D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

Hehe goodnight

Upon my further reading of the story there is one idea that I noticed and which struck me. It had first come about when I was contemplating over the phrase about the Glory roses in the begining of the story. It seems this story plays with a contrast of fire and ice, if you will.

In my reading, and trying to understand the signifigance of that line, I noticed that the roses are often associated with fire, or the sun in some way, but that near the end of her visit to the garden, the imagery becomes colder, particuarly after she encounters her lover.

I will post some passages and underline the key words.

Outside glory roses hung in the morning sunshine like little bowls of fire tipped up.

She tuned to the garden that shone with sunny flowers around her. She knew the little corner where was the seat beneath the yew tree. Then there was the terrace where a great host of flowers shone and from this two paths went down, one on each side of the garden.

Sometimes a flame-colored, sentless rose would hold her arrested.

Then she wondered over over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice, in the centre. So slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tine terrace all full of roses. They seemed to fill the place, a sunny gay thong. She was shy of them, they were so many and so bright.

I know that Janine had already mentioned and dicussed some of these same passages.

Then later the warmth seems to fade after she encounters her lover.

She sat still in a frozen kind of suspence

"No," she siad, and her heart was cold, her soul kept rigid.

[Janine]

Hehe goodnight

DM, did you notice? I did finally depart and go to bed, too late as usual. I am in need of reform!

Upon my further reading of the story there is one idea that I noticed and which struck me. It had first come about when I was contemplating over the phrase about the Glory roses in the begining of the story. It seems this story plays with a contrast of fire and ice, if you will.

I noticed the Glory roses part, too. It seems to stand out, being capitalized. There is definitely a contrast of fire and ice. I was trying to grasp this earlier and point it out, but not sure I was making myself clear. In Lawrence's book -"Women in Love" this contrast is very prominent and used much. It was very significant to Lawrence. In 'Man Who Loved Islands', Virgil pointed out the significance at the end when it snowed and the island was covered with snow/ice and the other island further south that epitomised the sun in the beginning. Also, in 'Sun' this contrast is used. Interesting to note here with this story, that this idea sprung up in Lawrence's mind so early on in his life and career. If I figured this correctly he would have only been about 21 when he began writing this story; true it was re-written and refined later on, so who really knows unless we were to read his original manuscripts.

In my reading, and trying to understand the signifigance of that line, I noticed that the roses are often associated with fire, or the sun in some way, but that near the end of her visit to the garden, the imagery becomes colder, particuarly after she encounters her lover.

DM, that is a good observation. Yes, it does seem to be so as the story progresses.

I will post some passages and underline the key words.

Virgil taught me that method and it really does give one more insight. Things seem to stand out suddenly, like a revelation. I know it is a bit of dissecting but it really makes Lawrence's imagery more clear to me and the symbolism behind it.

I know that Janine had already mentioned and dicussed some of these same passages.

I did and underlined the words I though to be significant. I was trying to look at the different elements, but good, that you have taken that one step further.

Then later the warmth seems to fade after she encounters her lover.

It seems that it does with the passages you have quoted and it seems to have been hinted at earlier with the rose she pondered over with the green icy center. Interesting, isnt' it, the way this all develops and progresses? It is as though Lawrence is 'painting' a vivid story for us. He was as much a painter of words in my opinion. This is very lush in description and very meaningful at the same time.

[Virgil]

Geez, I might have to read this story a 4th time. You two sure are reading a lot into the story. like now Virgil is seeing the woman 'busty' ...I am dying laughing..

I just got that image in my head. Wasn't Frieda sort of larger than Lawrence, and wasn't she busty?

Virgil,I looked up the timeline and here is what I discovered:



Lawrence would have been 23 in 1908, but if this was early in the year he would have been a mere 22 yrs old.

