D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Virgil]

However, it is true that in the last lines of the story Lawrence does put forth that the she will have her next child with her husband and he uses the phrase 'fatal chain of continuity', which suggests a kind of irony to me or a cynicism - as though he is saying 'look how far Juliet has come only to continue in the same fatal chain of her existence'....strange, if you think of it. Is there then no true hope at the end of this story? I just wonder on this fact. It seems that to go witht the peasant would hardly be her answer and to go with the husband may not be her answer in her new goal to free herself of the bonds of civilization.

The last lines indicate that the bonds of civilization (as you beautifully and perfectly label it) are inevitable, "the fatal chain." It makes sense even from a biographical point of view. Remember this is Lawrence after he has developed his tuberculosis and is forced to go back to Europe. His ideal world that he wanted to create in the Americas must seem to him to be beyond human reach. It's quite possible he shed his vision of a utopia here.

[Janine]

The last lines indicate that the bonds of civilization (as you beautifully and perfectly label it) are inevitable, "the fatal chain." It makes sense even from a biographical point of view. Remember this is Lawrence after he has developed his tuberculosis and is forced to go back to Europe. His ideal world that he wanted to create in the Americas must seem to him to be beyond human reach. It's quite possible he shed his vision of a utopia here.

Thank you for you compliment on my wording.
Hey, Virg, I thought you always said the biography was not significant(?)...one has to separate the author from his work....just opposite what I usually do.
SO, I definitely agree with you (in referring to the biography of L) - yes he had to give-in and return to Europe, probably knowing 'subconsciously' that he was not long for this world, he knew his 'utopia' would never be realized in his lifetime.

[Dark Muse]

However, it is true that in the last lines of the story Lawrence does put forth that the she will have her next child with her husband and he uses the phrase 'fatal chain of continuity', which suggests a kind of irony to me or a cynicism - as though he is saying 'look how far Juliet has come only to continue in the same fatal chain of her existence'....strange, if you think of it. Is there then no true hope at the end of this story? I just wonder on this fact. It seems that to go witht the peasant would hardly be her answer and to go with the husband may not be her answer in her new goal to free herself of the bonds of civilization.

I think in someways it is a statement for life itself, and how many people are stuck in the drudge of life and romantize about past times that they imagine are more free and simplar, but they knew in the end there is no true escape, they may get a taste every now and then of that freedom, but in the end it will end and they will have to return.

[Janine]

I think in someways it is a statement for life itself, and how many people are stuck in the drudge of life and romantize about past times that they imagine are more free and simplar, but they knew in the end there is no true escape, they may get a taste every now and then of that freedom, but in the end it will end and they will have to return.

Dark Muse, It may be so, as you stated; I think we would all like to 'escape' sometimes and Lawrence, himself, made a noble effort to do so, but really he was not successful, in a physical sense. He still had to deal with the real world and have his work published. I think many artistic people especially are apt to want this escape and this drives them onto great things sometimes such as fine works of art and expression or to fine and wonderful writing. Perhaps that is why there have been in the past so many suicides by the very artistic writers such as Woolf and Plath and Edna St. Vincent Millay - just to name a few. I am sure visual artists as well and creative people. One sees the world and it is not so much to our total liking or sensibilities. We all have to look past that and own a world that we choose to and love it. In art and expression one can find solitude and peace I believe. I think Lawrence was a fine example of this. If he could not find his 'utopia' he wrote about it just the same and conveyed much to the world and to us. We have so many things to think about due to reading Lawrence. He inspired in each of us a notion of free thought. I think this is the important thing. I think Juliet looked beyond her so called 'normal' existence and embrassed the natural world and found it to be wonderous, and she knew this was the true spiritual world, even though she might have to return to the life she had known. Who knows, perhaps there could then be a compromise between her and her husband in the future. I like to look on the positive side and think she will exist and live in the her future and be transformed from her experience.

I think Lawrence did this himself. He never gave up on life and lived fully until the end of his existence. He fought such great odds with his terminal illness and yet he never gave into it and took as much as he could from life and perhaps from the sun. He had been transfigured himself and it would never depart him no matter where he traveled.

[amalia1985]

I think that what attracted me more in the story was the ending. The way I see it-and I think I have stated that previously in our thread-is that there is no absolute freedom. However, I look upon the ending in an optimistic manner, I think I would like to believe that there are some glimpses of Maurice's transformation.

[Janine]

I think that what attracted me more in the story was the ending. The way I see it-and I think I have stated that previously in our thread-is that there is no absolute freedom. However, I look upon the ending in an optimistic manner, I think I would like to believe that there are some glimpses of Maurice's transformation.

amalia, I could not have said that better. I fully agree with your assessment.

[jlb4tlb]

The last lines indicate that the bonds of civilization (as you beautifully and perfectly label it) are inevitable, "the fatal chain." It makes sense even from a biographical point of view. Remember this is Lawrence after he has developed his tuberculosis and is forced to go back to Europe. His ideal world that he wanted to create in the Americas must seem to him to be beyond human reach. It's quite possible he shed his vision of a utopia here.

Does any of the esteemed posters know of a good on line (print editions as well} bibliography of Lawrence's short stories. Knowing the time period of the stories writing can be extremely important. The same holds true in music, painting and other visual arts as well.

