D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Dark Muse]

But I think somewhere in the story it indicated that she never did love her husband.

Yes at the end of the story she states that she never did love him, which is one of the reasons I have little respect and compassion for her. If she never loved him or could not be capable of loving anyone again sense her first love, she should never have married him to start with.

If they are healthy mentally and sound emotionally. they might be able to break entirely from their past. but there are a lot of people who truly cannot do so entirely. What you are stating is indeed healthy and ideal, and mature, but all people do not achieve this - afterall, we all have human weaknesses.

This is the point I was trying to make about her weakness in comparing her to the roses. The fact that her actions and feelings are in some ways very immature. It is natural for people to still care about the people of thier past, but not to the extent in which she seems to carry it. In this way she is weak. Her emotions and mentality are very fragile.

Interesting photo of the 'Tree of Heaven'. I will review where these things are related to the text, mentioned - this 'Tree of Heaven' and the painting you posted earlier. They must have some deep significance to this story.

Yes I felt they must hold some meaning becasue they were pointed out and named in such a way. It will be an intresting discussion to delve into that further.

[Hira]

Woah, so many posts!!!

I just loved this passage, the use of the words shadow, particuarly, as well as the way the lawn glowed, and the black soulless windows, which can make an intresting comparrion to the black eyes of her lover, which are now vacant with madness. Perhaps this is another instance of foreshadow?

I so much agree with that, great observation. And then there was later again a similar kind of indication with the house.

The house had a sterile appearance, as if it were still used, but not inhabited. A shadow seemed to go over her

Just like the man having lost his soul, not inhabited.

I felt the use of frames such as the doorway was evident throughout the story. The frames seem to draw us into this other world of her past. Time seems divided by these window and doorways. I liked very much this phrase, "sea-pebbles of its paving" - it made one think of the sea by the
cottage.

I liked this extensively. The fly being added to this idyllic scene does seem to add some feeling of forshadowing. I like the way the word 'shadow' is used as she goes through the doorway and enters the garden. I don't know if I would agree with your assessment of her weakness, since I don't know how much we really know about her or her past. We can only surmise what passed between her and the soldier in years gone by. The use of the word 'shadow' is certainly a deliberate reference to the man who will appear to her and be as a shadow. Did you also notice a reference to fallen rose petals? I thought that statement interesting. Also, some of the roses were briliant in color, but had no scent. I believe this also, had significance to the story's central idea. The man may still be beautiful to her, but hollow or without any substance (as with the rose scent).

I agree with that too. Her exultation in her past, her wanting to preserve the beauty of her memories, past being somehow more potent than the present. And those memories suddenly stained by the actual arrival of her mad lover. A Shadow. A foreshadowing exactly, by the fly, the black on the white.

Interesting about the doorways. I'll look them up, find them in the story.

She was later quite honest with her husband. She could have lied to him or just avoided the whole situation altogether. As in the James Joyce story "The Dead' the wife confesses her past attachment to her former lover to her husband.

I think she decides to tell her husband in the end because she feels herself so terribly bound. As described in the passage she felt so destructive, she wanted to be done with everything. To wound him and end this relationship with the man she had not loved.

But suddenly she lifted her head again swiftly, like a thing that tries to get free. She wanted to be free of it. It was not him so much, but it, something she had put on herself, that bound her so horribly. And having put the bond on herself, it was hardest to take it off. But now she hated everything and felt destructive. He stood with his back to the door, fixed, as if he would oppose her eternally, till she was extinguished. She looked at him. Her eyes were cold and hostile. His workman's hands spread on the panels of the door behind him.

"You know I used to live here?" she began, in a hard voice, as if wilfully to wound him. He braced himself against her, and nodded.

Great paintings and pictures. I wasn’t aware either how Tree of Heaven looked like. So thanks for that. I just read in Wikipedia about the tree, that it is quite unlike the name it is known by. In some countries it is considered as a weed and as a Tree of Hell. Quite contradictory to what its name indicates. Perhaps it’s a suggestion towards the fact that appearances might not necessarily indicate what is truly happening. The way their marriage was rotting inside. And just after that he finds a sweet-tasting apple in a crooked, twisted tree. I also read that it grows in the most hostile of conditions so perhaps it’s a pointing towards that too.

