Sons and Lovers

[Janine]

Yes, Miriam does think that Paul will return to her after he has wild sex with Clara. And, to an extent, she's right. Paul rapidly losses interest in Clara, and he passes her off to her original husband. When Paul returns to Miriam it is with a somewhat diminished sexual urge. Underneath, though, remains all the problems that plagued their relationship in the first place. A list in which sexual frustration rated fairly low.

Hi Quark, I read your post a day or so ago. Been trying to get back to it. So here I am at last!

I just got to your favorite scene in the woods with Clara and Paul. It seems more in implied when they go to tea as to what took place there in that ravine or whatever that odd space was - all muddy and some sort of a ledge in the tree trucks. This part I was a bit foggy about, but it is interesting to note, that one surmises what took place (now I am being very serious about this) from the way Paul's mood is so different afterwards - he is all aglow and playful with Clara, as he cleans her boots off - so that one knows his sexual anxiety has now been relieved. Writers today should take the que and not have to be so explicit in their descriptions - sometimes they really get annoying and crude. Of course, I don't know what is to follow this scene (?) and also I know that in "Lady Chatterly's Lover" Lawrence is much more explicitly expressive of this sexual union between woman and man. Of course, Quark, I realise you have not read it yet....ordering it online right now, are you? haha

So what you wrote above does make perfect sense to me. He has his little romps with Clara, that don't ultimately satisfy his greater self, and he is drawn back to Miriam. I had forgotten that part. I am just past the part, when he had broken off with her - I have to tell you that at the end of that chapter and that scene between them - I felt sad and even shed a small tear when the last line read in that chapter about Miriam remaining so alone and waiting. Of course, now I have gone beyond in the text and I am to the lighter/casual affair between Paul and Clara - those 'lascivious' parts. I can't wait to resume my reading tonight.

I have a few questions about the breakup passages, and interaction/conversation between Miriam and Paul, and their reactions to each other. Do you think that Miriam is truly telling the truth to Paul, when she says they never had a good day or a truly loving day; not her exact words but something like that? Then it totally devasts Paul to think that what he thought to be never actually existed between them.
I could see this two ways. The woman is feeling totally betrayed and therefore, turns the whole thing around, as a kind of 'emotional protection' for herself; also a way of being 'one up' on Paul. We woman tend to lash out or fight back at these times. I can see this breakup from another perspective, as well. Perhaps it is true and she is finally being totally honest with herself and with Paul. I don't doubt she does love him in a special way, and he her, as well, but I find this as confusing as a real life breakup and I feel like I can relate to this sort of thing, having lived through one that seemed similar in the dymanics of the conversation; one aspect being that it might be something that one knows is coming and cannot control and when the 'axe does finally fall' it seems 'shocking' and sudden, inspite of prior premonitions or feelings. This I think is what Miriam is experiencing at that point; she did know and believe deep, deep down, but failed to realise fully or 'consciously'; therefore, it all comes as a huge hurtful shock to her, when it does come. Even Paul questions later, when he has just told his mother, if he has seriously done the right thing.
This interaction between Miriam and Paul is much more fascinating to me, than it was on my first reading. I can see so much more in these few pages, that goes on between them. It seems so utterly true and real.

In that last quote of yours I agree with your last statement entirely - it was not just sexual incompatibility that caused the ultimate breakup of Miriam and Paul. They had a whole string of problems, that could not be worked out, if you think about it. They truly wanted different things in their future lives.

The second half is by far my favorite part. The first half is charming in its own way. I like the part where Mr. Morel storms out of the house but doesn't even make it to mailbox before he turns around. The problem with the first part has something to do with it's style. It reads like a work of dry realism, and Lawrence meets realism with only moderate success. He's far better with the more emotionally charged language he uses in the second half of the novel. The scene that Janine refers to is a perfect example. Now, being male, some people have a hard time believing that I, rugged manly figure that I am, would like emotional renderings of landscapes; but, actually, I do--that is, if they are well done. And, it's not just that the writing is moving or beautiful. It has more to do with the fact that it fits and improves the story. The writing isn't just meant to be sentimental; it's meant to express the characterization, conflict, and themes that guide the story. The second half does this far better than the first. Also, the characters are better. The portrait of Miriam in this story is very good.

