Christmas Reading: "Fathers and Sons" by Turgenev

[Alexei]

Well, I finished the book and now I am quite exited about it. I have finally formed my general impression. I think I am slightly disappointed. It's not like I didn't like the book, on the contrary - I like it very much, but I started reading with a very different idea about what I am going to read. I suppose I expected to see something more like Dostoevsky and Tolstoy I am not sure. On the other hand, as I've already said, I liked it very much, especially the second part of the book, but I will talk about it later Actually, I have a little complain - I wanted it to be a little longer

Hi Quark,no need to say "Ouch" - No, you took me all wrong. I did not mean he was like Iago (Iago is an extreme case). I just meant that, even thought the play is called "Othello", isn't the most interesting character Iago? He is the most complex and hard to figure out. I just mean this as an example of how one character can 'steal the show', so to speak. I think all eyes are turned to Bazarov and therefore, he does feel 'central' to the story and the plot and the ideas behind the story. If there was no Bazarov, there would be no story "Fathers and Sons". Can you see what I mean? There are many things about Bazarov that I find to be very unattractive. I am a 'people person' and I don't see this with Bazarov, sure he made friends with the young boys when he went to gather specimens but is that such an accomplishment; he talked to the peasants and they might have been the friendly ones there, but when it comes to his friend's own family members he has no social graces and seems insolent to me at times...really ignorant of their feelings. I, like several others have expressed, did not like him at all at first. He seemed to think he was 'above it all' and I don't take well to people such as that.

I can see what are you talking about, Bazarov is domineering the whole novel, I feel it the same way (well, I think this is doubtless, but never mind, I just needed to say it ). I find him very special even though I can't start to like him or identify myself with him. I find charming this need to have certain attitude toward him, you can't just ignore him, you have to like him or dislike him. It's all because he is such strong character, but still this fascinates me, may be it's because for a long time I haven't read a book with main character having such overwhelming personality.

Yes, Alexei, isn't it something how one can't put the book down...a little easier for me this time around since I sort of know what is to come but when you don't you want to read on to see where the story will lead us. Turgenev really has a great way of pulling the reader in and keeping his/her attention. He is an easy author to read because he is so direct and does not draw out everything in endless detail. Even descriptive parts of the book are not long, but just right, in my opinion.

I am not really sure whether I like this. I generally prefer more detailed style of writing with more descriptions and sometimes long reflections on the characters' behavior and personality. But still I like the book and keeps me interested.

You may be the farthest into the book of any of us. I didn't know you were in you teens, though. I've seen you on a couple of other threads, and something made me think you were older. So you like the older Kirsanovs? I think I like the Nikolai more than I like Pavel. You feel for Nikolai in this book; Pavel is just too absurd of a character for me to really indentify with.

Really? That's very interesting, especially after I just turned 17 a little more than a week ago
I am not sure who is the one I prefer. For me there is something interesting and attracting in both of them. Nikolai seems so romantic and gentle and, of course, there is something that win him o his side - his playing the violoncello. I don't know I find something so sad in the way Bazarov decided that this is ridiculous. I am not talking about Bazarov now, just about the estimate of the action. It gives off such sorrow. And then in this sentence:

"Oh, how Bazarov would have laughed at him, if he had known what was passing within him now! Arkady himself would have condemned him. He, a man forty-four years old, an agriculturist and a farmer, was shedding tears, causeless tears; this was a hundred times worse than the violoncello."

As for Pavel, I think this sentence depict his character the best:

"Pavel Petrovich walked on to the end of the garden, also deep in thought, and he, too, raised his eyes to the sky--but his beautiful dark eyes reflected only the light of the stars. He was not born a romantic idealist, and his fastidiously dry though ardent soul, with its tinge of French scepticism, was not addicted to dreaming . . ."

The English translation is so beautiful. I am reading it on Bulgarian it's so different. I like this one better, it's more poetic. I've checked the Russian text and it's actually closer to mine, there are some slight changes in the English one, still I think I prefer it There the statement is more direct here things are hinted, but it doesn't sound so much as "final verdict".