Then I found these later references in 1913, 6 yrs later, Lawrence would now be 27 in July, turn 28 in September:

[B]

Around this same time, I noted that he also submitted manuscripts for two of the stories we presently discussed:
'The White Stocking' and 'The Shades of Spring'

Then I found this entry:



Then he lists them...
these are the ones we already have discussed:

Thanks Janine. That is helpful. He's relatively young, and it was written prior to The Rainbow but after Sons and Lovers.

[Dark Muse]

It seems that it does with the passages you have quoted and it seems to have been hinted at earlier with the rose she pondered over with the green icy center. Interesting, isnt' it, the way this all develops and progresses? It is as though Lawrence is 'painting' a vivid story for us. He was as much a painter of words in my opinion. This is very lush in description and very meaningful at the same time.

Yes indeed it is quite interesting. At this moment I do not have much time to offer much more of intelligence.

[Janine]

I just got that image in my head. Wasn't Frieda sort of larger than Lawrence, and wasn't she busty?

I was wondering how you were conjuring up this wild image. Here I thought you had been spending too much time in that 'leg' thread.
Yes, that would describe her I believe although she didn't look so robust when she was younger. She looked more delicate and pretty then. Boy, did they both change.

Thanks Janine. That is helpful. He's relatively young, and it was written prior to The Rainbow but after Sons and Lovers.

Yeah, those books are just great, but I have to do all the work! It took me quite a while to look all this up and to type it all out. It is true the story was begun, when he was young, but God knows how many times Lawrence rewrote it. He was known for that. It did seem prominent at the time he was writing "The Rainbow". I don't think that was right before he went to Australia, so I was way off on that assumption. Everyone please forgive me - I make mistakes on the biography, now and then. Good to be able to look all this up in the 'Calender of Events' book.

[Janine]

Yes indeed it is quite interesting. At this moment I do not have much time to offer much more of intelligence.

DM, that is ok, take a break; you posted much and I am sure your brain is aching. Mine is too, and I need to catch up on emails.

[Hira]

Wow, so many posts to catch up on. I've read only a bit though.

Thanks - this site is wonderful. I love this part of England. The photos are so beautiful and evoke the feeling I get from some of Lawrence's writings by the seaside.


Hira, this may answer your question. I found this online today.


You can find the rest of the article here: http://literaryculture.suite101.com/..._cornwall_1916
It is quite interesting and revealing.

Thanks for that! I found that very informative.

I particularly love the line refering to the fondling of a child's hand. That is lovely and so heartfelt an image, one that does indeed transport a person back to their past and their own childhood.

I love that too, her savouring the past, can almost feel the soft velvety petals.

Yes I found that imagery to be interesting, the way in which the roses are descirbed making her almost seem a stanger at a party. It could perhaps be becasue she is likely not the same person she was when she first lived there, as a place always seems strange when a person returns after being away, as they would usually be older and have had difference exeprinces in thier life sense thier first parting of the place.

And it does state later on that "She was not herself"

I do agree with what you say about her not being the same person, and it is as if the roses are relating the story of those past years.

This to me seemed a bit contridictory, considering the uncertaintiy of his situation and the fact that he did not seem confidant in his marraige or his wife's feelings for him, as several times he refers to his concerns that she was unaware of him or ignoring him.

Yes, I could not make sense of it either. It is perhaps the use of contradictions which Janine talked of earlier, and related to the Tree of Hell and the crooked tree in the next paragraph. Self-commiseration, self-suppression mingled with a self-appreciation.

I found this online in E-Notes, I believe; if you notice there are different stages of development in Lawrence's short stories. The last story we discussed was quite different, since it belonged to the last stage of short stories; but according to this online criticism, this story "Shadow in the Rose Garden" belongs to his second stage of short stories (still early); I underlined that reference:

Thank you for that. Its is very helpful.