I agree with all of this, Q, and I am especially pleased that the rugged manly figure that you are, you can still tap into your sensitive side and see how very beautiful and meaningful these passages are. And yes, not intended for sentimentality but for deeper meaning and reflections of the conflicts, themes, etc in the novel. It is all there for a purpose - Lawrence would not think in any other vain I am sure. Even that muddy decent into the woods by the river - I felt that red mud took on significance, didn't you. And the smashing of the vermillion red flowers certainly were suggestive and significant and representative of deeper meanings - perhaps Lawrence's 'blood philosophy'; I would certainly think it.

This is pretty good Janine. I hadn't thought about Miriam's mother's role in the Paul-Miriam relationship. I think your quotes are quite revealing. I had always thought that Miriam's prudishness was a result of her pretentiousness. I thought that she scorned sex as something low, and Miriam hates everything low because of her defensiveness about her social situation: a rural woman who is picked on by some of her family. I had never thought of the mother as such an influence, but it would make sense. If this is true, then you're right Paul and Miriam's sexual frustrations can be pinned on the older generation and possibly the greater society. Good thought, Janine

Q, Glad you liked it and consider it a possibility. I just got thinking of how influence woman can be by their mothers advice just as much as men, maybe even more so. Also sexual morality issues are at play here - nice girl verses bad girl. It would have been greatly frowned on for a young girl to say alone in the house with her boyfriend as Miriam and Paul did that night, or weekend, whatever. So I can't blame Miriam for being prudish. I don't think truly the woman is - she is just totally unexperienced and shy as well and she does not have the faintest idea of how to break out of this and her ingrained standards nor does she know if it is truly right to do so. She was definitely confused about her love to Paul and her place within that love.

Q, And yes - definitely the second half is the best half of the book but the first half also has some fine moments - like when the older brother dies.

[Quark]

I have a few questions about the breakup passages, and interaction/conversation between Miriam and Paul, and their reactions to each other. Do you think that Miriam is truly telling the truth to Paul, when she says they never had a good day or a truly loving day; not her exact words but something like that? Then it totally devasts Paul to think that what he thought to be never actually existed between them.

I remember Miriam saying something like that, and I was similarly confused because I thought they had numerable "good" days. I think we would have to look more closely at the motivation and context for this charge.

I could see this two ways. The woman is feeling totally betrayed and therefore, turns the whole thing around, as a kind of 'emotional protection' for herself; also a way of being 'one up' on Paul. We woman tend to lash out or fight back at these times. I can see this breakup from another perspective, as well. Perhaps it is true and she is finally being totally honest with herself and with Paul. I don't doubt she does love him in a special way, and he her, as well, but I find this as confusing as a real life breakup and I feel like I can relate to this sort of thing, having lived through one that seemed similar in the dymanics of the conversation; one aspect being that it might be something that one knows is coming and cannot control and when the 'axe does finally fall' it seems 'shocking' and sudden, inspite of prior premonitions or feelings. This I think is what Miriam is experiencing at that point; she did know and believe deep, deep down, but failed to realise fully or 'consciously'; therefore, it all comes as a huge hurtful shock to her, when it does come. Even Paul questions later, when he has just told his mother, if he has seriously done the right thing.

It does seem plausible, even probable, that Miriam would be defensive during break-up, and her claim is a pretty good emotional shield. And, characters in this story will often say something motivated by their own emotional needs. Yet, equally often, those things they say have some truth which lingers in the person they're aimed at. For example, Mrs. Morel casts all these oblique aspersions on her sons' girlfriends; and, while, yes the mother does say them selfishly, they do have some amount of truth in them. I wonder if Miriam's lament over their fruitless relationship has something genuine behind it. I think I need to go back and reread.

I agree with all of this, Q, and I am especially pleased that the rugged manly figure that you are, you can still tap into your sensitive side and see how very beautiful and meaningful these passages are. And yes, not intended for sentimentality but for deeper meaning and reflections of the conflicts, themes, etc in the novel. It is all there for a purpose - Lawrence would not think in any other vain I am sure. Even that muddy decent into the woods by the river - I felt that red mud took on significance, didn't you. And the smashing of the vermillion red flowers certainly were suggestive and significant and representative of deeper meanings - perhaps Lawrence's 'blood philosophy'; I would certainly think it.