Jeff

[Virgil]

Does any of the esteemed posters know of a good on line (print editions as well} bibliography of Lawrence's short stories. Knowing the time period of the stories writing can be extremely important. The same holds true in music, painting and other visual arts as well.

Jeff

Unfortunately Jeff, no. I haven't found a perfect site. Wiki's entry is about as good as available. I think Cambridge has a site and University of Nottingham too. You might want to check them out. If you find a good web site, let me know.

edit: Cambridge doesn't haven't a Lawrence site at all. I was under the wrong impression.

[jlb4tlb]

I think in someways it is a statement for life itself, and how many people are stuck in the drudge of life and romantize about past times that they imagine are more free and simplar, but they knew in the end there is no true escape, they may get a taste every now and then of that freedom, but in the end it will end and they will have to return.

Dark Muse empresses the same feelings that I come away from it. Think of the times in your past that you dreamed of never leaving and settling down in that vacation spot, only to be pulled away to your "real World."

I am not sure if it is sad but it is reality.

Reading the various thoughts on the ending has been quite enjoyable.

Jeff

[Dark Muse]

I am not sure if it is sad but it is reality.

Reading the various thoughts on the ending has been quite enjoyable.

Jeff

To me it seems almost to be bittersweet, I do not know about others, but with me, when I am on vaccation there is always that part that is torn when it nears an end, on the one hand you wish sometimes you could just stand and it would never end, but another part does look forwrd to returning back to thinks you know and remember.

[Janine]

Does any of the esteemed posters know of a good on line (print editions as well} bibliography of Lawrence's short stories. Knowing the time period of the stories writing can be extremely important. The same holds true in music, painting and other visual arts as well.

Jeff

Jeff, do you mean a critical analysis of the stories or just a bibliography with timeline? I did buy one critical analysis book online from Amazon that deals with Lawrence's early fiction and this includes some of the early short stories, this would tell you the dates, as well. Other than that I would have to tell you to run a search through Amazon for Lawrence books and you may find one. I have about 22 books connected to Lawrence and a couple of borrowed books, on top of this. There is one book that deals with the time periods in particular; such as the years these stories were written and compares them to what Lawrence was doing at the time and/or where he resided. I think this book is now out of print, so one must search for a 'used' one online or at a used bookstore - good luck.
If you want I can list the two books I have just mentioned in this post. As far as free commentary or bibliograhy online, I don't think you will find this too readily, but you could try running a search in Google - you just never know what will surface. I have run many myself and found some very interesting sites; even some obscure ones by hunting back several pages in the listings. One is the Nottingham University site - which I have posted the address in these L threads several times now. It is wonderful for Lawrence's biographical information. Let me know if you can't find it, and I will re-post this link for you -it is a great site!

If you have any questions on Lawrence's biography I know quite a lot now, so does Virgil. I read three biographies and I am planning a 4th and 5th one soon. The man's life is totally fascinating.

[Virgil]

One more thing on the story "Sun." In his last work before he died (Apocalypse), a philsophic book that kind of explained a lot of his philosophy, Lawrence wrote the following:

Perhaps the greatest difference between us and the pagans lies in our different relation to the cosmos. With us, all is personal. Landscape and the sky, these are to us the delicious background of our personal life, and no more. Even the universe of the scientist is little more than an extension of our personality, to us. To the pagan, landscape and personal background were on the whole indifferent. But the cosmos was a very real thing. A man lived with cosmos, and knew it greater than himself.
Don't let us imagine we see the sun as the old civilisations saw it. All we see is a scientific little luminary, dwindled to a ball of blazing gas. ... We may see what we call the sun, but we have lost Helios forever, and the great orb of the Chaldeans still more. We have lost the cosmos, by coming out of responsive connection with it, and this is our chief tragedy. What is our petty little love of nature – Nature!! – compared to the ancient magnificent living with cosmos, and being honoured by the cosmos!
-- Apocalypse, V

I think he had this in mind as he wrote the short story a few years prior.

[Janine]

One more thing on the story "Sun." In his last work before he died (Apocalypse), a philsophic book that kind of explained a lot of his philosophy, Lawrence wrote the following:



I think he had this in mind as he wrote the short story a few years prior.

Thanks for posting this Virgil. As you know I read "Apocalypse" and I was actually quite fascinated with the book. This does explain more clearly Lawrence's affinity with the sun and his reasons for writing this short story.

To me it seems almost to be bittersweet, I do not know about others, but with me, when I am on vaccation there is always that part that is torn when it nears an end, on the one hand you wish sometimes you could just stand and it would never end, but another part does look forwrd to returning back to thinks you know and remember.

Dark Muse, Yes, I too felt there was an element of 'bittersweetness' in the ending, knowing things would not be as they were before, when Juliet could worship or bask alone in the sun freely with her child. I think, too, she had a kind of realm of privacy that she probably never felt she had before, and now she would feel had been invaded and would be lost. It is something like the feeling one gets at the end of a vacation knowing one must now return to the quote 'normal' world of existence. That was a good analogy. There is a certain let-down knowing the time away is nearing it's end.

[Janine]

Are we done with this short story "Sun"? I just wanted to say to Virgil that it was an excellent choice and I think we all seemed to like it very much. It was quite unique and different, being as a sort of long prose poem, in style. Will Lawrence cease to amaze us?

[Dark Muse]

Yes it was a good choice and I must thank Janine for making me aware of it and this discussion. I rather enjoyed this story and look forward to reading more.