Christmas Reading: "Fathers and Sons" by Turgenev

[Quark]

I went away for a few days when there wasn't much activity on the thread; and then, of course, as soon as I leave everyone comes back. Well, it will take me a moment to work through what everyone said, but I am glad that we got some discussion going.

Quark, did they actually say they both had just graduated? I thought I read that in the beginning. Since I am really busy decorating the house, etc...maybe you would be so kind to quote that passage for everyone's benefit.

I thought they did. Here, hold on, let me find it. Mrmhph... This book is heavy. It's not just Fathers and Sons; it's a twelve-hundred page hard cover anthology of Russian Literature. It's got everything from Goncharov to Tolstoy, and there is even some Russian art shoved in the middle. Hey look a glossy picture of a painting by some famous Critical Realist. Wow, my idea of perspective is so being changed. Now, to find Turgenev I need remember when Fathers and Sons was published (everything is ordered chronologically). I'm thinking it has to be after Dead Souls, but before Anna Karenina. I flip randomly and hope I find it, but, no, I'm still in Tolstoy country. Oh, oh, wait, I have it. Turgenev! Here we go. Scanning... Yes, I'm right. Turgenev writes, "He was waiting for his son, who'd just graduated." In my book, this is page 635, but I think the page numbers are a little skewed by the other twelve hundred pages of Russian Lit crammed around the novel.

I agree with your last two statements here. I think we will see some change in Bazorov's attitudes, as the second half of the story progresses.

Do you think Bazarov changes in the novel? I actually found him to be somewhat of a flat character. He grows a little bit in the end, but his character doesn't change that much.

Well, "The Ravine" is the title story for the audio cd set "The Ravine and other stories by Anton Chekhov", so it must be really good - the best one probably. It is narrated by Kenneth Branagh, so it should be something I would enjoy listening to; I would listen to him narrate the phone directory! He is a fine narrator and his "Richard III" is suberb, but that is with a full cast. Of what I heard so far of the audiobooks Chekhov stories, he does the whole cast and it is quite interesting/amusing.

I'm thinking about starting the Chekhov thread sometime in early January. I know everyone else is doing their's at the exact same time, but I don't want to wait any longer than I already have.

I believe Bazarov is a very charismatic individual. In chapter V, Bazarov "made friends [with two farm boys] at once, and set off with them to a small swamp about a mile from the house to look for frogs." This perhaps is a mild demonstration of his charisma, but I think it also attests to his good interpersonal skills (which also plays a part in attracting 'pupils') . He was also confident; in chapter II Turgenev writes of Bazarov, "He showed Nikolai Petrovich his whole face...it was lighted up by a tranquil smile, and showed self-confidence and intellegence."

So you're drawn to Bazarov, too? I think he is likable, at times. Particularly, when he's refuting the arguments of idiots. But, I don't know if that means he has good interpersonal skills. You're right that Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

Definitely not, Evegeniy Vasilyevich Bazarov is the main character, whole plot about traditionalism and nihilism is on his back, that little yo-yo is really useless.

Ha, I like Arkadii as a yo-yo. Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names. I'm still not convinced Bazarov is the center of the story, though. When you say that Bazarov is the main character, I think you may be confusing conflict with plot. Baz does push the story to crisis. Ultimately, though, the crisis is Arkadii's. He is the one that feels compelled to choose. I know "main character" is not really a literary term, but I think if we had to apply the vague phrase to anyone, it would be him.

In my opinion his only purpose is to reduce Arkady's possibility of free thinking and showing how Arkady cannot be a true nihilist and act in that way. HIs love to his father is too strong and he cannot control it like Bazarov can.

I'm starting to agree with you. Originally, I thought Arkadii's decision was between Bazarov and Pavel. Yet, that doesn't really make any sense since Arkadii only pities Pavel. Really, the father is the other option for Arkadii. He has to decide whether to accept the radical doctrines of Bazarov or have compassion for his father.

Have you finished the novel?

Yeah, it sounds like many of us are just rereading it.

[Janine]

I went away for a few days when there wasn't much activity on the thread; and then, of course, as soon as I leave everyone comes back. Well, it will take me a moment to work through what everyone said, but I am glad that we got some discussion going.