Okay, now I'm really in the dark as to where you are in the book. I thought you were just after The Test of Miriam, but now it sounds like you're well into the Paul-Clara love affair. We desperately need to start using chapter names instead of mere saying, "You know that part in the second half where". I know where the Paul and Clara date scene is, but I'm having problems finding the Miriam quote we were talking about above.

Q, Glad you liked it and consider it a possibility. I just got thinking of how influence woman can be by their mothers advice just as much as men, maybe even more so. Also sexual morality issues are at play here - nice girl verses bad girl. It would have been greatly frowned on for a young girl to say alone in the house with her boyfriend as Miriam and Paul did that night, or weekend, whatever. So I can't blame Miriam for being prudish. I don't think truly the woman is - she is just totally unexperienced and shy as well and she does not have the faintest idea of how to break out of this and her ingrained standards nor does she know if it is truly right to do so. She was definitely confused about her love to Paul and her place within that love.

You think her prudishness was just nervousness and apprehension? I don't know. I think she was genuinely prudish since she remains so throughout the entire story--even after they break the sexual ice.

Q, And yes - definitely the second half is the best half of the book but the first half also has some fine moments - like when the older brother dies.

Yeah, that is probably the most moving part of the first half. William's failed marriage is also very well done. It's like a condensed version of the second half.

[Janine]

I remember Miriam saying something like that, and I was similarly confused because I thought they had numerable "good" days. I think we would have to look more closely at the motivation and context for this charge.

Hey, Quark, I am sorry leaving you hanging like this. I was trying to get back here for days now, since I appreciated that you had answered my post so well; I got tied up in "Sons and Lovers" thread debating a few things.

It does seem plausible, even probable, that Miriam would be defensive during break-up, and her claim is a pretty good emotional shield. And, characters in this story will often say something motivated by their own emotional needs. Yet, equally often, those things they say have some truth which lingers in the person they're aimed at. For example, Mrs. Morel casts all these oblique aspersions on her sons' girlfriends; and, while, yes the mother does say them selfishly, they do have some amount of truth in them. I wonder if Miriam's lament over their fruitless relationship has something genuine behind it. I think I need to go back and reread.

Quark, I think this assessment of yours in so well stated and accurate. I like both parts - about Miriam's reaction and about how oblique (good word!) Mrs. Moral's opinions about Paul's girlfriends actually are. And in both cases, both woman do sometimes say bits of truth. Like wasn't Paul acting immature and Miriam called him a 4 yr old? Also, somethings Mrs. Morel says I might have said myself as a mother concerned about her son. Some are normal mothering and advice/opinion, and some go past the limit.

Okay, now I'm really in the dark as to where you are in the book. I thought you were just after The Test of Miriam, but now it sounds like you're well into the Paul-Clara love affair. We desperately need to start using chapter names instead of mere saying, "You know that part in the second half where". I know where the Paul and Clara date scene is, but I'm having problems finding the Miriam quote we were talking about above.

I am beyond the 'Test of Miriam' chapter now...quite beyond it. The quote I think was just at the end of that chapter - 'Test of Miriam'. It was in the last couple of pages.

In the other scene, I was referring to Clara's and Paul's first encounter, in a sexual sense, in the woods, by the stream; then afterwards Paul cleans off mud from her boots; then they go somewhere for tea and a lady loves how gay they seem and gives Clara some flowers. This chapter follows the other mentioned and is called 'Passion'.

Hey, Q, I would think you could locate these easily or at least the 'Passion' one - it must be solid double lined passages in your book!

You think her prudishness was just nervousness and apprehension? I don't know. I think she was genuinely prudish since she remains so throughout the entire story--even after they break the sexual ice.

I guess from a woman's perspective, I differ, in my point of view, on that idea of her being prudish. You see, I think it was due to her upbringing that she appears to be 'prudish'. Why do men always use that catch phrase, anyway? The girl believed and had scrupples and 'values' that were different than Paul's. Perhaps, as Lawrence pointed out, either in another story or in real life (I forget which I read now) he could have brought her through it to the other side, freed her, had they stayed together. Either he was talking about Jessie or the character in another story we read - maybe 'The Shades of Spring' - I will check my books on that. I may have read it in a letter Lawrence wrote concerning the model for Miriam, Jessie. All this, of course, is just conjucture for now, so don't quote me on it. Just a thought - that is all.