You're suspicious of the roses? They seemed like they made her genuinely happy, though they do destabilize her marriage. I think they're more representative of her past relationship than her present one, too. She has a rather idealized notion of her previous lover, and her entrance into this flower-strewn garden reads like a fond reminiscence of a time of when her romantic desires weren't blocked by a mediocre husband. The actual appearance of the former lover ruins it, though: just a little too real for her. This leads me to think her thoughts in the garden are half memory and half fantasy. The tension between the two pushed her toward that divided sensation she feels towards the end of the episode. ("It was as if some membrane had been torn in two in her, so that she was not an entity that could think and feel"). You could say that the flowers are part of her problem, but I don't know if you could claim they're hollow and not real. They seem pretty genuine.

I like what you say about it being half-fantasy and half-memory. And as Janine said about how the dead are idealized, how they have their harsh edges smoothed out.

Well my opinion of the woman being what it is, the way I interpted the roses, were reflecting her own shallowness. Not to say the roses were not real, but they are an expression of the fact that her beuaty is only extneral. For she did not to me appear to have much attraction behind her apperance. As the roses are only pretty to look at and to veiw them might bring one joy, but other than that they do not offer much more.

Perhaps its not so much as shallowness of her character but her inability to come out of it, you know there is the red of the roses, the beauty of it, yet there is no point in lingering over them because they have no beauty internally, scentless.

I didn't think badly of either characters, throughout this story. I merely tried to understand them and their relationship and the way they reacted to each other at this particular time. One doesn't know how they act or react to each other on a daily basis. Lawrence usually writes in this manner with some questions at the end of a story, open for our own interpretation, so I did not think it any different of this, than other stories he had written. I can't see that Lawrence would judge either person harshly. In "Sons and Lovers" his father could be a true brut at times, and yet he found times in the book to show his side and lend sympathy to the very human qualities of his character and what made him as he was. I always see this balance in Lawrence's writing, so I could not feel any different about these two very 'human' characters, who I know little about, on a personal level.

Yes, he makes the reader sympathize or see a bit of the other tender side of Morel too. Very human characters, I agree.

Hi Dark Muse, sorry about that, I didn't see you there until I posted just now - we must have posted same time, althought this has taken me awhile to write. My brain is aching. Yes, I agree with what you just posted and this is a excellent idea/thought, also:

Quote by Dark Muse:




I noticed that people in this story view others or themselves within frames - such as mirrors, windows, arches, doorways, etc.

The husband viewing his own image:



I picture the black fly against the pure white dress, another fine contrast. A moment before the woman was referred to as a 'white butterfly' and now another winged insect is used to show the forshadowing...interesting....

I think that was a brilliant post, the one about the colours and the doorways and the windows.

I read those paragraphs keeping in mind what you said about the doorways. And I loved them. How her memories gleam in her mind, how they come to life as she approaches the garden.

[Dark Muse]

Perhaps its not so much as shallowness of her character but her inability to come out of it, you know there is the red of the roses, the beauty of it, yet there is no point in lingering over them because they have no beauty internally, scentless.

That is a good observation

[Janine]

Wow, so many posts to catch up on. I've read only a bit though.

Yeah, we have sure been busy! Take your time reading them....I think DM and I need a bit of a break...

Wow, Hira - what a long thoughful post you wrote. Glad to read it!

Thanks for that! I found that very informative.

Hira, so glad that helped you. I love doing research and I love to share the information I do find. I just wish I could have found more direct references to this particular story online and in my reference books.

I love that too, her savouring the past, can almost feel the soft velvety petals.

Yes, I adored that line...it transports one back to one's own past and therefore, I felt more drawn into the story; it felt more personal to me. With this one line, a certain 'nostalgia' for the past is established.

I do agree with what you say about her not being the same person, and it is as if the roses are relating the story of those past years.

I think we all change, from time to time, or develop or modify our behavior, that we once had. She may just be in a stage now, with her husband, where they are quite at odds and not as they had been, but grown some appart. As they say with married couples, they can fall 'in and out of love', from time to time. I believe that is true. I think when she encounters the ex-lover also, she is not the person she was when, she knew him. Time has passed since then, and she must have changed greatly. Not only is he altered, but in a sense this mirrors the fact that she also is altered. To step back into that dream of the past, is totally unreal - a fantasy. She cannot exist there long, as the roses in bloom will not exist past that season of blooming. I liked and agree with what Dark Muse said about her changing, and combined with what you say about 'the roses are relating the story of those past years'....that is a truly interesting thought; they seem to be talking and also painting her past remembrances.