‘The Stag at Bay’ might be a reference to him finding no way out of his predicament. Just like the stag in the pictures with dogs on one side and sea on the other. Stuck totally.

I love the garden passages too! They are lovely, very beautiful.

I do agree with you Dark Muse in that I did not have quite particularly sympathetic emotions for the woman when she treats her husband in that pathetic condescending way. But did find powerful those passages when she encounters her lover.

[Dark Muse]

I think she decides to tell her husband in the end because she feels herself so terribly bound. As described in the passage she felt so destructive, she wanted to be done with everything. To wound him and end this relationship with the man she had not loved.

Yes I agree with that, I do not think her telling of her husband had anything to do with any sort of repsect toward him nor for the sake of wanting to be hoenst with him, but rather I think she did it becasue she cares nothing for him.

Great paintings and pictures. I wasn’t aware either how Tree of Heaven looked like. So thanks for that. I just read in Wikipedia about the tree, that it is quite unlike the name it is known by. In some countries it is considered as a weed and as a Tree of Hell. Quite contradictory to what its name indicates. Perhaps it’s a suggestion towards the fact that appearances might not necessarily indicate what is truly happening. The way their marriage was rotting inside. And just after that he finds a sweet-tasting apple in a crooked, twisted tree. I also read that it grows in the most hostile of conditions so perhaps it’s a pointing towards that too.

Thanks for your great insights and research upon the tree. That is most intresting to know that information, compared to how it is used in the story. I think that is defineinately meaningful and significant.

‘The Stag at Bay’ might be a reference to him finding no way out of his predicament. Just like the stag in the pictures with dogs on one side and sea on the other. Stuck totally.

That is a good observation, in a way I could view it at another angel as well. I could see the woman being the stag, as the hounds in the picture could represent, either the past of the present which she is stuck between. Unable to go back to one, but unable to move forward into the other. Or the two men, the one whom holds her heart, but can no longer return her feelings, and the one that can be there for her but she is incapable of loving.

[Hira]

That is a good observation, in a way I could view it at another angel as well. I could see the woman being the stag, as the hounds in the picture could represent, either the past of the present which she is stuck between. Unable to go back to one, but unable to move forward into the other. Or the two men, the one whom holds her heart, but can no longer return her feelings, and the one that can be there for her but she is incapable of loving.

That is a very meaningful observation! I can see that, her hemmed in between the two. There is one dog lying dead beside the stag too. And also the traces of the storm breaking with shafts of light. Might these represent anything?

[Dark Muse]

There is one dog lying dead beside the stag too. And also the traces of the storm breaking with shafts of light. Might these represent anything?

I wondered about that myself, that is a good question. The dead dog, could represent her true love, as once thought he was dead, only to find he still lived, and yet now would be dead to her forever.

Perhaps in the end this will give her some sort of clousure? Perhaps she can stop living in the past now? Though she may never truly grow to love her husband maybe she will stop living in that lie.

[Hira]

I wondered about that myself, that is a good question. The dead dog, could represent her true love, as once thought he was dead, only to find he still lived, and yet now would be dead to her forever.

Perhaps in the end this will give her some sort of clousure? Perhaps she can stop living in the past now? Though she may never truly grow to love her husband maybe she will stop living in that lie.

Yes, a closure from the past, I agree, that could be a possibility. This wanting inside her to be free and break the bounds she had imposed upon herself.

Perhaps the dead dog could also refer to memories now dead, which were pursuing her originally in a similar way to those dogs. The time now come to actually counter her yearning to live in them, rather than the reality. Get a reality-check so to speak. The shafts of light speaking perhaps of this sundering from the past as a good thing, so that now she is forced upon to look at her life and make a decision. Though I think perhaps I am getting carried away with the painting, lol.

[Dark Muse]

Yes, a closure from the past, I agree, that could be a possibility. This wanting inside her to be free and break the bounds she had imposed upon herself.

Perhaps the dead dog could also refer to memories now dead, which were pursuing her originally in a similar way to those dogs. The time now come to actually counter her yearning to live in them, rather than the reality. Get a reality-check so to speak. The shafts of light speaking perhaps of this sundering from the past as a good thing, so that now she is forced upon to look at her life and make a decision. Though I think perhaps I am getting carried away with the painting, lol.

