Owning Pets Is Cruel Debate

[Lote-Tree]

to our understanding, but perhaps they have a differant moral code.

Is instinct a moral code? If so that would be it.

[Sweets America]

Lote, you know nothing about the fact that animals have a moral code or not. The only thing you can say is that you just do not know.

[Lote-Tree]

Lote, you know nothing about the fact that animals have a moral code or not. The only thing you can say is that you just do not know.

Research says no Sweetie...but if our own morality is a evolved construct...then I have no doubt that rudimentary moral code will also shown to be in the animal world...I am hoping research will find it...perhaps we have already found it but have not noticed yet...

[Sweets America]

Research says no Sweetie...but if our own morality is a evolved construct...then I have no doubt that rudimentary moral code will also shown to be in the animal world...I am hoping research will find it...perhaps we have already found it but have not noticed yet...

What I am trying to say, dear Lote, is that we will never know if animals have a moral code, because all that we can do in order to try to know it will be scientific experiments.
However, scientific experiments are based on science which has been made by human beings themselves, according to human logic and way of thinking. Humans use this logic to interpret the world around. But no one knows if the scientific rules as they have been made by human beings are the right tool to study other species. we are not objective at all since we see and interpret the world through human eyes.

[Lote-Tree]

What I am trying to say, dear Lote, is that we will never know if animals have a moral code, because all that we can do in order to try to know it will be scientific experiments.
However, scientific experiments are based on science which has been made by human beings themselves, according to human logic and way of thinking. Humans use this logic to interpret the world around. But no one knows if the scientific rules as they have been made by human beings are the right tool to study other species. we are not objective at all since we see and interpret the world through human eyes.

Logic holds for animals too...they can count...eg 1 egg + 1 egg = 2 eggs

This can be demonstrated.

[Sweets America]

Logic holds for animals too...they can count...eg 1 egg + 1 egg = 2 eggs

This can be demonstrated.

Yes, it had also been demonstrated that a horse could count. His master asked 5+5 for instance, and the horse hit the floor ten times with its hoof. The audience was stunned, until someone realized that the horse just hit the floor until he somehow perceived that people didn't expect it to hit anymore. It was all in the audience's reactions.

[Lote-Tree]

Yes, it had also been demonstrated that a horse could count. His master asked 5+5 for instance, and the horse hit the floor ten times with its hoof. The audience was stunned, until someone realized that the horse just hit the floor until he somehow perceived that people didn't expect it to hit anymore. It was all in the audience's reactions.

No seriously. Some animals have been demonstrated to count ie. 2+2=4

Look it up in google

[Sweets America]

No seriously. Some animals have been demonstrated to count ie. 2+2=4

Look it up in google

My point was not that animals cannot count. I was just trying to say that sometimes, we, humans, interpret things according to our expectations or to our logic, but we might be totally wrong.

It is strange, also, how you always seem to know everything and to have read everything about every subject that is discussed here. You are the real Lote-Tree, I have no more doubt now.

[Lote-Tree]

we, humans, interpret things according to our expectations or to our logic, but we might be totally wrong.

2+2=4 lassie...either in Animal Logic or an Alien from Planet Zog.

Do you know why?

Because it is written in the Fabric of our Universe

It is strange, also, how you always seem to know everything and to have read everything about every subject that is discussed here. You are the real Lote-Tree, I have no more doubt now.

Please I am a humble man

[Sweets America]

2+2=4 lassie...either in Animal Logic or an Alien from Planet Zog.

I have not been on planet Zog yet, so I cannot tell.

Do you know why?

Because it is written in the Fabric of our Universe

Actually I remember someone here explained this to me once. No it was not you, you are not the only one to know everything.

But anyway, this has nothing to do with what I was saying at first. I was just saying that the human way of thinking might not be able to understand animal behaviors.

Please I am a humble man

Yes of course.
Let me give your banana back to you. I don't know what to do with it anymore.

Oh, question: is 'give your banana back to you' grammatical?? Or was it 'give you back your banana' or 'give you your banana back?'.

[Virgil]

Fifth, here are some pictures of my dog, Brandi. Now tell me she doesn't live the life.
















Do you think this looks like a prisoner in my house?

[Lote-Tree]

No it was not you, you are not the only one to know everything.

