novel a few years ago, but I found it curious now, that Eco is writing this novel set in a monastary and one woman has been prominently involved in the plot. I wondered about the combination of Holmes stories and this one, and if the two contributed to an influence for Eco.

Janine, I don't think anyone has the answer to that. I don't think many of us have read The White Company. But it is an interesting relationship you point out, and given that Conan Doyle is important to the theme of the novel, it is quite possible.

This might be a lame question, but I finished listening to the audiotapes and have an idea of the story now and the ideas behind it. I definitely need now to read the novel, but the audiotapes were a good introduction and aid to a better understanding of what I will read in greater depth. I do find the book quite fascinating in the aspect of influences and riddles, mysteries, symbols, images, art, etc.

I think it's a great book.

[Janine]

Janine, I don't think anyone has the answer to that. I don't think many of us have read The White Company. But it is an interesting relationship you point out, and given that Conan Doyle is important to the theme of the novel, it is quite possible.

Thanks Virgil, for addressing my question. It is funny how I came about reading "The White Company"...I was simply browsing through my collected works of Doyle one day and started to read chapter one...curiosity grabbed me; before I knew it I was totally captivated. I marveled at the fact, I had not previously known that Doyle wrote about Medieval times. The book is not without it's humor, also. I loved the way it was written and I am surprised to find out not many people have read it or even know of it. Surely Eco must have.

I think it's a great book.

No doubt it is. I believe so, if you say so. I need to get into the real meat of the actual text and not just listen to the lines being narrated; although, I admit, this audiobook was very well done. It is an abridged version unfortunately. Maybe ideal would be to read the book, at my own pace; then relisten to the tapes. It would be good to see the film version, as well.

DM and Nimah, I think those are more Romanesque being rounded as DM pointed out, Gothic would be pointed at the top.

[Niamh]

Yes, i'd kind of mentioned that in my post....

The last one definitely is. I'm not sure about the first one, i think its romanesque from the curve at the top of the tymphanum, but the second one is Gothic. The west facade of Chartres Cathedral is amazing at night time. All lit up. I really like the Tymphanum at Autun Cathedral. The images are really grotesques, and scary. I'm sure any person walking up to the west facade of that cathedral would be terrified at the sight of it. In that sense you can almost imaging the terror Adso was feeling upon looking at the tymphanum of the church in the book.

[Virgil]

Thanks Virgil, for addressing my question. It is funny how I came about reading "The White Company"...I was simply browsing through my collected works of Doyle one day and started to read chapter one...curiosity grabbed me; before I knew it I was totally captivated. I marveled at the fact, I had not previously known that Doyle wrote about Medieval times. The book is not without it's humor, also. I loved the way it was written and I am surprised to find out not many people have read it or even know of it. Surely Eco must have.

The only Dolye I've ever read is Sherlock Holmes related. But he has a great reputation as a writer of many things. Unfortunately he's only remembered today for Sherlock.

No doubt it is. I believe so, if you say so. I need to get into the real meat of the actual text and not just listen to the lines being narrated; although, I admit, this audiobook was very well done. It is an abridged version unfortunately. Maybe ideal would be to read the book, at my own pace; then relisten to the tapes. It would be good to see the film version, as well.

I love audio tapes. I've written about that elsewhere. They make reading along a pleasure. I think most are well done.

[Petrarch's Love]

Niamh, thanks for posting the pictures from the Book of Kells. I have an art book of the Book of Kells; I should look at it more closely today. Interesting dual images and illuminations.

Petrarch, those images are amazing and to think they are from that time period. Thanks for posting them.
I have a question for you. I read Arthur Connon-Doyle's "The White Company" a few years ago; as you must know it,
"A historical novel of Knights and Chivalry set during the Hundred Years War." I wondered how this might tie in with Eco's book? The second paragraph in the story, mentions an abbey and monks.
At the time I read the book, I was amazed to discover that Doyle had written this type of literature, and was quite well-known for it. I would assume this plays into this creative mixture in Eco's book, going back to those sources that inspired him.

Hi Janine--Conan Doyle did indeed write a lot of historical fiction. He aspired to be something like the next Walter Scott, and was always deeply disappointed that no one was much interested in his historical fiction. They just wanted to read Holmes stories, which both puzzled and infuriated him. I haven't read any of Conan Doyle's historical fiction since back in High School and I can't remember the White Company well enough to speak to the possible influences on Eco. It's an interesting idea though that Eco may have been thinking of other Conan Doyle works. Certainly Eco's background as a Medieval scholar would have to be the primary impetus for the setting of The Name of the Rose, but it would be intriguing to see if there are some ways that Conan Doyle's work influenced Eco's portrayal of the period.

[Janine]

Hi Janine--Conan Doyle did indeed write a lot of historical fiction. He aspired to be something like the next Walter Scott, and was always deeply disappointed that no one was much interested in his historical fiction. They just wanted to read Holmes stories, which both puzzled and infuriated him. I haven't read any of Conan Doyle's historical fiction since back in High School and I can't remember the White Company well enough to speak to the possible influences on Eco. It's an interesting idea though that Eco may have been thinking of other Conan Doyle works. Certainly Eco's background as a Medieval scholar would have to be the primary impetus for the setting of The Name of the Rose, but it would be intriguing to see if there are some ways that Conan Doyle's work influenced Eco's portrayal of the period.

