If god is everything, doesn't that make him evil as well as good?

[mazHur]

GOD IS not EVIL.

Only in the Zoroastrian religion do we have god splitted into two: Ishwar---good god and Ehrman---god of evil. But, then, how many followers of that religion do you have in the world? Almost the same concept exists in the creed of magis.
Hinduism and Islam allocate good and bad characterstics or traits to God or Allah. For example , they say if god is kind and compassionate he's also at the same time avenging and destroyer. If you try to interpret these traits you will note that these relate to acts of god rather than god himself.

[crazefest456]

the so-called bad charachteristics associated with Allah are not truly "bad".
"The destroyer": Al-Mumit actually means one who brings death, meaning everyone's going to die one day. And death is necessary for us to move on to the after life, right?

[hellsapoppin]

``uh...how?``

See above.

[mazHur]

Oh, you catch my tongue. I gave just one example. Allah has 99 attributes. Check them out.

Allah says ''all that happens to you is from Me.'' How then then you explain that good and bad doesnt come from Allah?? Also, Allah says ""wa to zilla mantasha wato izzo mantasha"" (Quran) that is disgrace and honor is brought by ME'' ,,,,,,,,doesnt it mean all that happens is the outcome of various attributes of Allah or God??

[crazefest456]

disgrace and honor to people who deserve it, one of the 99 is "the Just"...
I still don't believe the 99 show any "bad"...I don't know..

[hellsapoppin]

According to the Koran 91:8, Allah creates all evil as well.

[crazefest456]

yes, it means he creates evil to give man and jinn the CHOICE.
it doesn't mean He himself is evil...

[mazHur]

Okay if He's not evil then where did evil come from?
How come Iblees have the guts to know before Allah created Adam that Adam would spread unrest in the world??

Poppin, how do you explain your point in ref to Quran
here is the verse quoted by you

http://www.thetruecall.com/home/Quran_Chapter_91:8.htm

poppin , you have given a patently wrong reference,
the site says
Transliteration Faalhamaha fujooraha wataqwaha
Abdullah Yusuf Ali And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Mufti Taqi Usmani then inspired it with its (instincts of) evil and piety,
Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.
Sahih International And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,
French et lui a alors inspiré son immoralité, de même que sa piété!
Japanese 邪悪と信心に就いて，それ（魂）に示唆した御方において（誓う）。
Russian и внушил ей порочность и богобоязненность!
Portugese E lhe imprimiu o discernimento entre o que é certo e o que é errado,
German und ihr den Sinn für ihre Sündhaftigkeit und für ihre Gottesfurcht eingegeben hat!

disgrace and honor to people who deserve it, one of the 99 is "the Just"...
I still don't believe the 99 show any "bad"...I don't know..

check out for the 99 attributes of Allah at this link:::

http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html

[crazefest456]

Okay if He's not evil then where did evil come from?
How come Iblees have the guts to know before Allah created Adam that Adam would spread unrest in the world??

1. Why does God need to embody whatever he creates? Is it necessary if he creates the clouds he needs to be a cloud (I don't believe in the idea of omnipresence, it degrades God).

2. Everyone knew, the Angels and the Jinns, about man's ability to choose between right and wrong, and how they have the ability to spread chaos. I must remind you that Iblees only became bad after he refused to acknowledge Adam as God's creation, which was after God created Adam. Can you explain how everyone's knowledge about man's capability explains why God is also evil?

Poppin, how do you explain your point in ref to Quran
here is the verse quoted by you

http://www.thetruecall.com/home/Quran_Chapter_91:8.htm

poppin , you have given a patently wrong reference,
the site says
Transliteration Faalhamaha fujooraha wataqwaha
Abdullah Yusuf Ali And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Mufti Taqi Usmani then inspired it with its (instincts of) evil and piety,
Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.
Sahih International And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,
French et lui a alors inspiré son immoralité, de même que sa piété!
Japanese 邪悪と信心に就いて，それ（魂）に示唆した御方において（誓う）。
Russian и внушил ей порочность и богобоязненность!
Portugese E lhe imprimiu o discernimento entre o que é certo e o que é errado,
German und ihr den Sinn für ihre Sündhaftigkeit und für ihre Gottesfurcht eingegeben hat!

umm.. I think poppin did give a right reference, it was just a poor translation...it means the same thing essentially.

check out for the 99 attributes of Allah at this link:::

http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html[/QUOTE]

okay, I did. The ones that you would assume that imply the God is "evil" might be these:
"1. Al-Malik

* The King, The Sovereign Lord, The One with the complete Dominion, the One Whose Dominion is clear from imperfection.
2. Al-Jabbaar

* The Compeller, The One that nothing happens in His Dominion except that which He willed.
3. Al-Qahhaar

* The Subduer, The Dominant, The One who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything.
4. Al-Qaabid

* The Constricter, The Retainer, The Withholder, The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdomand expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.
5. Al-Khaafid

* The Abaser, The One who lowers whoever He willed by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment.
6. Al-Muthil

* The Dishonorer, The Humiliator, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.
7. Al-Mateen

* The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.
8. Al-Mumeet

* The Creator of Death, The Destroyer, The One who renders the living dead.
9. Al-Mu'akh-khir

* The Delayer, the Retarder, The One who puts things in their right places. He makes ahead what He wills and delays what He wills.
10. Al-Muntaqim

* The Avenger, The One who victoriously prevails over His enemies and punishes them for their sins. It may mean the One who destroys them. "

I still feel that all these don't constitute evil. His divine understanding of our human nature, what we need right now and what we need later on, his perfect justice is all GOOD. I wish you'd point out which one's make him evil...

in the end, God knows.

