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Thread: Saint John in Jane Eyre

  1. #16
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    Rebuttal 5

    Rebuttal 5
    Servant and Servitude.

    Permit me to disagree with the meaning in your 04-22-2007 note:
    Quote Originally Posted by dirac1984 View Post
    ....anyway, you have your evidence, i have my evidence.
    Evidence as fact is the text of Jane Eyre, only the words and phrases, in context, not suppositions what Charlotte meant. Interpretation of the text is but opinion and unless very carefully buttressed by example, displaying the prejudices of the interpreter.
    You wrote that your interpretation of St. John and Jane Eyre is based on “interpretive textual analyses and content analysis” however all the examples that you cited were taken out of context and at variance with the meaning of the phrases in the full text. Let me illustrate by example of a bedtime story – A fox was very hungry when he spied a duck. I shall jump into the pond, kill the duck and have a good meal. But the fox couldn't swim as fast as the duck and the duck escaped. Did you like the story? –
    If I claim that “I shall kill you” as textual analysis, I would be laughed at in an academic environment. I will use a last example from your note of Saint John in Jane Eyre, 04-19-2007.
    The interpretation is on the relationship of servant and servitude between St. John and Jane. “We can see that though Jane has a good relationship with his sisters, Saint John still unconsciously considers Jane in a servitude position.” and you quote the following as justification, “Saint John said the following sentences first: “as you seemed both useful and happy here”, “render yours necessary.” Notice two words in his sentences, “useful and necessary”. Useful is seldom used to describe people except when the person talked about is in a position of servitude which is in essence the same as other material tools in the master’s eyes. Necessary is also diction of servitude.”
    Chapter 30,
    "Yes; I wish to know whether you have heard of any service I can offer myself to undertake?"

    "I found or devised something for you three weeks ago; but as you seemed both useful and happy here--as my sisters had evidently become attached to you, and your society gave them unusual pleasure--I deemed it inexpedient to break in on your mutual comfort till their approaching departure from Marsh End should render yours necessary."

    To take the connotation of “useful” as implied of servitude is a gross misreading of the text where it is used to suggest sympathy for Jane's desire of independence. The same applies to “necessary” as taken out of context.
    To read into Jane's opinion that Hannah position as a servant was degrading as per:
    “Hannah, the servant, was my most frequent visitor”. In fact before she reached the moorhouse, she had been trying to find a job as a servant. She felt it was degrading.”.....” She understands well that in moorhouse she is in the position of servitude at least in Saint John’s eye.”
    is to overlook that in 19th. century England a servant was a free man/woman and under no legal obligation to the employer. He/she was paid a wage, and while it was minimal, the position was not viewed as degrading, where a beggar is, as stated in the novel. This is the social context in which Charlotte wrote. To project the status of a servant to Imperial Rome, where a servant was a slave or to historic China, where a servant at best was an indentured person, is misleading, especially writing for a thesis.
    In the incident where Jane demands of St. John the source of the letter of legacy, “Jane for the first in their conversation speaks in imperative tone. “Stop one minute!”” she even exclaims:” No; that does not satisfy me!” she demands further, using the following strong tone. “You certainly shall not go till you have told me all,” “You shall! — you must!”
    What’s more, Jane at this point mentions her sexual identity with confidence. When Saint John insists on telling her afterward, and says” But I apprised you that I was a hard man,” she claims that” I am a hard woman, — impossible to put off.” We should take notice of this interesting exchange of utterances. When Saint John says he is a hard man, he in fact has some sense of pride in claiming this fact. Jane consciously uses “woman” to counteract his pride. In using woman in parallel with man, Jane is declaring her equal standing with Saint John now.”
    I quite agree that the exchange between St. John and Jane illustrates her sense of equality but what has changed in the previous view of Jane's servitude? The newly inherited wealth? Unlikely as the knowledge was but recently acquired. This inconsistency emphasizes that dirac1984's reading is unsound. Jean Eyre experience of social hierarchy is complex and that of Mr. Brocklehurst, Rochester and St. John can not be equated under the premise of Slave-Master Power Relationship. Brocklehurst and St. John are very different characters and can not be interchanged in Jane's chronology of growth as an independent woman. While both are religious caricatures, St. John's position is that of a pastor, hieratic in the sense that of a parent or a teacher, not that a tyrant, while the conflict between Jane and Rochester is primarily in the view of bigamy. Rochester's view is that he is exempt from the constrain while Jane feels the full force of social approbation. It is important to note that at the conclusion Jane rejects both St. John's norms and those of Victorian society when she goes in search of Rochester not knowing that Bertha is dead. The famous words: “I married him.”, and not 'I was married' or 'He married me' emphasizes Jane's going past the Victorian norms, while the acceptance of the wife/husband relationship, the willing acceptance of the same norms.
    I will close with the cited argument of colonialism as per 04-21-2007 post:
    “finally, i have to admit that my interpretation of st john is nevertherless influencd by my sense of history of china which had suffered a lot from western bully. so i maybe too sensitivee towards the hierarchy and the feeling of being suppressed. however, i have to say i have no intention to distort the text. i maintain that my analysis is valid.”
    The word colonialism or colonial does not occur in the text. The concept is not in Charlotte's conception of Jane Eyre. It is though often cited in connection with Wide Sargasso Sea, often cited by feminists as a prequel of Jane Eyre. It is ironic that Jean Rhys view was:”Toward the West Indian mulatto and Black Others, the Creole demonstrates a sense of proprietorship that allows for the appropriation and recruitment of "race" as an accessory of power and a trope of otherness.” and “An unidentified black is a source of menace and a threat to Antoinette.. . .in much of Rhys's writing there exists only the Manichaean division of "good blacks"--those who serve--and "bad blacks"--those who are hostile, threatening, unknown. . .. the relationship [between Tia and Antoinette] is based on the production of difference through the racialist stereotypes of the hardy, physically superior, animallike, lazy negro. . .[lazy black--sleep after eating] and the sensitive whilet child, on the other hand, contemplates nature, seduced by the "reve exotique." “, and not that of Charlotte Bronte.
    To view the injustice of English colonialism of the 19th. century, and nobody will dispute the Opium War, from the Chinese historical perspective and to ignore the 20th. century colonialism of occupation of Tibet, the whole scale destruction of the cultural heritage, is in my view rather selective to say the least. This subject has no place in analysis of Jane Eyre.
    Virginia Woolf had it correct - “.In other words, we read Charlotte Bronte not for exquisite observation of character--her characters are vigorous and elementary; not for comedy--hers is grim and crude; not for a philosophic view of life--hers is that of a country parson's daughter; but for her poetry.”