Yeah, that is probably the most moving part of the first half. William's failed marriage is also very well done. It's like a condensed version of the second half.

Yes, truly a moving moment, but there were other values to the first half. It built up to the romance part of the story, so that I feel the entire book was well structured, and the first part paced differently on purpose. Perhaps, the second half reflects the fury or a young man's passions, so the pace of the book moves along more rapidly and is more interesting in the second half.
I am sure you have more double underlined words in that half.

[Janine]

Hi everybody, anybody, I am back! Seems this thread is fading into the mist. I am nearly done reading the book and soon would like to discuss the ending and some of the prior chapters with anyone....hello...anyone out there still interested in S&L's???......where is Quark? He must be busy with his applications for his Masters, was it? I forget what he told me now.

Well, maybe someone else will jump in, when I post some remarks on the last couple of chapters.

Too busy for comments now but hoped to revive this thread a bit just by saying I am still interested in some bit of discussion. Let me finish up the book, I am close.

[manolia]

Ready to discuss the ending Janine, when you are ready too

[Janine]

Ready to discuss the ending Janine, when you are ready too

manolia, great! Good to see you here again. Gee, I put out a cry for help and you responded - how nice.

I only have a dozen more pages to go till the ending. Give me a few days and I will be back to discuss it, today I am not feeling really well; I think I am just overly tired out. Not on Thursday, either - that is our Thanksgiving Day and we are all going to my son's in-laws for a turkey dinner. Probably around Friday would be good. See you then, hopefully.

Thanks for responding, so that this thread did not fade into infamy! haha

[Quark]

Hi everybody, anybody, I am back! Seems this thread is fading into the mist. I am nearly done reading the book and soon would like to discuss the ending and some of the prior chapters with anyone....hello...anyone out there still interested in S&L's???......

We never really talked about the end very much. I would like to hear what people think about it. Is Paul in a better place at the end? What do we learn about Paul after his mother's death? Are Clara and Baxter a good couple? Or, is it a marriage of convenience (it's embarrassing how many attempts it took me to spell that word correctly)?

where is Quark? He must be busy with his applications for his Masters, was it? I forget what he told me now.

It's probably going to be another week or so until I can start posting regularly. Right now, I'm trying to come up with a writing sample that will live up to the expectations of an admissions committee. Most people simply give them a paper they wrote for an undergraduate class, but my university didn't just fail to teach us how to do research--they actively discouraged it. So, rather than have these schools think I'm woefully unprepared for academic work, I'm writing a new paper. It will be done soon, though, and I hope to come back to LitNet eventually.

[Janine]

Hey Quark, don't worry about it. I am still reading the book! Now tonight I should actually complete it.
Did it really take you a long time to spell 'convenience'?....hahaaha ...join the club; neither I, nor Virgil can spell worth a darn. I think I get the 'prize' this time for the slowest reader on here. I have been so very slowly reading this book and I can't recall it taking this long, the first time around. After this is done I think I need a break. I am getting really tired and burned out again....it may be a case of brain freeze coming on.

manolia is wanting also to discuss the ending. You bring up some good questions and I will think about them tonight, promise. Of course, with L's characters, which are so multi-layered these are not easy to answer. Maybe manolia has some ideas to start with, until I finish up my reading. I only have a couple of pages now, but my eyes would not remain open last night, to complete the book, so I had to give in to sleep.

Good luck with your paper. I know what you mean, so many colleges do fall short of helping students after they graduate - like in the real world. It is quite distressing. I think you will do just fine. You always express yourself so well on here and you write very lucidly and you articulate well.... and sometimes you can actually spell.

[Janine]

Hi everyone, I have a huge apology to make to everyone, since I have been quite vacant from this thread for too long now. I did finish the book about a week ago. Wow - what a book, eh? I think this is one of the very finest books I have ever read. I started to listen to an audiobook of "Women in Love" and I got quite mesmerized by it. I feel like it is a whole different book and I am noticing things I had not prior picked up in my own reading - strange. I will post in that thread soon to comment on a few things I noticed in Chapter 3 that I felt of great interest.
I would like now to discuss the ending with everyone of this novel - "Sons and Lovers'. If anyone would like to jump in and say anything I would be interested in these points towards the ending:

First off, I did not know before, exactly what critics meant when they said that 'Paul's mother simply gave up and then she died. I now realise that she ignored her tumor for months and did not reveal how ill she was; in a sense 'giving up' on life. Was this just denial or a actual 'death wish'? Now, I'm curious to know of your opinions on this aspect of the story.