Haha I know that feeling, and that is very easy to do, but I think those are some excellent insights and good observations.

I cannot offer much more intelligent remarks tonight becasue I am about to slump off, so I will rejoin you all again in the morning.

[Hira]

Good Night! I am off to do some very stupid Calculus homework questions too.

[Janine]

Wow, you too did a great job so far. Last night I read the first 3 or 4 pages again. Second readings always seem to help me better understand the story or novel. I have been trying to research this story. The only reference I found so far is in a letter Lawrence was writing when in Australia - this is so strange to me considering, he and his wife lived remotely there in a cottage (similiar to this story), by the sea and hardly knew anyone. He wrote "Shadow in a Rose Garden" years before this, but he mentions that it is to be included in a new collection of his short stories; but that orginally it was published in "The Prussian Officer and other Short Stories". This revival of this one story seems so odd to me now. I am presently reading "Kangaroo" which is set on the Australian coast he speaks of in this letter. I was thinking when I read "The Shadow in the Rose Garden" that most likely he took the setting from Cornwall, and his time living in a small cottage by the sea with his wife, there again, they both were very seclusive. Interesting, isn't it? I want to further research this story. I may find references in some of my other biographical books, such as the complete letters volumes or "The Intelligent Heart", an earlier biography on Lawrence's life. I am hoping if I find his exact words, I can get some better insight into the story.

Both of you have brought out such good points; the tree seems to indicate to me a dicotomy, which is so typical of Lawrence writing. Interesting that really it is also known as the 'Tree of Hell'. The man seems to turn away from the tree as though he is replused by it. The painting is of particular interest to me, as well. I would think the shafts of light would also be such a typical Lawrence image and theme. He often sees 'light' as an awakening or a sudden insight or tranformational element. Recall the light in "Sun". I have to go back now and view that painting again more closely.

It proves one thing, the more we talk about this seemingly simple story, the more we see it is not at all 'simplistic', but quite complex.

It is curious how hostile you feel towards the woman, Dark Muse. She has really annoyed you. I feel sort of ambivalent towards her, myself. I don't know why she married her husband, but back then in this time frame, I think woman were given very few choices in life; therefore, I could not judge her for her actions of marrying her husband, because I do not know her circumstances at that time. Perhaps she was so distraught or poor and he was kind to her. I don't think she would be the only woman who married a man, who she did not truly love with a passion, as she once knew. She may love him in a quite different way. It is strange, because the physical description very much reminds me of Frieda - Lawrence's wife. Also, the description is similar to Lawrence himself, but not quite.

I can't write much more now because I am going out for dinner with my mother. Keep posting and I will read what the two of you write. You both are thinking hard about this story and it's various elements - great! Your posts are interesting and stimulate me to think of various devices used in this story.

Glad you liked the painting of the woman experiencing the scent of the roses, Hira. You might look up 'Waterhouse' online to see so many lovely paintings. I only wish she had been wearing a white dress as in the story...oh well, close enough, I guess.

Thanks - DM, for posting the photos. Those were very helpful. Being trained as an illustrator, I think these bits of art/photography help nicely to illustrate the story and add something of interest to this thread.

[Dark Muse]

It is curious how hostile you feel towards the woman, Dark Muse. She has really annoyed you. I feel sort of ambivalent towards her, myself. I don't know why she married her husband, but back then in this time frame, I think woman were given very few choices in life; therefore, I could not judge her for her actions of marrying her husband, because I do not know her circumstances at that time. Perhaps she was so distraught or poor and he was kind to her. I don't think she would be the only woman who married a man, who she did not truly love with a passion, as she once knew. She may love him in a quite different way. It is strange, because the physical description very much reminds me of Frieda - Lawrence's wife. Also, the description is similar to Lawrence himself, but not quite.

She just seemed so daft and selfish to me. That whole scene at the end, where she locks herself in her room, and tells her husband to go away and is mad at him becasue he wants to know what is wrong. That is how a child might respond to thier parents, when they are upset about something, but it is not the way a woman should respond to her husband.

And though we do not know thier history prior to the story, the impression given to me, is that he does generally care for her, and though she makes him angery he does not seem as if he is really mean to her, and he seems to be indgulgent of her to some degree, as he moved out here becasue she said she wanted to come, but she does not show any sign of gratefulness in the least.