Yes, I could not make sense of it either. It is perhaps the use of contradictions which Janine talked of earlier, and related to the Tree of Hell and the crooked tree in the next paragraph. Self-commiseration, self-suppression mingled with a self-appreciation.

Hira, in the story was it called 'The Tree of Heaven'? But actually, in the definition online it was then known as 'The Tree of Hell', right? If so, another duality or contrast or contradiction is set up early in the story. Could this be mimicking the way the man views himself or we view him in that first paragraph?

Thank you for that. Its is very helpful.

Glad again this aided you and your understanding of Lawrence.

I like what you say about it being half-fantasy and half-memory. And as Janine said about how the dead are idealized, how they have their harsh edges smoothed out.

Quark's post (which you quoted) is so true and observant. You worded that so well, Quark. I agree with it and the 'half-fantasy, half memory' part especially. Although, the roses and the garden are real, the world of memory is no longer real - only in ones mind. Therefore, when the real world encrouches on the make-believe 'perfect' world, all comes tumbling down in an instant...that membrane within her is torn.

I thought of dead heros and presidents who have been assasinated, when I wrote that part about being 'idealised'. These are more extreme examples, but think of it...how suddenly any flaws they might have had in life, now seem to fall by the wayside...they become 'perfected' in our eyes and minds, by their deaths.

Perhaps its not so much as shallowness of her character but her inability to come out of it, you know there is the red of the roses, the beauty of it, yet there is no point in lingering over them because they have no beauty internally, scentless.

Good point. Also, the roses will fade away or die, but only the blossoms, not the bushes; this seems to symbolise the sense of 'reality' to me' - how 'reality' would encompass all seasons, not just spring and blossoms. This memory she has harboured all these years, is like the rose blooms that will fade in time.

Yes, he makes the reader sympathize or see a bit of the other tender side of Morel too. Very human characters, I agree.

He does do that, from time to time, referring to Morel (the father) in "Sons and Lovers". All of Lawrence's work, as I can see from my reading, seems to show this duality and this searching or struggling for balance. In "Sons and Lovers" Lawrence later admitted he was too harsh to Morel, who does represent his father. It was obvious to his own father, when he read the book, that he was the model and I think he must have felt hurt. Lawrence felt badly about this fact, because even though in that early novel he (represented by Paul) had this unusual closeness to his mother, later on he more fully explores this closeness to woman and this breach between the sexes, so that in some sense Lawrence at times takes a stronger stance against the mother or the woman. In my opinion from further reading, he fluctuates back and forth at times, sometimes favouring the woman and sometimes favouring the man. All of this contrast and friction between sexes, was born from his own parents and their opposite personalities and social differences, and his environment and growing up in this kind of situtation.

I think that was a brilliant post, the one about the colours and the doorways and the windows.

Thanks so much. It took me forever to research and write, so I really appreciate that you read it and found more insight into the story from my post.

I read those paragraphs keeping in mind what you said about the doorways. And I loved them. How her memories gleam in her mind, how they come to life as she approaches the garden.

Yes, and Dark Muse also quoted the glowing doorway part into the garden. That really stood out for both of us. The light is so amazing as we would imagine it, truly luminous and inviting - drawing one into the garden.

[Dark Muse]

I think we all change, from time to time, or develop or modify our behavior, that we once had. She may just be in a stage now, with her husband, where they are quite at odds and not as they had been, but grown some appart. As they say with married couples, they can fall 'in and out of love', from time to time. I believe that is true. I think when she encounters the ex-lover also, she is not the person she was when, she knew him. Time has passed since then, and she must have changed greatly. Not only is he altered, but in a sense this mirrors the fact that she also is altered. To step back into that dream of the past, is totally unreal - a fantasy. She cannot exist there long, as the roses in bloom will not exist past that season of blooming. I liked and agree with what Dark Muse said about her changing, and combined with what you say about 'the roses are relating the story of those past years'....that is a truly interesting thought; they seem to be talking and also painting her past remembrances.

