The Aeneid Discussion Group

[Dori]

Now this interests me. I would be interested in listening to this in the near future and will look into it. Did you buy it recently...any thoughts on how to find it, Dori?

I bought it about a year ago from Barnes and Noble. It was still available at the local (I should say nearest) Barnes and Noble not more than a week ago. Here's the link for it on Amazon.com: The Aeneid, audiobook.

If my eyes serve me right, I think Virgil posted the picture of the audiobook (the one I own) rather than the hardcover copy of the book (found here). I think I can make out "Unabridged ~ 10 CDs" at the top in the picture Virgil provided.

[Janine]

Thanks Dori, I have been reading the posts on Amazon - very interesting...I put the book into my "Wish List" and may buy it soon - really reasonable on there.

[Virgil]

Well, I read Book I and let me put out some thoughts on the first few stanzas. Virgil emphasizes a number of things in that very first stanza. Obviously war, but also fate, destiny, the difficulties Aeneas bears, the rage of Juno, the founding of Rome, and the bringing of his gods there. These are all the themes that will be expanded upon. And as a method of getting into the exposition, Virgil asks the muse several questions that I find interesting:

Tell me,
Muse, how it all began. Why was Juno outraged?
What could wound the Queen of the Gods with all her power?
Why did she force a man, so famous for his devotion,
to brave such rounds of hardship, bear such trials?
Can such rage inflame the immortals' hearts? (l.8-13)

First it re-emphasizes the difficulties that Aeneas will bear, but it also shows how much of a play thing of the gods we humans are, even for a devout person as Aeneas. Does being devout really provide anything? And the other observation is the last question: can human emotions be inside the gods. The answer obviously is yes, but Virgil takes the stance that he doesn't know.

The exposition follows from these questions, and we see another interesting thing. Yes there is the line of destiny that stemmed from the judgement of Paris that led to the Trojan war and the fall of Troy. But we now have an additonal line of "history" that the Greeks never had in their epics: Aeneas and his men will found the city of Rome and come into conflict and destroy Juno's city of Carthage. The line of destiny will now lead into real, not mythic, contemporary history.

And following the exposition, we see the whims of the gods creating chaos to the sailing ships.

With such thanks, swinging his [Aeolus] spear around he strikes home
at the mountain's hollow flank and out charged the winds
through the breech he made, like armes on attack
in a blasting whirlwind tearing through the earth.
Down they crash on the sea, the Eastwind, Southwind,
all as one with the southwest's squalls in hot pursuit,
heaving up from the ocean depths huge killer-breakers
rolling toward the beaches. The crews are shouting,
cables screeching--suddenly cloudbanks blotting out
the sky, the light of day, from the Trojan's sight
as pitch-black night comes brooding down on the sea
with thunder crashing pole to pole, bolt on bolt
blazing across the heavens--death, everywhere
men facing instant death. (l. 97-110)

And just as sudden, sixty lines later when Neptune realizes what has happened on his seas, he puts and end to the turmoil and brings stability:

Quicker than his [Neptune] command he calms the heaving seas,
putting the clouds to rout and bringing back the sun. (l.167-8)

[Dori]

I posted this on another site which also held a discussion of The Aeneid. Perhaps it will be of some use:

Below I will list some online texts which can either be used entirely (in other words, instead of actually buying it), or in part for reference purposes.

The Aeneid, Theodore C. Williams translation, Verse
The Aeneid, John Dryden translation, Verse
The Aeneid, A. S. Kline translation, Verse

The John Dryden trans. uses archaic language, and the A. S. Kline trans. reads the smoothest out of the three online translations. But the decision is up to whomever will decide to use the links.

Both David West's prose translation (if you want to read prose) and Robert Fagle's verse translation are the better choices, from what I've seen (both of which aren't available online).

[stlukesguild]

First it re-emphasizes the difficulties that Aeneas will bear, but it also shows how much of a play thing of the gods we humans are, even for a devout person as Aeneas. Does being devout really provide anything?

Intriguing theme... the notion of man... even the most devout man... as being nothing but a plaything for the gods/God. The most obvious parallel that comes to mind is the Hebrew book of Job... not that in anyway I expect Virgil would have been aware of this work. I further wonder whether this concept of the all powerful toying with their "underlings"... even the most loyal... might also be rooted in Virgil's knowledge or experience of how the politicians and rulers of Rome operated... especially if one considers the supposed appropriation of the lands belonging to Virgil's family near Mantua in order to pay off the soldiers who had supported the cause of the Second Triumvirate (including Octavian) against the Liberators (Julius Caesar's assassins, Brutus and Cassius).

[Virgil]

First it re-emphasizes the difficulties that Aeneas will bear, but it also shows how much of a play thing of the gods we humans are, even for a devout person as Aeneas. Does being devout really provide anything?

Intriguing theme... the notion of man... even the most devout man... as being nothing but a plaything for the gods/God. The most obvious parallel that comes to mind is the Hebrew book of Job... not that in anyway I expect Virgil would have been aware of this work.