I think there is something captivating in all this. I find a certain beauty in the contradiction of this description and the description of Pavel's love story in chapter 7 (may be it's not a perfect contradiction, but still I find at least a slight one).

I'm dying to talk about Bazarov at Madam Odintzov and his statement that all people are the same:

"People are like trees in a forest; no botanist would dream of studying each birch tree in detail"

"In a proper functioning society it woldn't matter a jot whether a man were stupid or intellegent, good or bad"

He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

I find them interesting it too, although my first reaction is of strong disagreement. I think he is neglecting the fact that the mind isn't something like an organ in the human organism.

[Dori]

Do we know the ages of Arkadii and Bazarov?

I don't think the text ever stated their ages at all, did it...does anyone know?

In Chapter XXVI, Arkady says, "I am not now the conceited boy I was when I came here...I've not reached twenty-three for nothing..."

And in Chapter XXV, Anna Seergevna says, "...and to see that he is clever...And [Arkady's] young...that's the great thing...not like you and me, Evgeny Vasilich." Although this statement doesn't directly refer to the age of Evgeny, I do believe he is older than Arkady. Anna Seergevna "was a little older than Arkady---she was twenty-nine---..." (Chapter XIV)

[Janine]

It is like Quark said - I go away for a time and come back and wow, so much has happened here - 5 or 6 new posts! I am too tired now to address any, but I did read them all. It has been a hectic day and I am tired out....sorry. I will keep reading.

[hellsapoppin]

``why do you guys think Arkadii likes Bazarov so much in the beginning? He calls him smart, but what else do you suppose makes Bazarov likeable to Arkadii?``


Reply: Bazarov represents the new form of thinking. This would be a time, in the lives of these two young men, when they feel the need to reject the old ways and rebell against them.


A good reply.

Both were students at a time when scholars were preaching socialism and a new order in Europe. As they pass by cart through an impoverished village, Arkady reflects in this manner:

``"It's a pity about the forest," said Arkady, and began to look around him.

The country through which they were driving could not possibly be called picturesque. Field after field stretched right up to the horizon, now gently sloping upwards, then slanting down again; in some places woods were visible and winding ravines, planted with low scrubby bushes, vividly reminiscent of the way in which they were represented on the old maps of Catherine's times. They passed by little streams with hollow banks and ponds with narrow dams, small villages with low huts under dark and often crumbling roofs, and crooked barns with walls woven out of dry twigs and with gaping doorways opening on to neglected threshing floors; and churches, some brick-built with the stucco covering peeling off in patches, others built of wood, near crosses fallen crooked in the overgrown graveyards. Gradually Arkady's heart began to sink. As if to complete the picture, the peasants whom they met were all in rags and mounted on the most wretched-looking little horses; the willows, with their broken branches and trunks stripped of bark, stood like tattered beggars along the roadside; lean and shaggy cows, pinched with hunger, were greedily tearing up grass along the ditches. They looked as if they had just been snatched out of the clutches of some terrifying murderous monster; and the pitiful sight of these emaciated animals in the setting of that gorgeous spring day conjured up, like a white ghost, the vision of interminable joyless winter with its storms, frosts and snows . . . "No," thought Arkady, "this country is far from rich, and the people seem neither contented nor industrious; we just can't let things go on like this; reforms are indispensable . . . but how are we to execute them, how should we begin?" ``


Arkady is someone with great feeling, great empathy for those who suffer. His father owns serfs and is responsible for some of this imposed pain. But Barzov and his ideals promises reformation and betterment for those victims. Thus, he gives Arkady hope and a newer, better vision for the future.

[hellsapoppin]

``Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? ``


Arkady's father views himself as having an enlightened view of serfdom. If I recall correctly (I read the book about 2 years ago) he abated certain tributes or taxes and has relieved them of certain work obligations. But they are still serfs to him!