I have also noticed how the woman seems to change within the story itself. This idea came to me in my discussion of the fire and ice imagery, as the woman herself seems to displacy such tendencies.

Though from the very begining there can be felt tension between the husband and wife, the way in which he is always worried that she is ignorning him or unaware of him, and how she keeps him waiting, and is always distracted by her own thoughts, and then sends him away when she wants to go off on her own in stead of spend her time with him.

But even so, there still seems to be some warmth within her at the start of the story.

There is the scene in which it says she leaned against his arm, while they were walking together, and they had exchanged some smiles and laughter between thesmevles while they sat eating together.

But at the end, she has completely changed, and becomes cold to him. When they sat down to have dinner together, this time she would not eat with him, but rather did not touch her food. While they both convserved and ate breakast together, during dinner is says:

She could neither eat nor talk during the meal.

[Janine]

I have also noticed how the woman seems to change within the story itself. This idea came to me in my discussion of the fire and ice imagery, as the woman herself seems to displacy such tendencies.

Though from the very begining there can be felt tension between the husband and wife, the way in which he is always worried that she is ignorning him or unaware of him, and how she keeps him waiting, and is always distracted by her own thoughts, and then sends him away when she wants to go off on her own in stead of spend her time with him.

I think the tension is evident from the beginning, also. To be honest with you, I felt he fretted some about the time and his waiting for her, later she says to him that they planned on meeting for breakfast at 9 (I believe it was 9); then he says she knows (assuming this) that he always rises early and can't sleep past a certain time. Still they had set a time and now he is annoyed; he seems peevish to me and a little clinging of her, possesive. I think he seemed to be 'insecure', if she did not give him her full attention. He interprets that as being ignored or being neglected. I think this clinging makes her want to send him away, from her, for a time - a sort of breather. Someone suggested they both were acting childish and I think this is true to some extend. I think he is pushing full togetherness and she is wanting some time to herself without having to cater to his whims.

But even so, there still seems to be some warmth within her at the start of the story.

There is the scene in which it says she leaned against his arm, while they were walking together, and they had exchanged some smiles and laughter between thesmevles while they sat eating together.

Yes, I think that one part, with the couple walking arm in arm, does show this subtle tenderness in the woman towards her husband and he towards her.

But at the end, she has completely changed, and becomes cold to him. When they sat down to have dinner together, this time she would not eat with him, but rather did not touch her food. While they both convserved and ate breakast together, during dinner is says:

Well, I think this is just a window into a brief time in their lives. Both are in shock and so she clams up and cannot speak. What can she really say to him at this point. His confusion is shutting her out and her broken dream is shutting him out. As these fade and they will eventually things will again change between them and they will be able to talk. Human relationships are very complicated and one does not always act according to logic. I think that many times in Lawrence's works he displays this fact. As the end said it will work it's self out. Who knows what is to come for this couple. I think they need a session with Dr. Phil.

[Dark Muse]

I think the tension is evident from the beginning, also. To be honest with you, I felt he fretted some about the time and his waiting for her, later she says to him that they planned on meeting for breakfast at 9 (I believe it was 9); then he says she knows (assuming this) that he always rises early and can't sleep past a certain time. Still they had set a time and now he is annoyed; he seems peevish to me and a little clinging of her, possesive. I think he seemed to be 'insecure', if she did not give him her full attention. He interprets that as being ignored or being neglected. I think this clinging makes her want to send him away, from her, for a time - a sort of breather. Someone suggested they both were acting childish and I think this is true to some extend. I think he is pushing full togetherness and she is wanting some time to herself without having to cater to his whims.