[Etienne]

A common answer to the problem of evil is saint Augustine answer which is that evil is the absence of God. This has been a popular explanation and important figures of early Christian philosophy/theology like saint Augustine and Boethius have used this. I'm not so sure about what modern theology has to say about this, and while different theories have been put forward by Christian thinkers (I don't have much idea what have been the official positions of Churches, as a text might have been condemned at the time it was written but later it was made an official text and the writer made a saint, see Thomas Aquinas and many others) but one of the popular explanations was that God is the "premier moteur" (I tried to look for a translation of this term didn't find, it means basically "first cause"). The image of God as a watchmaker comes from this theory basically.

So God "programmed" everything to work correctly and free will sometimes stop working, and this causes evil. So to take again the image of the watch, God created it to work perfectly, but then some of the parts inside have free will, and can decide to stop working. "Not working" is not something, it's the lack of something. So God is everything that is, and evil is what is not.

But again the religious discourse in philosophy (this mean everything concerning logical method in religion) is not constant, and the early discourses are pretty clear cut, but as logic became more well-known and philosophers worked on religion, they found problems and flaws, but as they were almost all religious themselves (I'm not just referring to Christianity but Islam and Hebraism, which in religious philosophy is very much intertwined anyways), and when they were not (or if they were unorthodox) they had to act as if. So in the end to each problem, a solution HAD to be found if someone was to put forth the problem. So theology has become something that does not mean anything (in the Wittgensteinian sense of the term).

So the doctrines are made to look rigid, but since they don't really mean anything, one can find an interpretation to answer almost anything. And ultimately there is always the: God ways are mysterious. So applying a thoroughly logical method with a skeptical approach to religion is like trying to dig in a cloud.

[mazHur]

check out for the 99 attributes of Allah at this link:::

http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html

okay, I did. The ones that you would assume that imply the God is "evil" might be these:
"1. Al-Malik

* The King, The Sovereign Lord, The One with the complete Dominion, the One Whose Dominion is clear from imperfection.
2. Al-Jabbaar

* The Compeller, The One that nothing happens in His Dominion except that which He willed.
3. Al-Qahhaar

* The Subduer, The Dominant, The One who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything.
4. Al-Qaabid

* The Constricter, The Retainer, The Withholder, The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdomand expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.
5. Al-Khaafid

* The Abaser, The One who lowers whoever He willed by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment.
6. Al-Muthil

* The Dishonorer, The Humiliator, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.
7. Al-Mateen

* The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.
8. Al-Mumeet

* The Creator of Death, The Destroyer, The One who renders the living dead.
9. Al-Mu'akh-khir

* The Delayer, the Retarder, The One who puts things in their right places. He makes ahead what He wills and delays what He wills.
10. Al-Muntaqim

* The Avenger, The One who victoriously prevails over His enemies and punishes them for their sins. It may mean the One who destroys them. "

I still feel that all these don't constitute evil. His divine understanding of our human nature, what we need right now and what we need later on, his perfect justice is all GOOD. I wish you'd point out which one's make him evil...

in the end, God knows.[/QUOTE]


is it Muslim to deny omnipotence of Allah? Is he not Hazir-o-Nazir??

I didn't say Allah is evil,,,,Poppin has wrongly interpreted it. What i mean is that Allah created Man in his own image and gave him the Will to choose. It's the deeds of Men which go to his making evil, not Allah. But, It is perplexing when Allah says nothing not even a leaf can stir without his leave! Doesn't this indicate the existence of Fate (LOH)??
wama illaina illal balag!

[crazefest456]

is it Muslim to deny omnipotence of Allah? Is he not Hazir-o-Nazir??

I didn't say Allah is evil,,,,Poppin has wrongly interpreted it. What i mean is that Allah created Man in his own image and gave him the Will to choose. It's the deeds of Men which go to his making evil, not Allah. But, It is perplexing when Allah says nothing not even a leaf can stir without his leave! Doesn't this indicate the existence of Fate (LOH)??
wama illaina illal balag!

I was talking about omnipresence, not omnipotence....The belief that god is everything makes polytheism justifiable.

oops, sorry, I guess I got confused by who said what. Don't worry about the leaf thing. The belief that god allows us to make a choice is an ability he grants us. It doesn't mean that God closes his eyes while we commit vice, he accounts for every thing that we do cognitively...Don't worry at all about God, he's going to give everyone their respective "reward".

[browneyedbailey]

This is a bit of weird one I think. This came to me when I was reading a Philip K. Dick short story about something similer. This is purly hypothetical and I mean no offence.

If god is in everything and everyone, does that not make him as much an evil malevolent as a divine benevolent?

It just seems to me that evil is as much a thing as good; and something claimed to be everything must surely be both?

Thoughts on this random thought?

god is not evil.

[Thinkerr]

First of all God does not claim to be everything. Second it depends on your religion as to how you view God. There might be multiple gods in your religion, with some being bad and some good, or there might only be one supreme all-powerful God.

[weepingforloman]

mazHur: the examples you have chosen fail to totally portray Allah (to switch back to the general term, "God") as evil. They seem to focus around the idea that God causes bad things to happen to some people. If people were perfect and could not profit by suffering, then that would probably make Him evil. But the fact is that humans are imperfect and can be improved by trials. Therefore, trials sent by God are actually gifts, and expressions of His love and goodness.