No problemo and I don't know everything. The only thing I am sure of knowing is that I know nothing ;-)

Let me give your banana back to you. I don't know what to do with it anymore.

Has my banana offended you in some way

If so it will be disciplined ;-)

[Sweets America]

[QUOTE]

No problemo and I don't know everything. The only thing I am sure of knowing is that I know nothing ;-)

Oh Lote I am so happy to hear you say that!

Has my banana offended you in some way

If so it will be disciplined ;-)

Well, no, it has not offended me, it is just that it spent its time talking and talking and talking, explaining me its banana life, and how it was fed up with being constantly attached to you, how you treated it badly, never left it alone...and now I hear that it will be disciplined? You should be nicer with it, poor little banana.

[TheFifthElement]

If you only apply your morals to yourself then all animals can be exterminated because our morals do not apply to them and they have no morals.

This is because you're missing a step. See as follows :

1) "all animals can be exterminated because our morals do not apply to them "

This depends on how you construct your morality. I agree, our morals do not apply to animals, but our morals dictate how we behave towards animals. If your moral view is that humans are dominant and that we can behave towards animals exactly as we like then your statement is logical. That may be your morality. It is not mine.

2) "they have no morals"

This is not for us to decide. They might, they might not. We don't know.

If I apply my morality directly to animals then I am saying that they should live as I live.

But that will be stupid won't it?

Good, we agree then. I see we are getting somewhere I also see you omitted perhaps the more important point of my statement above which was :

If I apply my morality directly to animals then I am saying that they should live as I live. But this is not my statement, it is yours.

Because Animals are not on the same level as us.

This was also the white slave owners argument in relation to the black slave.

Logic holds for animals too...they can count...eg 1 egg + 1 egg = 2 eggs

This can be demonstrated.

Animals have logic but no moral code. Somehow this seems a rather inconsistent argument.

Fifth, here are some pictures of my dog, Brandi. Now tell me she doesn't live the life.

Do you think this looks like a prisoner in my house?

Virgil, these are nice pictures. As I said to Sweets America, I don't doubt that any of the pet owners who have posted here are anything other than concerned, caring and diligent. This is not about you and your dog. I've explained my reasoning to you. It requires taking a step back from your relationship with your pet and think about the bigger picture, applying our human rules concerning human behaviour consistently to our behaviour. I have had pets in the past, I have loved and cared for them. I do not regret that, but I will not take a pet into my home again. This is my choice, my morality. It does not have to be yours (unless it is law, then it does!).

Nice try Virgil, but you have not convinced me

[Lote-Tree]

This depends on how you construct your morality. I agree, our morals do not apply to animals

No I did not say that. I said our morality extends to everything around us. It is you who said human morality should only apply to humans. And I said if that was the case then we can exterminate all animals.

If your moral view is that humans are dominant and that we can behave towards animals exactly as we like then your statement is logical.

It is you who are saying that human morality should only apply to humans only.

That may be your morality. It is not mine.

You are saying your morality should only apply to humans. That is NOT my morality. My morality extends to all the things that I have around me. My compassion for example is not for my humans alone but for everything that is around me.

Your morality is Selfish.

This is not for us to decide. They might, they might not. We don't know.

As far as we can tell - they have not shown such things. We can only go by the available evidence.

And if you don't believe in Evidence based truths then...I can do nothing for you. You might as welll believe in the Great Elephant Tree's in the Sky and that will be your Truth and your Truth alone.

Good, we agree then. I see we are getting somewhere I also see you omitted perhaps the more important point of my statement above which was :

No, we are not getting anywhere. We just going in circles.

You are confusing the issues further for yourself.

You say these things:

1. Human Morality should only apply to humans - I am telling you that would be a nonsense.

2. You are saying that if you apply human morality to animals then they should live like us...and I am saying that would be stupid becase they are not on our level of awareness.

3. You are saying animals should not be disciplined and they should be treated as equals and not subordinates. And I am saying even in a freindship friends discipline each other.

This was also the white slave owners argument in relation to the black slave.

As I have said Slavery and Pet ownership is not the same. One is about material gain of the owner the other is not.

Animals have logic but no moral code. Somehow this seems a rather inconsistent argument.

No it's not. I have said animal morality is not evidenced by research.