I did not really get the feeling of clinginess from the husband, but than my sympathy was always drawn more to his side. But it seems as if he had good cause to be insecure. To me it seemed more as if he was a man that loved a woman whom showed little interest or affection for him and that she meerely tolerated him, and that he simply wished she would show some wanting to spend sometime with him.

later she says to him that they planned on meeting for breakfast at 9 (I believe it was 9); then he says she knows (assuming this) that he always rises early and can't sleep past a certain time. Still they had set a time and now he is annoyed

To me this is telling, as if they have been married, they should know each others patterns, and she should know that he does indeed rise early, and even if they had made a set time to meet married couples need not have acutal appointmetns with each other and it seems she was intentionally keeping him waiting when she knew he would already be up and she could have gone done to see him before the agreed time.

And to the end the fact that the story often referes to his "surpressed anger" and saying he always gave way to her, suggests that she has a history of being inconsiderate toward him and so perhaps his being annoyed is well grounded, as this was not just a one time thing, but often she pays him little heed.

[Virgil]

Hey I can't keep up with you guys. How about we do this. There are three critical scenes in the story: a) The woman alone in the rose garden, b) when she meets her old lover, and c) when she and her husband confront each other. Let's look at one at a time. If you've made points on them, you might want to rebring them up. Let's start with the first one. Here's the scene:

She went forward, forgetting the gardener in a moment. Her face became strained, her movements eager. Glancing round, she saw all the windows giving on to the lawn were curtainless and dark. The house had a sterile appearance, as if it were still used, but not inhabited. A shadow seemed to go over her. She went across the lawn towards the garden, through an arch of crimson ramblers, a gate of colour. There beyond lay the soft blue sea with the bay, misty with morning, and the farthest headland of black rock jutting dimly out between blue and blue of the sky and water. Her face began to shine, transfigured with pain and joy. At her feet the garden fell steeply, all a confusion of flowers, and away below was the darkness of tree-tops covering the beck.

She turned to the garden that shone with sunny flowers around her. She knew the little corner where was the seat beneath the yew tree. Then there was the terrace where a great host of flowers shone, and from this, two paths went down, one at each side of the garden. She closed her sunshade and walked slowly among the many flowers. All round were rose bushes, big banks of roses, then roses hanging and tumbling from pillars, or roses balanced on the standard bushes. By the open earth were many other flowers. If she lifted her head, the sea was upraised beyond, and the Cape.

Slowly she went down one path, lingering, like one who has gone back into the past. Suddenly she was touching some heavy crimson roses that were soft as velvet, touching them thoughtfully, without knowing, as a mother sometimes fondles the hand of her child. She leaned slightly forward to catch the scent. Then she wandered on in abstraction. Sometimes a flame-coloured, scentless rose would hold her arrested. She stood gazing at it as if she could not understand it. Again the same softness of intimacy came over her, as she stood before a tumbling heap of pink petals. Then she wondered over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice, in the centre. So, slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tiny terrace all full of roses. They seemed to fill the place, a sunny, gay throng. She was shy of them, they were so many and so bright. They seemed to be conversing and laughing. She felt herself in a strange crowd. It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself. She flushed with excitement. The air was pure scent.

Hastily, she went to a little seat among the white roses, and sat down. Her scarlet sunshade made a hard blot of colour. She sat quite still, feeling her own existence lapse. She was no more than a rose, a rose that could not quite come into blossom, but remained tense. A little fly dropped on her knee, on her white dress. She watched it, as if it had fallen on a rose. She was not herself.

In that first paragragh, we see that a shadow goes over her. The past is coming up on her. We then come to this key sentence: "Her face began to shine, transfigured with pain and joy." Whenever we come to the word "transfigured" in a Lawrence story, we should always pause. This is definitely an early Lawrence work. First, there is no religious connotation to the transguration. It's not the same as a later Lawrence work. Also, the more experienced Lawrence would have saved the word for the peak of the experience, at the height of the emotion. Here it comes in the first paragragh of this little scene.