And then when they were having thier argument, and he is trying to find out what is going on, it just annoyed me the way she kept saying

"What do you mean"

and acting like she did not understand his questions and accused him of asking "not-straightforward questions"

Becasue it seemed to me what he was asking as perfectly clear.

It just seems as if she was not really ready yet to acutally be a grown up, but still trying to pretend to be one.

[Virgil]

Wow, you guys are doing great. I feel left out. But I didn't read it yet.

[Dark Muse]

*Pats Virgil on the back* We still love ya, I wondered where you have been.

[Virgil]

*Pats Virgil on the back* We still love ya, I wondered where you have been.

Thank you Muse.

[Janine]

Thank you Muse.

Yes, Virgil, you have been missed in here....at least by me and Dark Muse. Hurry and finish the story, so you can give us some opinions and thoughts on it soon.

Dark Muse, I don't know what to say, except to just state that I don't think it that important if we like the characters at all. You can maintain your opinion of the woman, as you stated it, but I can also have my own opinion of her. I feel that at this particular time, towards the ending of the story, she needed her space. She seemed to need the time to be alone; at least this is how I view that ending. Even married couples need this from time to time; I have encountered this often in other Lawrence writings, so that I did not find it that unusual that she should ask to be left alone. As I stated, I don't know if this aspect of the story is terribly significant. Lawrence is portraying a married couple in a realistic light. He was married and his marriage had it's 'ups and downs' at times. I think it is realistic that the wife might react this way, and that in turn, the husband would also react in his own manner. Often couples do not understand one another. I think this story in particular shows this sense of confusion between them, that is often evident in complex human relationships, especially between man and woman.


I did find one reference in one of my biography books entitled "The Life of D.H.Lawrence 'The Intelligent Heart' by Harry T. Moore.

And on 10 August, he and Frieda sailed on the Tahiti for San Francisco, touching at Wellington, New Zealand; at Avatiu, Raratonga; and at Papeete, Tahiti. From Welington he sent a friendly postcard to Katherine Mansfield, with a one word message, 'Ricordi', to break their years of silence. Only a day earlier, Katherine Mansfield, on the point of leaving Switzerland for London, had made her will and had named Lawrence among those of her friends who were to receive small remembrances. Aaron's Rod had roused her admiration for the writer so that she could forgive the man. Reading it in July, and coming across an old story of Lawrence's, 'The Shadow in the Rose Garden' (from The Prussian Officer), she had spoken of these in two letters to Koteliansky. Lawrence's 'Rose Garden' story was 'one of the weakest he ever wrote', yet it was 'so utterly different from all the rest' in a collection of modern stories that she read it 'with joy. When he mentions gooseberries these are real red, ripe gooseberries that the gardener is rolling on a tray. When he bites into an apple it is a sharp, sweet, fresh apple from the growing tree.' And the faults of Aaron's Rod, she thought, were minor: the book lived, and it was a relief to read it after 'all these pre-digested books written by authors who have nothing to say!' She could not agree with much of what Lawrence said, and his ideas of sex were meaningless to her, 'but I feel nearer to L, than anyone else. All these last months I have thought as he does about many things.' Indeed, these two writers had similarities in their physical vision, as a close examination of their prose will show: in an age of journalese and of pallid stereotypes, they both wrote in a style that was concrete, sharp-coloured, and kinetic, each of them with a distinct personal cadence. (In the July 1954 issue of Essays in Criticism, Robert Liddell wrote: 'Katherine Mansfield said somewhere that there were three Lawrences: the black devil, whom she hated; the prohet, in whom she did not believe; and the man and artist whom she loved and valued. Now that is it twenty-four years since he died, can we not rid ourselves of the devil and the prophet - for whom there is no future - and find the man and the artist, who is immortal?')

I did think this an interesting passage. Obviously, the author Katherine Mansfield saw the brilliance in this story, from a realistic and artistic viewpoint. Frieda was Lawrence's wife. They traveled extensely after leaving England. At the time this story was written, I believe they were residing in Cornwall in a cottage near the sea and were indeed quite reclusive. The quotes are merely opinions set forth by Katherine Mansfield, who was a good friend to Lawrence.