I also wondered about Clara - she claimed she did not love here husband, but then she returns to him - is this because she feels she can have the 'whole' of him and not 'part', as with Paul and is it also, out of the fact, that her husband truly 'needs' her? I felt at the end, that roles were somewhat exchanged with Miriam, in that Clara gave herself up as a 'sacrifice' to her husband, and therefore abandoned her own independence from him and her free will, in terms of relationships. I found her to be a sad character.

Lastly, I wondered how everyone felt about the fact, that Paul took it on himself, after convering with his sister, to administer the overdose of morphia to his mother. Do you think his mother knew when she drank the bitter milk or suspected? I personally believe he did the right thing, but oddly enough the mother took sometime to pass away, which was a very sad and devastating scene and very realistic, as well. I can see how one would love another so much to aid in putting them to rest and out of their misery; but of course, this raises all kinds of 'moral' issues, too. I don't know if we can realistically go into much about this aspect of the book in this forum. I would think at the time this book was written it would have caused quite a stir with the public, this one issue. I think Lawrence was brave to include this in his book and so close to completing the book, knowing in his heart it was indeed a masterpiece of writing, and this could censor it with publishers.

[manolia]

Janine i agree with what you say about Clara. While i was reading this part, where she returns to her husband i kept thinking that she returns to a safer harbor . After all security is very important in a relationship and for some people it is more important than..let's say..passion or even love.
I'll have to think about the other two points you made

[Janine]

Janine i agree with what you say about Clara. While i was reading this part, where she returns to her husband i kept thinking that she returns to a safer harbor . After all security is very important in a relationship and for some people it is more important than..let's say..passion or even love.
I'll have to think about the other two points you made

Himanolia, I do so agree but still it seems strange. Another thing is that so often I noticed that Paul kept questioning Clara about if she made the husband the way he was. Considering Paul's own family dynamics this struck me as curious - did Paul's mother make his father the way he was?

Anyway, glad you saw my posts and addressed them today. I revised a few things in my last paragraph so that it would read clearer and be more understandable, as to what I was trying to express.

I also just thought of another thing. I would like very much to discuss the befriending of Paul to Clara's husband. I felt that they two shared a sort of misery at the time they really got friendly - Paul with his mother and the husband seeming to give up on life. I hope all of you have good comments on these two and why you think that Paul turned the tables to seek out the man and become as a friend. Not sure I have explained all this correctly but I think you all know what I mean and the passages I refer to.

[Virgil]

You know I always loved the last paragraphs of Sons and Lovers. Here they are:

He shook hands and left her at the door of her cousin's house.
When he turned away he felt the last hold for him had gone. The town,
as he sat upon the car, stretched away over the bay of railway, a
level fume of lights. Beyond the town the country, little smouldering
spots for more towns--the sea--the night--on and on! And he had no
place in it! Whatever spot he stood on, there he stood alone.
From his breast, from his mouth, sprang the endless space, and it
was there behind him, everywhere. The people hurrying along the
streets offered no obstruction to the void in which he found himself.
They were small shadows whose footsteps and voices could be heard,
but in each of them the same night, the same silence. He got off
the car. In the country all was dead still. Little stars shone high up;
little stars spread far away in the flood-waters, a firmament below.
Everywhere the vastness and terror of the immense night which is
roused and stirred for a brief while by the day, but which returns,
and will remain at last eternal, holding everything in its silence
and its living gloom. There was no Time, only Space. Who could say
his mother had lived and did not live? She had been in one place,
and was in another; that was all. And his soul could not leave her,
wherever she was. Now she was gone abroad into the night, and he
was with her still. They were together. But yet there was his body,
his chest, that leaned against the stile, his hands on the wooden bar.
They seemed something. Where was he?--one tiny upright speck of flesh,
less than an ear of wheat lost in the field. He could not bear it.
On every side the immense dark silence seemed pressing him, so tiny
a spark, into extinction, and yet, almost nothing, he could not
be extinct. Night, in which everything was lost, went reaching out,
beyond stars and sun. Stars and sun, a few bright grains, went spinning
round for terror, and holding each other in embrace, there in a
darkness that outpassed them all, and left them tiny and daunted.
So much, and himself, infinitesimal, at the core a nothingness,
and yet not nothing.