By contrast, Bazarov rejects all theories (new or old) about serfdom. As a nihilist, he regards all men as equals and he is fully receptive to all whether rich man, poor man, beggar man, etc. ''A nihilist is a person who does not bow down to any authority, who does not accept any principle on faith, however much that principle may be revered." But he accepts people as they are: ''In a few minutes Bazarov had explored all the little paths in the garden; he went into the cattle yard and the stables, discovered two farm boys with whom he made friends at once ... Bazarov, who had a special capacity for winning the confidence of lower-class people''.

To Bazarov the nihilist, principles mean nothing - people are all that matter.

[bazarov]

Do you think Bazarov changes in the novel? I actually found him to be somewhat of a flat character. He grows a little bit in the end, but his character doesn't change that much.

No, not too much, actually; he just shows his ''human'' side.

You're right that Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

He is not cold; there was no one to warm him up before he met Odintzova. He acted in his nihilistic style, carrying for nobody.

Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names. I'm still not convinced Bazarov is the center of the story, though. When you say that Bazarov is the main character, I think you may be confusing conflict with plot. Baz does push the story to crisis. Ultimately, though, the crisis is Arkadii's.

Not necessarily. Especially since we encounter Evgeny's dad later in the novel. The patronymic, Vasilyevich (however you want to spell it), is the fathers first name (Vasily) with -evich attached on the end. Therefore, it is quite easy to remember all of these. You just have to keep in mind the payronymics and you'll be set.

...or -ovich; so

Arkady Nikolayevich Kirsanov
Nikolay Petrovich Kirsanov
Pavel Petrovich Kirsanov
Ana Sergeyevna Odintzova

I will stop here...

Even when he dies, they are still talking about him. He is the representative model of nihilist, because Arkady obviously isn't.

I think somebody's a little biased.

Could it be his name-sake?

No, why...

I'm having a hard time seeing Arkadii as a yo-yo or not smart, not liberal, and not open minded, and there really isn't any evidence to suggest he is these things.

I am just saying he is not a nihilist!

He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

They are nihilists. Their theory is that everything is wrong but they don't give any solutions for solving it. Check first conversation between youth and elders.

[hellsapoppin]

Their theory is that everything is wrong but they don't give any solutions for solving it.


Precisely.

In his prolonged and often hostile discussion with Pavel, Bazarov is challenged thusly:

'' 'you became convinced of all this and decided not to undertake anything seriously yourselves'

'We decided not to undertake anything'

... ' And to confine yourselves to criticism?'

'And to confine ourselves to criticism'

'And that's called nihilism?'

''And that's called nihilism'. ''


All talk, no solutions. No wonder nihilism went kaput.


Part X p 54 [The Modern Library Edition]

[hellsapoppin]

But Bazarov was not entirely devoid of some measure of practicality.

In his discussion with Pavel, he expressed admiration for Germanic pragmatism, especially their advancements in science and medicine. ''The Germans are our instructors in this ... The scientists there are sensible people ... A good chemist is twenty times as useful as any poet''.

Ch VI, pp 26, 27

In that time period, Bazarov would have been called a Westernizer as opposed to slavophiles. The former viewed Russia as too archaic and wished to have it modernized by adopting European standards. The latter argued that social salvation or advancement could have or should have been achieved by affirming traditional Russian values.

[Quark]

He is not cold; there was no one to warm him up before he met Odintzova. He acted in his nihilistic style, carrying for nobody.

Yeah, Mrs. Odintzova awakens something inside of Bazarov that he isn't exactly comfortable with. Does Baz learn anything from this, though? I wonder why he strikes out with both women he approaches? And, why does Turgenev make Baz so successful in certain situations and yet so hopelessly inept in others?

[hellsapoppin]

``why does Turgenev make Baz so successful in certain situations and yet so hopelessly inept in others?``

Perhaps it was because this illustrates that Bazarov, like other reformists of his time, was well intentioned, but doomed to failure. In this, Turgenev is accurately predicting doom for those reformists as happened to Decembrists and others from the previous generation.