Lovely is the profusion of roses that Lawrence gives the garden. Roses all over. Crimson is mentioned, red, white, pink. To be honest i can't decipher the significance of the colors, although it does feel like Lawrence is suggesting something.

Then the key section. Notice this from the third paragragh:

Then she wandered on in abstraction. Sometimes a flame-coloured, scentless rose would hold her arrested. She stood gazing at it as if she could not understand it. Again the same softness of intimacy came over her, as she stood before a tumbling heap of pink petals. Then she wondered over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice, in the centre. So, slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tiny terrace all full of roses. They seemed to fill the place, a sunny, gay throng. She was shy of them, they were so many and so bright. They seemed to be conversing and laughing. She felt herself in a strange crowd. It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself. She flushed with excitement. The air was pure scent.

She is in "abstraction." The roses become personified, "conversing and laughing," they created a "crowd." And then "It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself." The abstraction and the carrying her out of herself is what Lawrence calls a loss of ego, her self. The experience is intensified with the personified roses, as if she's in a drugged state. She is living in a state when she felt the most intense, when life was passionate, that past with her lover. Roses are a symbol of idealism. She has idealized the past. there isn't even a mention of the lover here, just the rose that he is symbolized by and rose that she is symbolized by. They are not real people, they are just symbols in her mind. And then we get the last paragragh:

Hastily, she went to a little seat among the white roses, and sat down. Her scarlet sunshade made a hard blot of colour. She sat quite still, feeling her own existence lapse. She was no more than a rose, a rose that could not quite come into blossom, but remained tense. A little fly dropped on her knee, on her white dress. She watched it, as if it had fallen on a rose. She was not herself.

Remember I've said that Lawrence's ideal life is that of a flower. That is what he imagines our souls to be if we are lucky enough to be transfigured. He says here, "She was no more than a rose." But, and this is a big but, "a rose that could not quite come into blossom, but remained tense." She is human. The real world still exists. Real life has to undercut (hehe, sorry about the rose metaphor of cutting ) her idealism.

Let's discuss this for a bit, and then we'll move to the next important scene.

[Janine]

Hey I can't keep up with you guys. How about we do this. There are three critical scenes in the story: a) The woman alone in the rose garden, b) when she meets her old lover, and c) when she and her husband confront each other. Let's look at one at a time. If you've made points on them, you might want to rebring them up. Let's start with the first one. Here's the scene:

I know - we are fast! But glad you are back here now with us. I like the way you broke that down in three sections or critical scenes. Some of what you say next we have discussed but you put your own wording and ideas into it, to expand the ideas, so this is good which follows:

In that first paragragh, we see that a shadow goes over her. The past is coming up on her. We then come to this key sentence: "Her face began to shine, transfigured with pain and joy." Whenever we come to the word "transfigured" in a Lawrence story, we should always pause. This is definitely an early Lawrence work. First, there is no religious connotation to the transguration. It's not the same as a later Lawrence work. Also, the more experienced Lawrence would have saved the word for the peak of the experience, at the height of the emotion. Here it comes in the first paragragh of this little scene.

Virgil, we discussed the 'shadow that goes over her' as a foreshadowing device, but I like the way you term it her 'past'. That is good, the actual shadow is personifying, or representing, her past. I was hoping you would comment on the use of the word 'transfigured' in this particular part of the story - you are right, it is used differently than in Lawrence's later works and it is used prematurely to the real climax of this story. Also, there doesn't seem to be any religious connotation to it, so it did make me wonder, although do you realise that she is in the rector's garden? Why do you suppose L chose the rector's garden, as the location of this garden?

Lovely is the profusion of roses that Lawrence gives the garden. Roses all over. Crimson is mentioned, red, white, pink. To be honest i can't decipher the significance of the colors, although it does feel like Lawrence is suggesting something.