Petrarch, thanks for taking the time to talk about this idea and possibility. I thought you, of all people, might have a better insight into the connection and I am glad you do know of Doyle's other works, besides Sherlock Holmes tales. It is interesting you should mention Scott, because as I was reading "The White Company" I thought there was a similiarity to Sir Walter Scott's novels. I was so amazed to find that Conon Doyle had written something, other than mystery stories involving the notorious Sherlock Holmes. I don't know of anyone else who has read the book or any other of his historical fiction. I read online that these had fallen out of popularity and yet, I thought TWC was quite witty and well written. I will have to see what else I can find out about the novel in connection to Eco's thinking and creativity.

Virgil, yes, these audiobooks can be quite helpful indeed. Unfortunately, I could not listen and read along with this one, since it was abridged, but still I felt it was a good introduction to the story and I enjoyed certain parts very much. The narrator did all the parts as though it was a play; therefore it was quite captivating. I just wish I had had time to listen to it twice but I had to return it tonight to my library. I can always get it out and listen to it again after reading the actual book, which I took from the library tonight. I am intrigued enough to give the book a second chance.

Yes, i'd kind of mentioned that in my post....

Quote:
The last one definitely is. I'm not sure about the first one, i think its romanesque from the curve at the top of the tymphanum, but the second one is Gothic. The west facade of Chartres Cathedral is amazing at night time. All lit up. I really like the Tymphanum at Autun Cathedral. The images are really grotesques, and scary. I'm sure any person walking up to the west facade of that cathedral would be terrified at the sight of it. In that sense you can almost imaging the terror Adso was feeling upon looking at the tymphanum of the church in the book.

Niamh, It is true that you had mentioned both - Romanesque and the Gothic. I was mostly reading part of your statement, that was quoted by someone else, think DM, so I guess I missed this full description and the one encompassing the Gothic arches. Sorry about that. I think it must have been terrifying, as you describe, especially at night.

[Virgil]

Ok, I posted on the description of the church door. Now in contrast is the extended description of the marginalia art that Adelmo paints in the folios. The marginalia description also occurs on the first day in the chapter After Nones. William and Adso meet the scholars and copyists in the scriptorium. Let me copy out the entire important section:

This was a psalter in whose margins was delineated a world reversed with respect to the one to which our senses have accustomed us. As if at the border of a discourse that is by definition the discourse of truth, there proceeded, closely linked to it, through wondrous allusions in aenigmate, a discourse of falsehood on a topsy-turvy universe, in which dogs flee before the hare, and deer hunt the lion. Little bird-feet heads,, animals with human hands on their back, hirsute pates from which feet sprout, zebra-striped dragons, quadrupeds with serpentine necks twisted in a thousand inextricable knots, monkeys with stags’ horns, sirens in the form of fowl with membranous wins, armless men with other human bodies emerging from their backs like humps, and figures with tooth-filled mouths on the belly, humans with horses’ heads, and horses with human legs, fish with birds’ wings and birds with fishtails, monsters with single bodies and double heads or single heads and double bodies, cows with cocks’ tails and butterfly wings, women with heads scaly as a fish’s back, two-headed chimeras interlaced with dragonflies with lizard snouts, centaurs, dragons, elephants, manticores stretched out on tree branches, gryphons whose tails turned into an archer in battle array, diabolical creatures with endless necks, sequences of anthropomorphic animals and zoomorphic dwarfs joined, sometimes on the same page, with scenes of rustic life in which you saw, depicted with such impressive vivacity that the figures seemed alive, all the life of the fields, plowmen, fruit gatherers, harvesters, spinning-women, sowers alongside foxes, and martens armed with crossbows who were scaling the walls of a towered city defended by monkeys. Here an initial letter, bent into an L, in the lower part generated a dragon; there a great V, which began the word “verba,” produced as a natural shoot from its trunk a serpent with a thousand coils, which in turn begot other serpents as leaves and clusters.

And then in another book, the following imagery is described:

The entire margins of the book were invaded by minuscule forms that generated one another, as if by natural expansion, from the terminal scrolls of the splendidly drawn letters: sea sirens, stags in flight, chimeras, armless human torsos that emerged like slugs from the very body of the verses. At one point, as if to continue the triple “Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus” repeated on three different lines, you saw three ferocious figures with human heads, two of which were bent, one downward and one upward, to join in a kiss you would not have hesitated to call immodest if you were not persuaded that a profound, even if not evident, spiritual meaning must surely have justified that illustration at that point.

What is different I think about these images is that they do not fit orthodox structure of the world view. One of the themes of the novel, perhaps the central theme, is that congruent to the orthodox world view is a subversive world view that wants to over turn orthodoxy. These images represent a “world reverse,” a “topsy-turvy universe” stated in the first two sentences I quoted. While the church door represents a conservative outlook, the marginalia suggests a subversive outlook. So much of the novel deals with the nature of heresy and what is heretical. Heresy by its nature is a subversive belief, an inversion of the natural perspective, an undermining of the signs that maintain a common understanding of how the world works.