  2. #17
    Woman from Maine sciencefan's Avatar
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    Well-said, Newcomer.

  3. #18
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    Wink for such a long essay...

    It would help read such a long essay if you could please (in the future) indent. I am sure more people would read it if it were easier to read from the computer screen.

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    how is st.jone's sense of duty different from janes?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by xoLOVExo View Post
    how is st.jone's sense of duty different from janes?
    In a nutshell, I think both of them have a sense of duty based on what they believe is right in the sight of God, yet St. John's obedience is sort of robotic and logical, while Jane's is more real and passionate, in my opinion.

  6. #21
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    Cool Oh My God

    how can you write such a very long piece on a character you don't even know the name of??????????

    it's ST JOHN not SAINT JOHN, and it's pronounced completely differently. When St John is a name it's not 'Saint John' it's 'Sin-jin'

    jeez even i know that

    and no offense to everything you've written, but he was such a douchebag. i hated him. Mr Rochester was way cooler.

  7. #22
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    Rochester & St. John: two different painted peas in a pod

    Rochester was a heartless (remember how little illegitimate hurting Adele is starving for fatherly affection, and he's a jerk who brushes her off just because she is a bastard when he could have well fathered plenty himself?), hypocritical (you know how he picks on his wife for being of questionable character....and he had 3 lovers--whom he promptly abandoned...different rules for rich men, though...), and terribly selfish. And I thought he loved Jane BECAUSE she was pure, and good-hearted, with a steel spine (good moral character) and a sharp mind. He wasn't attracted to her because of "chemistry"!!@#$@# That was what his OTHER 3 girlfriends were---they should make a movie on THEM if they want "chemistry"!!! And Rochester's total odiousness comes out in the scene after the aborted wedding, when he talks so disparagingly and heartlessly about the mistresses he dumped (the nice one, not Adele's mother) and his horrible wife--and so self-pityingly of himself--giving himself every excuse. He's a total wretch. If Jane let him (as he has had for the past 10 years) have his way, she would have damned him.
    For the first time, he loved someone (again in his self-devouring ravenous selfish love) that had a grain of real love in it--something bigger than chemistry--actually seeing the value in a human soul. (He isn't attracted to her body but to her soul!! There was no "chemistry"!!!!) If this had gone the way of his past 3 loves, he would have just sunk deeper into his byronic and totally bratty (devilish) misery. He'd have cut a fine figure in (CSLewis's THe Great Divorce) Hell, full of the remains of people who are eaten up with their own selfish narcissic misery--with not one last spark of real love left (and plenty of stuff they call "love" that is just torment and cruelty).

    Anyway, Jane loves him more than she loves herself--and is the first girl willing to put Truth before her own passion or happiness or pity for him. (He even works off of woman's pity---and I think in the story, Charlotte Bronte made a point that all his "mean" and shallow mistresses and wife are only portrayed that way---through his eyes. With the exception of Adele's mother, the rest of them were probably much like Jane, and fell for him out of love and attraction and pity. He probably pulled the whole "I can't live without you" card before on the other woman as well--and doubtless meant it then.)

    That is what makes that scene so dreadful. It is like he is burying himself in more and more lies, and begging Jane out of all her compassion and love to destroy herself with him. Its lies from hell that are coming out of his mouth. All blameshifting and denying the sacred personhood and humanity of the girls (2 other mistresses) he's ruined, as well as the wife he has wronged. She sinned like him, but was probably as tormented as him, and probably was once as he was.