Absolutely - like a poem of flowers. I do think the colors and the various types of roses have significance, but I don't fully have that part figured out, but I did give some opinions on that earlier and so did Dark Muse and Hira.

Then the key section. Notice this from the third paragragh:

She is in "abstraction." The roses become personified, "conversing and laughing," they created a "crowd." And then "It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself." The abstraction and the carrying her out of herself is what Lawrence calls a loss of ego, her self. The experience is intensified with the personified roses, as if she's in a drugged state. She is living in a state when she felt the most intense, when life was passionate, that past with her lover. Roses are a symbol of idealism. She has idealized the past. there isn't even a mention of the lover here, just the rose that he is symbolized by and rose that she is symbolized by. They are not real people, they are just symbols in her mind. And then we get the last paragragh:

Glad to see you further expound on this word "abstraction". I had wondered about that too, and now you made it more clear to me, just what Lawrence is implying or getting at here. I like the idea, of her being outside her own consciousness and in a drugged state, also the intensity of the roses and the atmosphere in the garden - so dreamlike. "She is living in a state when she felt the most intense, when life was passionate, that past with her lover. Roses are a symbol of idealism. She has idealized the past." This is perfect! I did state before, that she had idealised her ex-lover, now that he had died or so she thought him deceased. This is good that she actually idealized her past. I like the comparison of the intensity of the roses to the intensity she once felt in a passionate love relationship. The 'symbols in mind' part is good, too and true as well and directly relate also to the roses. There is a heightened sense of 'awareness' when she is in the garden, whereas apathy seemed to be her prior state, in everyday life.

Remember I've said that Lawrence's ideal life is that of a flower. That is what he imagines our souls to be if we are lucky enough to be transfigured. He says here, "She was no more than a rose." But, and this is a big but, "a rose that could not quite come into blossom, but remained tense." She is human. The real world still exists. Real life has to undercut (hehe, sorry about the rose metaphor of cutting ) her idealism.

I thought of other posts in other stories when you talked about the flower concept. Glad you cleared this up for us. This makes more sense now the way in which you have worded it.

Let's discuss this for a bit, and then we'll move to the next important scene.

Ok - great - fine with me. Good job on this post, V!

[Dark Muse]

In that first paragragh, we see that a shadow goes over her. The past is coming up on her. We then come to this key sentence: "Her face began to shine, transfigured with pain and joy." Whenever we come to the word "transfigured" in a Lawrence story, we should always pause. This is definitely an early Lawrence work. First, there is no religious connotation to the transguration. It's not the same as a later Lawrence work. Also, the more experienced Lawrence would have saved the word for the peak of the experience, at the height of the emotion. Here it comes in the first paragragh of this little scene.

I really like your discussion of the use of the transfiguration here as well as the information provided about Lawrence's use of it. I would agree that the way the idea of transfiguration is used in this story, feels very human, and does not carry any religious connotation behind it. Nice pointing that out.

She is in "abstraction." The roses become personified, "conversing and laughing," they created a "crowd." And then "It exhilarated her, carried her out of herself." The abstraction and the carrying her out of herself is what Lawrence calls a loss of ego, her self. The experience is intensified with the personified roses, as if she's in a drugged state. She is living in a state when she felt the most intense, when life was passionate, that past with her lover. Roses are a symbol of idealism. She has idealized the past. there isn't even a mention of the lover here, just the rose that he is symbolized by and rose that she is symbolized by. They are not real people, they are just symbols in her mind..

I really like the point you made, and the observation about Lawerence's idea of ego, and how it is used in this story, considering the ways in which this concept was discussed in the previous story.

Also, in a way, the way in which the roses are talked about, could almost make them as if they were ghostly aperaitions of people she had once known in the past. The way she refers to them as being a "strange crowd" and makes them seem almost alive here. For she has no real desire to meet with the physical beings of the people she once knew, it is as if the roses represent what she remebers of those people, but they would seem strange to her, sense they are as you mentioned only creations of her own mind, and not the acutal people.