"Mother!" he whispered--"mother!"

She was the only thing that held him up, himself, amid all this.
And she was gone, intermingled herself. He wanted her to touch him,
have him alongside with her.

But no, he would not give in. Turning sharply, he walked
towards the city's gold phosphorescence. His fists were shut,
his mouth set fast. He would not take that direction, to the
darkness, to follow her. He walked towards the faintly humming,
glowing town, quickly.


THE END

The way Lawrence uses the image of the town as the place to rebell against and escape, while still bound as a bond to civilization has always seemed like the ideal ending of a novel about a young person. So much angst and anger and frustration is expressed beautifully here. The whole experience has fractured his mental state. The women, his mother's death, he has entered the world of adulthood, and it's not an easy transition. So much of his upbringing, his family and culture comes from there, yet "his fists are shut and his mouth set fast." Wow! I love those paragraphs.

[jlb4tlb]

You know I always loved the last paragraphs of Sons and Lovers. Here they are:


The way Lawrence uses the image of the town as the place to rebell against and escape, while still bound as a bond to civilization has always seemed like the ideal ending of a novel about a young person. So much angst and anger and frustration is expressed beautifully here. The whole experience has fractured his mental state. The women, his mother's death, he has entered the world of adulthood, and it's not an easy transition. So much of his upbringing, his family and culture comes from there, yet "his fists are shut and his mouth set fast." Wow! I love those paragraphs.

When I first read "Sons And Lovers" I had to reread the ending a few times to have it sink in. Then the most interesting idea came to be. Paul at this point is only a few steps away from Alan Bates land.

Jeff

[Janine]

When I first read "Sons And Lovers" I had to reread the ending a few times to have it sink in. Then the most interesting idea came to be. Paul at this point is only a few steps away from Alan Bates land.

Jeff

Wasn't Alan Bates the mama's boy/son/slasher in the Hitchcock film 'Pyscho'? You know I have never actually seen that film and I love Hitchcock. Jeff, I don't think sooooo......come now.....but you did make me laugh

Are we having fun yet???

You know I always loved the last paragraphs of Sons and Lovers. Here they are:


The way Lawrence uses the image of the town as the place to rebell against and escape, while still bound as a bond to civilization has always seemed like the ideal ending of a novel about a young person. So much angst and anger and frustration is expressed beautifully here. The whole experience has fractured his mental state. The women, his mother's death, he has entered the world of adulthood, and it's not an easy transition. So much of his upbringing, his family and culture comes from there, yet "his fists are shut and his mouth set fast." Wow! I love those paragraphs.

Virgil,I thought that last part of the novel was beautifully and expressively written, as well; so full of deep meaning. This last part was completely true to life and how a youth would feel at that point. The last lines are amazing and they just tell all, with the 'shut fists' and the 'mouth set fast' - one can picture so much going on inside a person with those expressions just at that significant moment of letting go of ones past and youth. I just recall after reading this last part, closing the book slowly and saying - wow, this was a truly great book I experienced. It wasn't just a story, it was more of an 'experience' that I will never forget. It's intimacy truly touched me in a way no other novels have before. It seemed so truthful and honest.

[amalia1985]

I agree with Manolia regarding Clara, safety is something precious these days, and I am in favor of this attitude in certain occassions.

Regarding Paul's mother, I agree with Janine. I would do the same for my mother, although there are certain moral reservations which I respect. I admit I would think twice, but I would probably end up doing what Paul did. I am not sure whether his mother knew, she was a clever woman, perhaps she realised it, but as Janine said it was a frightful ending. I remember having the desire to skip these pages, I felt so disturbed and sorry for the woman at that point.

Now, regarding the mother's wish to die? I don't know, honestly, I wouldn't agree. Perhpas the fact that she ignored the tumor was a denial to admit that there was something wrong.