    Anyway, I think Jane pitied him very much, because she KNEW he wasn't as victimized as he made himself out to be. It is like watching a drowning man cling to a lead weight as he sinks down. I mean he was victimized--by his own sin and the Devil, but most of all, by himself.
    Charlotte Bronte was following the Gothic tradition of the Byronic Hero, but here she turned it on its head a little by showing us how his "byronicness" is an odious thing, and his soul is chained to it and he is sinking.


    Interlude: St. John Rivers. Its a very interesting twist here. First you think, "Oh, he's the opposite of Rochester". And of course no one can stand him, and modern audiences think "See! Priggish Moral Pastor v. Byronic debauched Hot guy! Cool movie!" That wasn't the point. In Charlotte's world, St. John Rivers would be considered very attractive, so she went to greater lengths to show his sin than she would have today in our culture.
    As the story progresses, you realize the St. John RIvers and Rochester are very much alike. Neither of them has repented, and Rochester with his Byronic guilt-shifting and Rivers who thinks God must agree to his will.... They both have, at root, pride and unrepentence. Rivers wants someone who will think his ideas&wishes are God's (which he wholeheartedly believes himself. That is his greatest sin. Remember when he is turning down the cute girl who likes him and he is struggling? There is no mention of being obedient to Christ's will or loving CHrist. It is "MY noble goals and MY heroism and MY missionary feats....")

    They are really the same. Rochester wants to kill God (by rejecting morality) for "love" which he destroys in his very ravenous devouring. St. John has recreated God as his means to glory, and mistakes his own voice for the ALmighty.

    So St. John Rivers wants to use Jane as well, by having a docile wife-worker who thinks he's God. She refuses that too. (Remember how she says, "I'll obey GOD! and give him my heart...I'm not giving it to you" and he's like "Give me your personhood and I'll reshape it. My will is GOD'S will....")
    St. John is also killing God.

    And Jane refuses that too. She refused both the Godless "Love" and the Loveless "God". (Neither of which are Christ, and both of which were very present in that age.)

    Now comes Part Two: Repentance
    1. Rochester thinks he's killed Jane. Finally for once in his life he realizes how destructive his own wonderful love is, and how he has been destroying all those he "loves". It is no accident that he is running after the madwife and shouting her name. Through Janes refusal and (what he thinks) death, he has come to realize his blindness and selfish devouring. He has recognized his madwife's personhood, and is treating her as a human again. The sad part is that she is lost, her soul is eaten out by hatred to him (which was partly his fault as well as hers) and commits suicide. He almost dies trying to rescue her. But it is too late. This is one of the saddest parts of the book. It recognizes that though we may come to repentance, those WE have helped "push over the edge" may not. Rochester's repentance is too late to save Bertha. (If he had repented earlier and taken care of her out of christian love--his first few years didn't count, that was stoic "poor little me, she DISGUSTING in her sin, I'm so good and taking care of her...." What can be more insulting than that?!---anyway, if he had repented and acknowledge her value as a human being earlier, she may have come to a peaceful end...probably still crazy, but peacefully so.). So Rochester damned Bertha, in a way, though of course it was her choice in the end.

    Anyway, Rochester has finally realized his own sin, and his evil. He actually has finally repented. Before that, all his "repentance" was the sham fake kind, the byronic self-deprecating guilt (I'm sure the Devil has that) that is not repentance (recognizing the precious sanctity and the image of God in other human beings).

    So Jane comes back. He's no longer cool and byronic, but a doddering, blind, impoverished man. But he's changed. He's lost all that stupid glamor which was his cage. He is free now--free from the prison of his old self. He is repentant.

    Jane marries him, though he had fallen more passionately in love with many other women, and has alot of problems and psycho stuff from all his years of selfishness. He is only beginning to be good. But he is sincere for the first time in his life, no longer trapped in himself and his own self-pity.

    2. And finally, we get a hint of St. John's Rivers repentance. It must have been a hard blow to him that the "degenerate" but repentant Rochester was more worthy than him. Jane, by her actions and her words, made it clear to him that he was not GOd. It took him a long time to swallow, and we are not sure if he ever did. But in the end he has finally become weak--wasted away. And he still writes letters to Jane....making us begin to wonder if perhaps under all his bloated egoism, he actually did love her in his cold way though choked by pride. And in the end, he is weak, and dying, with no fan club. ANd he says, "come lord Jesus, come quickly". He's finally calling out to Christ while in utter weakness. Perhaps he didn't repent of his pride....but the earnestness of his last letter seems to suggest that he has. I felt in it, a submission. He has come a long way.

  8. #23
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    @dissenter

    That's what I thought! Arguing that the locking up-thing was not meant to be a good thing, and that Rochester was just wallowing in self pitty and making it seem like he 'could have done much worse'. But I didn't get any further than the locked-up-wife-in-the-attic-thread because someone was apparently of another opinion and seemed to be out to get me, even suggesting I had something against Brontë's work. Good Luck.

    Indeed all episodes are kind of in the same 'format'. The aunt repenting on her deathbed, Rochester repenting in that year Jane is gone and St John repenting at the end.
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

  9. #24
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    very interestering. thank you What is your explaintin for ending the book with St John

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