[Hira]

I was thinking when I read "The Shadow in the Rose Garden" that most likely he took the setting from Cornwall, and his time living in a small cottage by the sea with his wife, there again, they both were very seclusive. Interesting, isn't it? I want to further research this story. I may find references in some of my other biographical books, such as the complete letters volumes or "The Intelligent Heart", an earlier biography on Lawrence's life. I am hoping if I find his exact words, I can get some better insight into the story.

Why Cornwall? It does look very beautiful in these pictures. I did not find many references to this story in his letters but hope you do.

It is curious how hostile you feel towards the woman, Dark Muse. She has really annoyed you. I feel sort of ambivalent towards her, myself. I don't know why she married her husband, but back then in this time frame, I think woman were given very few choices in life; therefore, I could not judge her for her actions of marrying her husband, because I do not know her circumstances at that time. Perhaps she was so distraught or poor and he was kind to her. I don't think she would be the only woman who married a man, who she did not truly love with a passion, as she once knew. She may love him in a quite different way. It is strange, because the physical description very much reminds me of Frieda - Lawrence's wife. Also, the description is similar to Lawrence himself, but not quite.

Glad you liked the painting of the woman experiencing the scent of the roses, Hira. You might look up 'Waterhouse' online to see so many lovely paintings. I only wish she had been wearing a white dress as in the story...oh well, close enough, I guess.

Loved it! Yep, I'll look him up.

She just seemed so daft and selfish to me. That whole scene at the end, where she locks herself in her room, and tells her husband to go away and is mad at him becasue he wants to know what is wrong. That is how a child might respond to thier parents, when they are upset about something, but it is not the way a woman should respond to her husband.

And though we do not know thier history prior to the story, the impression given to me, is that he does generally care for her, and though she makes him angery he does not seem as if he is really mean to her, and he seems to be indgulgent of her to some degree, as he moved out here becasue she said she wanted to come, but she does not show any sign of gratefulness in the least.

And then when they were having thier argument, and he is trying to find out what is going on, it just annoyed me the way she kept saying

"What do you mean"

and acting like she did not understand his questions and accused him of asking "not-straightforward questions"

Becasue it seemed to me what he was asking as perfectly clear.

It just seems as if she was not really ready yet to acutally be a grown up, but still trying to pretend to be one.

Yes, Virgil, you have been missed in here....at least by me and Dark Muse. Hurry and finish the story, so you can give us some opinions and thoughts on it soon.

Dark Muse, I don't know what to say, except to just state that I don't think it that important if we like the characters at all. You can maintain your opinion of the woman, as you stated it, but I can also have my own opinion of her. I feel that at this particular time, towards the ending of the story, she needed her space. She seemed to need the time to be alone; at least this is how I view that ending. Even married couples need this from time to time; I have encountered this often in other Lawrence writings, so that I did not find it that unusual that she should ask to be left alone. As I stated, I don't know if this aspect of the story is terribly significant. Lawrence is portraying a married couple in a realistic light. He was married and his marriage had it's 'ups and downs' at times. I think it is realistic that the wife might react this way, and that in turn, the husband would also react in his own manner. Often couples do not understand one another. I think this story in particular shows this sense of confusion between them, that is often evident in complex human relationships, especially between man and woman.


I did find one reference in one of my biography books entitled "The Life of D.H.Lawrence 'The Intelligent Heart' by Harry T. Moore.



I did think this an interesting passage. Obviously, the author Katherine Mansfield saw the brilliance in this story, from a realistic and artistic viewpoint. Frieda was Lawrence's wife. They traveled extensely after leaving England. At the time this story was written, I believe they were residing in Cornwall in a cottage near the sea and were indeed quite reclusive. The quotes are merely opinions set forth by Katherine Mansfield, who was a good friend to Lawrence.

I love what Katherine Mansfield says about the story

When he mentions gooseberries these are real red, ripe gooseberries that the gardener is rolling on a tray. When he bites into an apple it is a sharp, sweet, fresh apple from the growing tree.

I think I agree with you both Janine and Dark Muse, I really do not like her treatment of her husband but I do agree with what you say Janine about the possible misunderstanding between the two. And perhaps her behaviour is merely instigated by the trauma she has just suffered. But perhaps as you say we are not really required to judge her.

I don't really have anything worthwhile to add at the moment. Didn't do a second reading or anything!