What do you think of Platypuses?

[Virgil]

I didn't realize you guys were talking about one of my favorite subjects, dogs!! I thought you were still talking about platypuses, and how tastey they might be.

The whole concept of keeping any animals as pets is disturbing to me, like a cruel form of long term torture. Imagine, if a man found a woman 'cute', would it be okay to divorce her from what would be her natural environment, her environment of choice, and keep her, effectively, a prisoner without any chance of self-determination, choice or will for the rest of her life, and foist kisses and other such affections on her as though this makes up for the act of subjugation.

I wonder, if it was acceptable or normal to act towards other humans in this way, would we continue to do so in relation to animals? Is it just another expression of our desire to have dominion over something else, albeit largely well intentioned? If dogs could speak would they say 'let me be a dog'?

I say, if you love them set them free. (or perhaps Sting might have said it, but if he did I agree!)

I think this is a danger we all fall into, assuming that a creature loves us because it appears, to our standards, to be so. But this phenomenon is observed in humans subjected to acts of subjugation and denial of self-will, for example in cases of kidnapping. It's called Stockholm Syndrome, more about it here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

This, I think, is part of the concern for me, is the behaviour we observe in our pets merely an animal version of Stockholm Syndrome?



I'm not sure it is different, in fact the more I think about it, the more I think that the whole matter of domestic pets is worse. We breed 'pets' purely for the purpose of our amusement and gratification without them ever having the possibility of living life according to their nature, with the freedom to behave as they choose to behave without complying to human expectations and rules.

Fifth a dog is not a human nor is it a wild animal. While it has an ability to live in the wild, it's natural inclination is to live around humans, and yes through domestication have evolved away from the wolf. Their mental processes are different. That's why that study that Sleepy cited that proved a wolf was not as smart as a dog does not surprise me. I bet a wolf would have been supeiror in using its smarts in the wild, but it cannot make the transition to domestication. The dog understands genetically what human interation is, and will outsmart the wolf in a human environment. All I can say is my dog is incredibly happy living with me. Right now she's sleeping on the couch.

[SleepyWitch]

Fifth a dog is not a human nor is it a wild animal. While it has an ability to live in the wild, it's natural inclination is to live around humans, and yes through domestication have evolved away from the wolf.

yep, that's exactly what I mean. I don't think dogs would die a miserable death if humans weren't around any longer. i mean, look at all those stray dogs who eat mice etc. (of course there are also stray dogs in cities that eat rubbish, french fries, crumbs, but there are also those in the country side that can survive without man-made food). plus, in regions where there are wolves, don't stray dogs inter-breed with the wolves? so even if the wolf packs reject the cross-breeds, eventually there'd be a lot of them and they could start their own pack.

and besides, the domestication of dogs is not a modern phenomenon. i mean they already kept dogs as domesticated animals in the Stone Age or something. so if someone scr*wed up it was those guys. it's a little late to worry about it now

[Sweets America]

Ah, I'm glad to see that Virgil posted here, I was waiting for his opinion.
I believe my dog is happy with me too. He can be outside or live in the house with us. He likes it in the house because he has a nice couch, and...also, he likes being around us in the kitchen during meals. Especially when I am here because he knows that I will always give him a little something to eat. He says it's not his fault if I cannot resist his hangdog look.
I live in the country too, and my doggy has a large garden to wander in.

He's far from being a slave. He has a real character and will mainly do what HE wants to do, and if you do something that he dislikes, he will look at you with reproaching eyes. If you talk badly to him, he goes away and YOU have to go and say sorry if you want him to come back.

Just like Sleepy, I think dogs would survive without human beings. There are dogs who flee from their house and they find a way of feeding themselves.

[TheFifthElement]

Well, I didn't expect the pet owners to agree with me. It's an uncomfortable statement. I'd imagine the slave owners didn't agree with the abolitionists either, but then we all now accept that the denial of human freedom is wrong. My view is that the same applies to animals and just because we love them doesn't mean it's okay to put them in a cage, however nice that cage might be. Perhaps I should have prefaced my original post by saying that this statement :

They are cute animals, I want one as a pet.

profoundly hurt, disturbed and offended me, but I accept that this wasn't Sweets America's intent. Perhaps I should say that I'd like to think that if I came across a playtpus (in the wild) and looked it in the eye it would know and understand my feelings, that it would know that I would like live in a world where although humans can interfere in the lives of animals that they wouldn't, and that I would be able to tell that it understood me. But then if I can't even make a few humans understand this point, and we speak the same language, and experience the same emotions, then what chance is there that a different species will understand?

Fifth a dog is not a human nor is it a wild animal. While it has an ability to live in the wild, it's natural inclination is to live around humans,

Virgil, how do you know that a dogs natural inclination is to live around humans? There are still wild dogs in the world that don't interact with the human population.

That's why that study that Sleepy cited that proved a wolf was not as smart as a dog does not surprise me.

Again, what troubles me about this is that it applies human standards to the concept of 'smart'. The dog is smart because it can learn to live with humans, and adapt to the human lifestyle. Does this mean that humans are not smart because we can't adapt to other creatures?