I was abut to say I do to know the Book of job, but then I realized you meant the real Virgil.

I further wonder whether this concept of the all powerful toying with their "underlings"... even the most loyal... might also be rooted in Virgil's knowledge or experience of how the politicians and rulers of Rome operated... especially if one considers the supposed appropriation of the lands belonging to Virgil's family near Mantua in order to pay off the soldiers who had supported the cause of the Second Triumvirate (including Octavian) against the Liberators (Julius Caesar's assassins, Brutus and Cassius).

Interesting thought. But this notion of of humans as playthings of the gods goes back to even before Virgil. But it does have a parallel to the politicians, whether intended or coincidence.

[Petrarch's Love]

I was abut to say I do to know the Book of job, but then I realized you meant the real Virgil.

This could make things a tad confusing. I for one plan to address the lit. net Virgil only as Virg. on this thread, and the original Virgil as Virgil in an attempt to avoid confusion...that is unless our Virgil minds.

Intriguing theme... the notion of man... even the most devout man... as being nothing but a plaything for the gods/God. The most obvious parallel that comes to mind is the Hebrew book of Job... not that in anyway I expect Virgil would have been aware of this work. I further wonder whether this concept of the all powerful toying with their "underlings"... even the most loyal... might also be rooted in Virgil's knowledge or experience of how the politicians and rulers of Rome operated... especially if one considers the supposed appropriation of the lands belonging to Virgil's family near Mantua in order to pay off the soldiers who had supported the cause of the Second Triumvirate (including Octavian) against the Liberators (Julius Caesar's assassins, Brutus and Cassius).

I think Job makes for an interesting comparison with the Aeneid opening, though perhaps the parallels only go so far. Certainly both the book of Job and Virgil's epic are addressing the problem of the devout man who suffers and is helpless before forces greater than himself. The nature of the divine power, however, is rather different in the two texts. In Job he's supposed to accept that there is something about God that is unknowable, and that it is not his place to ask about God's motives, and the story is told in such a way that the reader also is in a position to be awed by the mystery of God's ways. I don't really get the sense that Job is necessarily God's plaything, as much as a sense that we don't really know what God's motives are. He may just be playing about and testing Job, or there may be some really good reason for Job's suffering related to some highly complex universal plan. We just don't really know.

I suppose one imagines that Aeneas himself is similarly in the dark about the gods' motives, but certainly the story is told in a way that makes the machinations of the gods clear to us. This is where I think you're right to bring up the parallel in human politics. These gods behave like immensely powerful men rather than like mysterious and unknowable higher beings. It seems perfectly right to characterize them as sometimes looking upon humans and their fates as playthings. As Virg. points out, certainly this view of the Gods was something Virgil was picking up from Homer and others, so the format wasn't solely inspired by political events of his own time. However, the idea of the Gods behaving in this manner from Homer on must surely have been inspired by the observation powerful men and their influence of those below them, which can be universal to any time. Certainly Virgil's own knowledge of these goings on would make him more effective writing in this traditional vein.

Thinking of the influence of Homer, it is interesting to note that Odysseus' troubles similar sea faring troubles in the Odyssey do at least start because actions of his own ticked off the gods. Virgil does change things by making Aeneas a much more personally blameless hero. His travails are not as much the cause of his bad actions in the present as they are the cause of the actions of those in the past, and the prediction of things that will take place in the future. This does indeed, bring us back to a Job-like parallel, as you pointed out.

[stlukesguild]

I was abut to say I do to know the Book of job, but then I realized you meant the real Virgil.

Yes... this could lead to some real problems. You might find yourself getting a swollen head when one of us makes some comment about Virgil's "brilliance" or "genius". On the other hand... you might imagine yourself the center of a personal attack when somebody suggests that Virgil is just far too pretentious... or a pompous windbag.

[stlukesguild]

Petrarch's Love... we could refer to THE Virgil by his full name, Publius Vergilius Maro... or Virgilius for short. Rather like your own dilemma in discussing Petrarch's Canzoniere. Luckily, we're not likely to be reading anything by St. Luke in the near future.

[stlukesguild]

Petrarch's Love... I guess that the link I see between the way in which the Greco-Roman gods play with the mere mortals and that of the Book of Job lies more within the behind the scenes frame story. Ever since reading Stephen Mitchell's marvelous introduction to his translation of Job, I have been unable to ignore the almost Kafkaesque absurdity and cruelty. God calls all his minions together then brags, "did you notice my servant, Job?" The tempter (or the Accuser) cannot help but fall for the bait... and for the sake of a bet, if you will, he's given permission to do as he will. After the death and destruction of almost all that Job cares for the Lord then states (in a manner almost nauseating) "See? He's holding on to his wholeness even after you made me torment him for no reason." which is followed by the calm cruelty of "All right. He's in your power; just don't kill him." When the Lord eventually does deign to answer Job's question, "Why", the answer is an almost visionary splendor conveying the impossibility of ever fathoming God's intentions... but then I find myself wondering... how far removed is this from Kafka's tales of the unknowable... mysterious ways of the powers that be? Can we really expect the Lord to come out and admit, "Well Job, you see... it all began with this little bet..."? But I digress... Virgil... Virgilius...Publius Vergilius Maro... that's our man.