Yeah, active little thread, isn't it? Glad to see you back again, Quark.

I thought they did. Here, hold on, let me find it. Mrmhph... This book is heavy. It's not just Fathers and Sons; it's a twelve-hundred page hard cover anthology of Russian Literature. It's got everything from Goncharov to Tolstoy, and there is even some Russian art shoved in the middle. Hey look a glossy picture of a painting by some famous Critical Realist. Wow, my idea of perspective is so being changed. Now, to find Turgenev I need remember when Fathers and Sons was published (everything is ordered chronologically). I'm thinking it has to be after Dead Souls, but before Anna Karenina. I flip randomly and hope I find it, but, no, I'm still in Tolstoy country. Oh, oh, wait, I have it. Turgenev! Here we go. Scanning... Yes, I'm right. Turgenev writes, "He was waiting for his son, who'd just graduated." In my book, this is page 635, but I think the page numbers are a little skewed by the other twelve hundred pages of Russian Lit crammed around the novel.

I know those anthology books - first off, they are so heavy one would get arthritis in the arms, trying to hold one up to read. I made the mistake of picking up two of those, looked barely used, from my library 'freeby' shelf...no wonder someone got rid of them; who would want to lug these 2000 p. Literature anthologies to class?!
Thanks for that information, having to wade through all those authors to find it, and I will look up that later passage when the text mentions someone's exact age.

Do you think Bazarov changes in the novel? I actually found him to be somewhat of a flat character. He grows a little bit in the end, but his character doesn't change that much.

Too soon to say for me, since like I already stated - I read the book about 15-20 yrs ago...considering my feeble aging mind...I can't say exactly yet...I was just vaguely recalling a change in him, so so I thought...maybe not....*you can see I am a little befuddled on this point*

I'm thinking about starting the Chekhov thread sometime in early January. I know everyone else is doing their's at the exact same time, but I don't want to wait any longer than I already have.

Sounds good to me! I hope one of my stories gets picked. Did you read the two you said you had not yet read (my audiobook set)?

So you're drawn to Bazarov, too? I think he is likable, at times. Particularly, when he's refuting the arguments of idiots. But, I don't know if that means he has good interpersonal skills. You're right that Bazarov quickly befriends many of the people around him, but what do you suppose that means? I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

Quark, I agree with this. I don't think he has honed his interpersonal skills and I don't think he much cares either. He seems to befriend some but not all, he is completely selective, even to those he will treat curtiously. I thought on his first meetings with the father and uncle he was pretty arrogant and aloff and I can see how the father and uncle would form a curious impression of him from that first meeting (first impression). I don't feel he is capable of true friendship either - he is cold and detached. I think I recall feeling at the end that he was a person who was missing some element of his human feelings or just could not connect to them. Like I said I have a vague rememberance so I should wait and see before commenting, therefore don't quote me on these last sentences.

Ha, I like Arkadii as a yo-yo. Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names. I'm still not convinced Bazarov is the center of the story, though. When you say that Bazarov is the main character, I think you may be confusing conflict with plot. Baz does push the story to crisis. Ultimately, though, the crisis is Arkadii's. He is the one that feels compelled to choose. I know "main character" is not really a literary term, but I think if we had to apply the vague phrase to anyone, it would be him.

I don't know. I am a little kinder and don't like to equate or label people as yo-yo's. I thought Bazarov was referring more to the conversation we all were having about which character we felt we related personally to or identified with. I agree with you in that I am not sure Bazarov is central but I tend to think he is as was Iago in 'Othello'...just using that as an example and might be a ways off. I think all 4 of the main characters here are key characters and I am not sure we can name one the 'main character' of the book - they all are needed to balance out the ideas presented.

I'm starting to agree with you. Originally, I thought Arkadii's decision was between Bazarov and Pavel. Yet, that doesn't really make any sense since Arkadii only pities Pavel. Really, the father is the other option for Arkadii. He has to decide whether to accept the radical doctrines of Bazarov or have compassion for his father.

I think I agree also, with this idea.