In point the discussion has so far been mainly centred around dogs, but what about cats, mice, fish, birds, snakes, gerbils, hamsters, rabbits, etc, etc which are all kept as 'pets'. Are they naturally inclined to live with humans too?

[SleepyWitch]

In point the discussion has so far been mainly centred around dogs, but what about cats, mice, fish, birds, snakes, gerbils, hamsters, rabbits, etc, etc which are all kept as 'pets'. Are they naturally inclined to live with humans too?

I totally agree with you on this point, Fifth.

I'd imagine the slave owners didn't agree with the abolitionists either, but then we all now accept that the denial of human freedom is wrong. My view is that the same applies to animals and just because we love them doesn't mean it's okay to put them in a cage, however nice that cage might be.

yep, but then you could say it's wrong for people to marry even when they love each other, because they are putting each other in a cage, too?

I'm sitting on the fence and there's splinters in my bum

[TheFifthElement]

yep, but then you could say it's wrong for people to marry even when they love each other, because they are putting each other in a cage, too?

I'd agree with you if marriage was still for life, but it isn't, so I guess it's a cage with the door permanently open, which isn't a cage at all.

I'm sitting on the fence and there's splinters in my bum

Sleepy, get off that fence - think about your poor bum, doesn't it have rights too!

[Sweets America]

Well, I didn't expect the pet owners to agree with me. It's an uncomfortable statement. I'd imagine the slave owners didn't agree with the abolitionists either, but then we all now accept that the denial of human freedom is wrong. My view is that the same applies to animals and just because we love them doesn't mean it's okay to put them in a cage, however nice that cage might be. Perhaps I should have prefaced my original post by saying that this statement :



profoundly hurt, disturbed and offended me, but I accept that this wasn't Sweets America's intent. Perhaps I should say that I'd like to think that if I came across a playtpus (in the wild) and looked it in the eye it would know and understand my feelings, that it would know that I would like live in a world where although humans can interfere in the lives of animals that they wouldn't, and that I would be able to tell that it understood me. But then if I can't even make a few humans understand this point, and we speak the same language, and experience the same emotions, then what chance is there that a different species will understand?

Jesus Christ, Fifth! I just cannot believe that you took the 'I want one as a pet' seriously!!
It was obvious that it was A JOKE! Look at all the possibilities of vote, they were all JOKES! This is terrible that one cannot write a line without it being taken the wrong way.
That reminds me of when I told my ex American boyfriend in a joking manner : 'Oh I have an English boyfriend, an Irish one, an Australian one, a Canadian one, BUT, you are of course my favorite of all!' and to my great surprise, my boyfriend took that seriously and really believed I had boyfriends in all these countries! I mean, come on!

I feel insulted when you compare dogs with slaves. I feel that slaves themselves could feel insulted by your statement. It's too easy. It reminds me of those people who compare the French president to Hitler! It's such an insult to use these terrible historical events to one's advantage just to try to shock and prove one's point.

[SleepyWitch]

That reminds me of when I told my ex American boyfriend in a joking manner : 'Oh I have an English boyfriend, an Irish one, an Australian one, a Canadian one, BUT, you are of course my favorite of all!' and to my great surprise, my boyfriend took that seriously and really believed I had boyfriends in all these countries! I mean, come on!

so that's what you meant when you said someone should have told you Americans don't understand irony?

[Sweets America]

so that's what you meant when you said someone should have told you Americans don't understand irony?

Well I guess so. But really, I am just surprised, it was obvious to me that it was a joke, and it just meant 'I find these animals cute'.
Anyway, this thread was supposed to be a funny one at first, believe it or not.

[SleepyWitch]

what do you think of Kiwis? they are funny, too aren't they?



huge pic, please click the link. it's a bit scary...
http://www.newscentre.bham.ac.uk/ima...nd_eyes_02.jpg

[Sweets America]

what do you think of Kiwis? they are funny, too aren't they?



huge pic, please click the link. it's a bit scary...
http://www.newscentre.bham.ac.uk/ima...nd_eyes_02.jpg

I don't really know what I think of kiwis. I am not really fond of their taste. I prefer Platypuses. That has nothing to do with their taste, though.
Your big image was strange.

Edit: oh, the first image had not appeared before. This kiwi looks funny.

[TheFifthElement]

This is terrible that one cannot write a line without it being taken the wrong way.

Indeed. Perhaps you could apply the same philosophy to my posts.

[SleepyWitch]

woa, what' with you girls? let's talk about something uncontroversial for a change? .........e.g. nudity

[Sweets America]

Indeed. Perhaps you could apply the same philosophy to my posts.

You are right. Since this subject is a very sensible one to me, I tend to lack objectivity about it and I react a little abruptly.
Sleepy is right I guess, we should forget about that.

[TheFifthElement]

You are right. Since this subject is a very sensible one to me, I tend to lack objectivity about it and I react a little abruptly.
Sleepy is right I guess, we should forget about that.

I understand why Sweets, I have had to reconcile my own prior pet keeping habits with this concept, and it is uncomfortable. But then what is life without regrets? Boring, I guess.