[Janine]

Interesting discussion so far; I have been reading along and will comment this week - too tired out now from holiday preparations.
I just wanted to stop by and wish everyone a happy holiday season....

[bazarov]

Yeah, Mrs. Odintzova awakens something inside of Bazarov that he isn't exactly comfortable with. Does Baz learn anything from this, though? I wonder why he strikes out with both women he approaches? And, why does Turgenev make Baz so successful in certain situations and yet so hopelessly inept in others?

He learns, but it was too late; he died and had no time to use it.
Bazarov said that ''no woman is worth of his internal peace'', it was all some kind of joke. As a scientist, he was successful in things were only brain was needed, and when some normal human feelings were involved, he failed; there are no emotions in nihilism.

Perhaps it was because this illustrates that Bazarov, like other reformists of his time, was well intentioned, but doomed to failure. In this, Turgenev is accurately predicting doom for those reformists as happened to Decembrists and others from the previous generation.

Agree. Bazarov represents nihilism and Turgenev wanted to show through Bazarov's death how will those reformist movements in Russia end up. That's also a reason why Bazarov had to die, his death was inevitable.


Do you, after all consider Bazarov as a nihilist?

Thanks Janine, enjoy yourself too.

[Dori]

Do you, after all consider Bazarov as a nihilist?

It will help to have a definition of nihilism at hand. My book states that "[...] twentieth century nihilism came to signify deep existential doubt or the belief that life lacks meaning. However, that is not the nihilism of Fathers and Sons. In the novel, nihilism in the philosophical sense is a rejection of idealism and a willingness to believe only in what is provable by observation; in a political sense it is anti-absolutist, a rejection of the traditional social order and a reliance instread on scientific principles and practicality."

With regard to the above definition, I believe Evgeny Bazarov is a nihilist. I think Turgenev intended for him to be a nihilist (my book also states that "In a letter to the poet and editor K.K. Slutchevsky, Turgenev advises that when Bazarov calls himself a nihilist, the word should be read as meaning 'revolutionary'"). However, his nihilism is overcome at times by human emotions, namely love.

[hellsapoppin]

``Do you, after all consider Bazarov as a nihilist?``

Definitely. Especially since he specifically calls himself one.

But again, for all of his professed idealism, he is not totally without some measure of practicality: when he and Arkady discussed Mrs Odintsov he praised her practicality when she married a wealthy man (she had been let impoverished by her deceased father who was a gambler). ''Marrying a wealthy old man is not a strange thing to do. On the contrary, it makes perfect sense ... I'd like to think that it's justified'' {p 79}.

In his discussion with her, Bazarov discussed medicine and applied sciences while disdaining the arts. Mrs Odintsov readily held her own in that talk which lasted for three hours. Obviously, she was self educated and very enterprising - an attribute that was essential in the emerging and reforming society.


``Bazarov had to die, his death was inevitable``

Perhaps a spoiler alert is warranted. But yes, at bottom he was impractical owing to his standards and actions. By contrast, Mrs O took all that life had given her and accepted it as Fate. ''Order is essential in everything'' she said. ''Having no prejudices of any kind, or even strong convictions ... she'd seen many things clearly ... after all, tranquility is the best thing on earth''.


What could possibly have caused this big contrast in characterization?

Perhaps it is that Bazarov got his education in school, while Mrs O got hers in the school of hard knocks.

pp 91, 92, 109

[Pensive]

Just completed first five chapters (thanks goes to the online lit-net version of this book) So far, the story has been quite good, especially, things have started being interesting from the fifth chapter.

He has no faith in principles but he has faith in frogs.

- Pavel Petrovich about Bazarov

As I have only read a little bit of it, I don't think I shall judge Bazarov's character but till now he has seemed to me very cold, distant and even insolent, and a person that I liked reading about as a character but could not bring myself to like as a person I would have to say, but then my views might change later.

I wish I had started the novel a few days earlier, hope I can catch up with you guys.