What is important following the absorption of these images is Adso’s reaction:

As I followed those pages I was torn between silent admiration and laughter, because the illustrations naturally inspired merriment, though they were commenting on holy pages.

And then Adso recalls a verse in his vernacular German, which translates to the following:

Be silent about all wonders;
That earth has risen above heaven—
This you should consider a wonder.

The earth above heaven is the inversion of established mindset. And the reaction of laughter, not only Adso but William and Malachi and the other monks, stands in stark contrast to the stern reaction of God on the throne admonishing. Those that have read the novel know the importance of laughter in the novel. Laughter is the subversive reaction that will take the world of the middle ages into the world of the Renaissance. At least that’s my understanding of this novel.

[Dark Muse]

What is different I think about these images is that they do not fit orthodox structure of the world view. One of the themes of the novel, perhaps the central theme, is that congruent to the orthodox world view is a subversive world view that wants to over turn orthodoxy. These images represent a “world reverse,” a “topsy-turvy universe” stated in the first two sentences I quoted. While the church door represents a conservative outlook, the marginalia suggests a subversive outlook. So much of the novel deals with the nature of heresy and what is heretical. Heresy by its nature is a subversive belief, an inversion of the natural perspective, an undermining of the signs that maintain a common understanding of how the world works.

Very well said, perhaps it is also symbolic of the fact that it seems there are things within the monostatry that may not be quite as orthodox, as they may appear upon the outside without further exmination.

Also sense you mentioned hersey which does play a role, I think William had made some very good statements on the subject, perhpas when I get the oppertunity I shall quote some of the ones that particulary struck me.

[Virgil]

Very well said, perhaps it is also symbolic of the fact that it seems there are things within the monostatry that may not be quite as orthodox, as they may appear upon the outside without further exmination.

Also sense you mentioned hersey which does play a role, I think William had made some very good statements on the subject, perhpas when I get the oppertunity I shall quote some of the ones that particulary struck me.

Thanks DM. Please do.

[Dark Muse]

Here are some passages upon the subject or relating to the subject of heresy that I found interesting within the book, up to the point I have read thus far.

And this is the evil that heresy inflicts on the Christian people, obfuscating idea and inciting all to become inquisitors for their personal benefits.

For what I saw at the abbey then caused me to think that often inquisitors create heretics. And not only in the sense that they imagine heretics where these do not exist, but also the inquisitors repress the heretical putrefaction so vehemently that many are driven to share in it, in their hatred for the judges.

These first two are acutally by Adso.

The next are from a discussion between Ubertino and William though I did not copy the whole discussion, I quoted the highlights and what I thought the most interesting and important parts.

Ubertino:

They gathered at night in a cellar, they took a newborn boy, they threw him from one to the other until he died, of blows or other causes. And he who caught hum alive for the last time, and held him ad he died became the leader of the sect. And the child's body was torn to pieces and mixed with flour.

William:

These things were said, many centuries ago, by the Armenian bishops about the sect of Paulicians. And about the Bogomils

Ubertino:

They lighted candles on Easter night and took maidens into the cellar. Than they extinguished the candles and threw themselves on the maidens, even if they were bound to them by ties of blood. And if from this conjunction a baby was born, the infernal rite was resumed, all around a little jar of wine, which they called a keg, and they became drunk and would cut the baby to pieces and pour its blood into a goblet, and they threw babies on the fires still alive, and they mixed the babies ashes and his blood and drank.

William:

But Michael Psellus wrote this in his book on the workings of devils three hundred years ago!

Under torture you say not only what the inquisitor wants, but also what you imagine might please him, because a bond is established between you and him.

One thing I found interesting is that it was mentioned that Ubertino himself was accused of hersey and yet it seems he is unable to see how perhaps he might be doing the same thing to his enimies in his accusations, that others are trying to do to him.

[Janine]

Those were horrific images (some), but so very interesting Dark Muse. Thanks so much for taking the time to look all of that up and quoting it. I assume you had to retype it all. Good job.

Virgil I read your post also, and found it an interesting two parts of the book. I recall when listening to my tapes I stopped and listened intently to those two sections - the images were so vivid and I love all the art in the novel. Likewise, if you had to type all of that, thanks so much for taking the effort. This is quite interesting and I am getting much out of this discussion on the novel, even though mostly I am just reading along with the posts.

[Dark Muse]

Those were horrific images (some), but so very interesting Dark Muse. Thanks so much for taking the time to look all of that up and quoting it. I assume you had to retype it all. Good job.

Hehe yes I did retype, so I am glad you enjoyed. Indeed some of the images were quite horrific but also much intriguing.

[Virgil]

Very well said, perhaps it is also symbolic of the fact that it seems there are things within the monostatry that may not be quite as orthodox, as they may appear upon the outside without further exmination.

Hehe. Now that I went back to re-read that paragraph, it is very well written if I say so myself. Sometimes the words come out just right. Usually it takes a bit of rewriting (which I don't do for lit net posts) for me to rise to that level of writing, but this time the sentences came out well balanced and with precision and rhythm.