If god is everything, doesn't that make him evil as well as good?

[Redzeppelin]

Anybody else want to try to ''prove'' that an all loving, merciful, and ever beneficent divine father of unparalleled and unmatchable greatness can, somehow, be all knowing and ever present, yet still not know that a Fall would take place in the Garden of Eden so that he would be helpless to stop such a catastrophic event even though he had forecasted such unhappiness tens of thousands of eons before it took place???

For the last time: your position is based on the PRESUMPTION that the future exists, unchanging, to be "known" by God. You cannot prove that assumption. For freedom to exist (for even your words to have been freely chosen) then the future must be indeterminant; that's what a choice does: it renders determined something that was previously undetermined. The future does not exist to be known. Our free will and God's "foreknowledge" interact in this way - until we render an undetermined decision as determined, it doesn't exist to be known.

God knew that His created beings carried the potential to disobey - but He took the risk anyway (love always involves risk); He was not "helpless" - He could have stopped it, but at the cost of violating His creatures' free will - and that would make Him a tyrant on par with Saddam Hussein - because that's what dictators do: they refuse to allow the exercise of freedom that challenges them. God allows us to challenge and reject Him. Our freedom is worth more to God than our happiness. Sorry.

[hellsapoppin]

``you cannot prove that assumption``

First, my challenge was not directed at you.

Second, if anyone wishes to defy logic and common sense by pretending that an ''all knowing and ever present'' god is incapable of preventing troubles of any kind --- a laughable presumption with no basis in reality, especially in view of his own assertions to the contrary in the Bible --- that's up to them. In all my years of discussing this subject with scholars from every walk of like, I have never seen anyone attempt to defy logic in such an absurd fashion. Let's see if anyone else tries to do so.

[kilted exile]

Some theory in relation to the current discussion:

This is from the introduction to my copy of Paradise Lost (2003 Penguin Classics edition which has an introduction by John Leonard. The part I want to discuss can be found in the intro on pages xxvi & xxvii in this edition.) Due to copyright (not to mention time) I cant obviously re-type the entire pages, however, I think this section gives some further explanation of Red's point:

How can Adam & Eve be free when God foresees their every act and speaks of their Fall as a certainty before it has even happened (iii 93-7)? Milton addresses this in De Doctrina Christiana. He there draws a distinction between certainty & necessity. Because God has foreseen the Fall from all eternity, and because his knowledge is infallible, the Fall was always a certainty. But it was not necessitated by any divine decree. It was a free act in the moment of its occurence. God foresaw the Fall, and permitted it, but he did not make it happen. He therefore has every right to hold Adam & Eve responsible for their disobedience.
/SNIP/
So long as Adam & Eve are free to resist Satan's temptation, his act of tempting them does not necessitate their fall. One might even argue that God aids and abets Satan's arrival into paradise for the benign reason that he respects Adam & Eve's freedom, and does not want to censor their experiences

[hellsapoppin]

And as I wrote previously, in most jurisdictions, if you know a crime is going to be commissioned and you sit by and do nothing, then you will held accountable for your inaction.

GUILTY AS CHARGED.

CASE CLOSED.

[Redzeppelin]

And as I wrote previously, in most jurisdictions, if you know a crime is going to be commissioned and you sit by and do nothing, then you will held accountable for your inaction.

GUILTY AS CHARGED.

CASE CLOSED.

Not so fast, Perry Mason. Your logic ignores several important points (some already made that you have never given a satisfactory answer to):

1. You assume that God exists in time the exact same way in which we do.
2. You assume that the future is defined, unchanging, and already exists
to be "known" by God.
3. You ignore statements the Bible makes about God's character that are
clearly in conflict with your assessment of God's character.
4. Believing that the future is defined, unchanging and exists to be known
means that freewill doesn't exist - an odd idea because I assume that
you think you freely have chosen your beliefs and words.

You cannot "put God on trial" as you have and so easily "win" - your case is based upon incomplete information from a source (the Bible) which does not provide the complete set of facts at God's command and likewise your case is also based on numerous misconceptions about the character of God.