Yeah, it sounds like many of us are just rereading it.

I am 're-reading', but my poor senile brain needs to be refreshed of the remainder of the plot. Like I already stated, my remembrance of the rest of the story is shadowy, to say the least. I just recall now a couple of key scenes. I will read more tonight and hopefully knock off a few more chapters, if I am not too tired.

[papayahed]

Definitely not, Evegeniy Vasilyevich Bazarov is the main character, whole plot about traditionalism and nihilism is on his back, that little yo-yo is really useless.


In my opinion his only purpose is to reduce Arkady's possibility of free thinking and showing how Arkady cannot be a true nihilist and act in that way. HIs love to his father is too strong and he cannot control it like Bazarov can.





He is everything what Arkady wants to be; smart, liberal and open minded. He made Arkady to stop think in old provincial way.

I think somebody's a little biased.

I'm having a hard time seeing Arkadii as a yo-yo or not smart, not liberal, and not open minded, and there really isn't any evidence to suggest he is these things. Arkadii, to me seems like a guy trying to find his own way in the world. Who wouldn't be attracted to Bazarov's philosophies at that age, "don't believe in authorities" It's a built in crowd pleaser. I'm only halfway through so that may change.

[Janine]

I think somebody's a little biased.

Could it be his name-sake?

I'm having a hard time seeing Arkadii as a yo-yo or not smart, not liberal, and not open minded, and there really isn't any evidence to suggest he is these things. Arkadii, to me seems like a guy trying to find his own way in the world. Who wouldn't be attracted to Bazarov's philosophies at that age, "don't believe in authorities" It's a built in crowd pleaser. I'm only halfway through so that may change.

Yes, I would have to agree with Papayahed here....
and I would like to add, that I don't think any of the characters are clearly good or bad, or right or wrong, nothing is clearly black or white; I just think all are human with human tendencies and weaknesses.

[Dori]

I just want to remark on something as it is quite late:

Also, it's impressive that you remember all three of Baz's names.

Not necessarily. Especially since we encounter Evgeny's dad later in the novel. The patronymic, Vasilyevich (however you want to spell it), is the fathers first name (Vasily) with -evich attached on the end. Therefore, it is quite easy to remember all of these. You just have to keep in mind the payronymics and you'll be set.

[grace86]

Hi guys! I am reading the novel but don't have time to reply. I just flew into Texas to be with my family for Christmas. But I should post when I have more time. Really enjoying it...hope to read more of these comments.

[Janine]

Hi guys! I am reading the novel but don't have time to reply. I just flew into Texas to be with my family for Christmas. But I should post when I have more time. Really enjoying it...hope to read more of these comments.

Hi Grace, great to see you here! Happy to see you are reading the book and enjoying it so. Hope you can find time to post some thoughts on it, too.
Have a great time with you family. Glad you had a safe trip.

[Scheherazade]

Started reading (only 5 chapters yet) but finding it hard to like Bazarov (no offence to our resident Bazarov here! )

I'm just wondering if I would have read it when I was in my early twenties/teens would I identify with Bazarov and Arcady moreso then the father/uncle.

Wondering the same thing too!

[Janine]

Started reading (only 5 chapters yet) but finding it hard to like Bazarov (no offence to our resident Bazarov here! )Wondering the same thing too!

Scheherazade, that is funny, when I started reading the book I read the first 5 chapters, too...they went by pretty quickly. I agree...I could not warm up to Bazarov in the first half of the book...he seemed so disrespectful to me of his elders and I found that a bit irritating. I am not sure now what I think of him; I am about half way done the novel.

[Quark]

I'm not even convinced that Bazarov is even capable of friendship. He's very cold and detached. Later in the novel you'll see how this part of his personality puts a strain on his relationships.

I agree with you in that I am not sure Bazarov is central but I tend to think he is as was Iago in 'Othello'...just using that as an example and might be a ways off.

finding it hard to like Bazarov (no offence to our resident Bazarov here!

Hmm, maybe we're being a little hard on Bazarov. Is he really Iago? Ouch. I was just trying to say that Baz, while being very intelligent and confident, is also distant and callous at times. We started out talking about why Bazarov was an attractive character. I just wanted to bring out what is unattractive about Bazarov.