[grace86]

Virg. I have been trying to post here since you started the thread!!! I am going to be optimistic and attempt to read the Aeneid....very slowly might I add because classes start Friday for me.

I've read the major parts of The Aeneid in my world literature course last year, and I loved all I read. Unfortunately I do not like the way it was discussed in class, so I am looking forward to participating.

Everyone here sounds so darn intelligent though grrrr... by the time I actually get around to posting on litnet my brain has already been fried for the day!!!! But I shall pursue...

stlukesguild I keep seeing the quotations in your signature and I keep wanting to say how much I love them!!!! Thank you for sharing them, they're great!

[Virgil]

Certainly both the book of Job and Virgil's epic are addressing the problem of the devout man who suffers and is helpless before forces greater than himself. The nature of the divine power, however, is rather different in the two texts. In Job he's supposed to accept that there is something about God that is unknowable, and that it is not his place to ask about God's motives, and the story is told in such a way that the reader also is in a position to be awed by the mystery of God's ways. I don't really get the sense that Job is necessarily God's plaything, as much as a sense that we don't really know what God's motives are. He may just be playing about and testing Job, or there may be some really good reason for Job's suffering related to some highly complex universal plan. We just don't really know.

Oh but Job is a plaything of God and we the reader do know what His motives are. As St Luke's quotes subsequent to your post, God is in a way betting with Satan on Job's faith. The difference is that Job as a character doesn't know why God is afflicting him, as opposed to Aeneas who certainly knows of his duty to found Rome and I believe he understands that Juno is set against him.

Thinking of the influence of Homer, it is interesting to note that Odysseus' troubles similar sea faring troubles in the Odyssey do at least start because actions of his own ticked off the gods. Virgil does change things by making Aeneas a much more personally blameless hero. His travails are not as much the cause of his bad actions in the present as they are the cause of the actions of those in the past, and the prediction of things that will take place in the future. This does indeed, bring us back to a Job-like parallel, as you pointed out.

Good point about the similarity and differences to The Odyssesy.

[Virgil]

Virg. I have been trying to post here since you started the thread!!! I am going to be optimistic and attempt to read the Aeneid....very slowly might I add because classes start Friday for me.

I've read the major parts of The Aeneid in my world literature course last year, and I loved all I read. Unfortunately I do not like the way it was discussed in class, so I am looking forward to participating.

Everyone here sounds so darn intelligent though grrrr... by the time I actually get around to posting on litnet my brain has already been fried for the day!!!! But I shall pursue...

Well, it would be nice to have you join us Grace. I think Janine is somewhat interested herself. I understand that school work must come first. What translation did you use in class by the way?

[quasimodo1]

Virgil, forgive the delay in this posting; it resulted from something that always seemed missing in the English translation (Dryden, in this case). First let me say that when making our own translation of many key parts of this Latin epic, back in the day, we were so busy trying to get the parts translated correctly that the impetus of the work was almost considered peripherally. There are variations on the theme for each deity, a concept that seems illusive because of common and present religious assumptions that most readers bring to this experience. The oft mentioned gods such as "the tyrant Aeolus", god of the winds and "the haughty Juno", overloard deity, should not be percieved as just a god among many others, but rather consider them active forces of nature in Virgil's world and like natural forces were fickle, fair and unfair, conspiring against or assisting Aeneas, his warriors and his enemies. The reader encounters so many deities as to dismiss them as the ravings of a primative religion. It is helpfull to look for a mindset that includes these entities as real to Virgil as earth, air, fire and water. Since the Latin text is so compressed compared to modern translations, alot of what we would call spin or connotation comes across somewhat watered down. Here is a usefull comparison........................................ ............ ["Aeolus haec contra: "Tuus, O regina, quid optes explorare labor; mihi jussa capessere fas est. / Tu mihi quodcumque hoc regni, tu sceptra Jovemque/ concilias, tu das epulis accumbere divum/ nimborumque facis tempestatumque potentem." ] lines 76 to 80 inclusive.... And the English translation (Dryden) ["To this the god: "'T'is yours, O queen, to will / The work which duty binds me to fulfil. / These airy kingdoms, and this wide command, / Are all the presents of your bounteous hand: / Yours is my sov'reign's grace; and, as your guest, / I sit with gods at their celestial feast; / Raise tempests at your pleasure, or subdue; / Dispose of empire, which I hold from you."] Note the length of the English compared to Latin; it shows at least that some intensity is lost in translation.

[grace86]

Well, it would be nice to have you join us Grace. I think Janine is somewhat interested herself. I understand that school work must come first. What translation did you use in class by the way?

I used the Robert Fagles Translation and I loved it!

If I can't find that translation at the library I will cave and buy it (I've been wanting to buy it since it came out anyway). Turns out they are going to have a paperback edition of the Fagles translation coming out at the end of this month.