How about actually addressing some of these issues before starting the victory celebration?

[hellsapoppin]

Red,

Clearly, you have not read my posts.

I specifically wrote that your god is ''omniscient'' and ''all knowing''. This means he is and will be ever present unlike we humans. I cannot make this more clear.

Since you will not understand what I write I will not address the rest of your note.

[Scheherazade]

W a r n i n g

Further personal comments will lead to thread closure.

[hellsapoppin]

Thank you Scheherazade.

As you can see from above, I specifically referred to the biblical god as ''omniscient'' in post 390 {''ever present''}, yet was accused of saying this was not so. Moreover, I was asked if this god was not merciful,''why are YOU still here?''.

Indeed, it would be best if such distortions and personalizations were not made here.

[Ydfkdy]

Read your bible,that is what they tell me when I wonder about God.No he is not evil,but that is my opinion,he is a forgiving God.Though I do have alot to answer for when judgement day comes cause when I go down I say things I should not and ask why does God hate me,when I should be saying something else.I don't remember it is in this book I am reading,(When Bad Thing's Happen To Good People).Maybe you should check that book out to if you think that will halp if you are sick like me or curiose about God and his way's(idk).

[hellsapoppin]

If I understand you correctly, you have are suffering from illness. First, my hope is that you will enjoy a quick and full recovery. Second, in the New Testament, every time Yahshuah (commonly called ''Jesus'') healed a sick person he said ''thy sins are forgiven''. This means that healing miracles represent the divine forgiveness of sin.

Yahshuah also taught that his ministers could duplicate and surpass his miracles. He did not put any limit or time frame as to this dispensation. Therefore, you need not do any further reading to avail yourself of healing. All you need do is to have any of his ministers perform a miracle. Since so many people here insist that the Bible is not and cannot be wrong in any way, and that its god is without ceaseless mercy and blessings, such an act should be of no trouble to any of his appointed servants.

And for the record, I have suffered life long illness. Therefore, such a person can undertake such an endeavor on my behalf as well.

Let us see these actions take place in order to confirm the Bible's teachings.

[Scheherazade]

Second, in the New Testament, every time Yahshuah (commonly called ''Jesus'') healed a sick person he said ''thy sins are forgiven''. This means that healing miracles represent the divine forgiveness of sin.

Or maybe it suggests that only those who are "sinful" get ill and once their sins are forgiven, they recover.

Disclaimer: I am not of this view; only suggesting another way of intrepreting the text.

[hellsapoppin]

Don't think so because other examples are given of people who were born sick and remained that way for most of their lives despite not having any knowledge or propensity towards sin. But therein lies the ambiguity: these did not sin, yet their ''sins'' were forgiven.

A seeming contradiction but that's the Bible for you.

[Redzeppelin]

Red,

Clearly, you have not read my posts.

I specifically wrote that your god is ''omniscient'' and ''all knowing''. This means he is and will be ever present unlike we humans. I cannot make this more clear.

Since you will not understand what I write I will not address the rest of your note.

I've read them very closely. Your idea about God's omniscience is simply wrong - period. You have constructed an argument that makes sense to you, and I'll accept that. But it is a simplistic view, one that the Bible does not support. Had you - even once - dealt with the points I'd brought up, we might have had a real conversation. I see that that is impossible, and that's too bad.

I'll leave you alone.

[Ydfkdy]

There is no arguement except 4 the question posed.Religion and polotics are the most argued about subjects in the world.The easiest way to answer this question posed is to read your bible.

[hellsapoppin]

``read your Bible``

In college, my humanities term paper and my law school jurisprudence paper was on biblical law. A professor of Jewish law used part of my writing in a book he published a year after I graduated.

I have participated in numerous public debates on biblical teaching and perhaps a couple in Canon law. My opponents have demonstrated that they greatly appreciate my knowledge of the subjects.

When anyone {and I mean anyone} can prove to me that my idea of omniscience is incorrect, I'll be the first to thank them for their success.