[Alexei]

Scheherazade, that is funny, when I started reading the book I read the first 5 chapters, too...they went by pretty quickly. I agree...I could not warm up to Bazarov in the first half of the book...he seemed so disrespectful to me of his elders and I found that a bit irritating. I am not sure now what I think of him; I am about half way done the novel.

Exactly as I do I am currently on chapter 18 and I am not sure, but I think my opinion is going to be drastically changed. In fact I've read only the few first chapters before and I started seriously reading today, but I find it hard to leave the book. I was quite surprised when in the beginning I was more willing to identify myself with the older generation, although I am in my teens now, but it seems I am not the only one. Now I have only 100 pages left, so I am going to finish it

[Janine]

Hmm, maybe we're being a little hard on Bazarov. Is he really Iago? Ouch. I was just trying to say that Baz, while being very intelligent and confident, is also distant and callous at times. We started out talking about why Bazarov was an attractive character. I just wanted to bring out what is unattractive about Bazarov.

Hi Quark,no need to say "Ouch" - No, you took me all wrong. I did not mean he was like Iago (Iago is an extreme case). I just meant that, even thought the play is called "Othello", isn't the most interesting character Iago? He is the most complex and hard to figure out. I just mean this as an example of how one character can 'steal the show', so to speak. I think all eyes are turned to Bazarov and therefore, he does feel 'central' to the story and the plot and the ideas behind the story. If there was no Bazarov, there would be no story "Fathers and Sons". Can you see what I mean? There are many things about Bazarov that I find to be very unattractive. I am a 'people person' and I don't see this with Bazarov, sure he made friends with the young boys when he went to gather specimens but is that such an accomplishment; he talked to the peasants and they might have been the friendly ones there, but when it comes to his friend's own family members he has no social graces and seems insolent to me at times...really ignorant of their feelings. I, like several others have expressed, did not like him at all at first. He seemed to think he was 'above it all' and I don't take well to people such as that.

Yes, Alexei, isn't it something how one can't put the book down...a little easier for me this time around since I sort of know what is to come but when you don't you want to read on to see where the story will lead us. Turgenev really has a great way of pulling the reader in and keeping his/her attention. He is an easy author to read because he is so direct and does not draw out everything in endless detail. Even descriptive parts of the book are not long, but just right, in my opinion.

[Quark]

Exactly as I do I am currently on chapter 18 and I am not sure, but I think my opinion is going to be drastically changed. In fact I've read only the few first chapters before and I started seriously reading today, but I find it hard to leave the book. I was quite surprised when in the beginning I was more willing to identify myself with the older generation, although I am in my teens now, but it seems I am not the only one. Now I have only 100 pages left, so I am going to finish it

You may be the farthest into the book of any of us. I didn't know you were in you teens, though. I've seen you on a couple of other threads, and something made me think you were older. So you like the older Kirsanovs? I think I like the Nikolai more than I like Pavel. You feel for Nikolai in this book; Pavel is just too absurd of a character for me to really indentify with.

Oh, and Janine, sorry I misread your post there. I saw Bazarov and Iago in the same sentence, and I thought you were trying to villainize Bazarov--which would be kind of harsh. Now that I actually read what you're saying correctly, I think I agree with you. Bazarov does steal the show, at times. During the arguments with the parents, I'm far more interested in what Baz has to say than any of the other characters.

[papayahed]

I'm dying to talk about Bazarov at Madam Odintzov and his statement that all people are the same:

"People are like trees in a forest; no botanist would dream of studying each birch tree in detail"

"In a proper functioning society it woldn't matter a jot whether a man were stupid or intellegent, good or bad"

He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

[Quark]

I'm dying to talk about Bazarov at Madam Odintzov and his statement that all people are the same:

He back up those statements by saying that all men have the same spleen. He never mentions what a "proper functioning society" would be? I'm noticing he criticizes everything but hasn't given answers on how to make things right.

Do you want to talk about Baz's sayings philosophically or do want to consider them as part of Turgenev's characterization of Bazarov?