D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

That's fair enough. Let's look at the ideas; specifically, let's look at his explanation of the phrase "in her womb was ice":

Quark, I read your post and enjoyed reading it. I can't comment now - going out again. I need a short break, but will be back later to post on these thoughts.

[Janine]

Quark, sorry, I can't comment today, either. I have a bad stiff neck - came on me in the night. I hope it improves today but I must limit my time on this computer at least for today. Hopefully I will be back soon. J

[Janine]

Found some interesting things online in reference to chrysantemums. Thought I would share them:

Interesting to note is that John Steinbeck also wrote a short story entitled “The Chysanthemums” and uses the fall flower symbolically.


"The Chrysanthemums" by John Steinbeck illustrates through subtle symbolism a woman's struggle for sexual identity. Elisa Allen, the protagonist of the story, cultivates a likeness of herself through her chrysanthemum garden, but fragments of her are also depicted by key objects encountered during the story. Elisa tries hard to project a tough, masculine image of herself rather than the feminine alternative, but the effort results in nothing but a facade.

http://www.northharriscollege.com/30939/
about the story


an essay on O of C

http://www.azete.com/view/5929


Odour of Chrysanthemums as a Classic


The claim that "Odour of Chrysanthemums" is a well-crafted story is hardly brave or risky, for many would agree. For instance, the man who in a sense discovered Lawrence, English Review editor F. M. Ford, said this about "Odour of Chrysanthemums":

"The very title makes an impact on the mind. You get at once the knowledge that this is not, whatever else it may turn out, either a frivolous or even a gay springtime story. Chrysanthemums are not only flowers of the autumn: they are the autumn itself. . . This man knows what he wants. He sees the scene of his story exactly. He has an authoritative mind. (Ford 257)"

As a fiction editor, he is quite receptive to Lawrence's descriptive gifts. He is impressed with Lawrence's sense of purpose. But readers needn't assess the short story by Ford's methods alone. Modern readers have a very different perspective than Lawrence's contemporaries, ensuring that many different analyses of "Odour of Chrysanthemums" are possible.

[Janine]

some photos of chysanthemums - thought we could use some color in this thread! haha - enjoy!









A splash of color for the season ~ Happy autumn!

[Virgil]

some photos of chysanthemums - thought we could use some color in this thread! haha - enjoy!



A splash of color for the season ~ Happy autumn!

Thanks Janine. I've never seen a mum with a pattern before. I thought they were all solid colors. Pretty.

[Janine]

Thanks Janine. I've seen a mum with a pattern before. I thought they were all solid colors. Pretty.

Virgil, I thought this one was unusual but I found it listed in the section of a flower site as a chrysanthemum. I think it looks something like a gloriosa daisy. Not sure I spelled that right. Maybe those are in the chrysanthemum family, who knows? Thought a little spash of color to this thread might liven things up and get some attention.

Happy to report that my neck seems to be getting better. I just ate some 'coffee' ice-cream - maybe that is why....haha...also ate chicken soup two days now - they say that will cure colds; maybe it cures sore necks, too.

Quark, Here is what you wrote before and has been awaiting my reply:

The argument is a little weak. Elizabeth is worried about providing for her children early in the story, but her attitudes change dramatically in this part of the story. Mrs. Bates' womb turns to ice when she contemplates the individuality of her husband's character.

Yes, the argument is weak and also inconsistent. I agree with that. Was it when she felt her husband individual, or appart from her, or having little to do with her at all, that she felt "in her womb was ice of fear"? To be honest with you I can't clearly come up with a concise idea in my own brain as to what that means exactly or exactly what Lawrence meant it to mean. We would have to have Lawrence here himself to be sure of the correct interpretation.

She isn't worried about providing for the family at this point. Context is crucial for understanding this passage, and I don't think our critic took that into consideration.

Most likely that is true. One would have to place it into the proper context to see how she feels about her future. How she will provide without a husband for her children, one being unborn, as yet, will be a big deal and a large responsibility...I don't think she has fully thought about that yet. At this juncture in the story she would still be in the 'shock' stage and then 'grieving' would have to follow, so it would take time to consider her real future and the children's. It would be a tough situation for any woman to be faced with, let alone one from that era.

As for the other argument--that Mrs. Bates is anxiety-stricken about the demands on her love that the children will make--I don't know where this is coming from. I don't remember reading anywhere that Elizabeth believes she doesn't have enough love to give to her children. She actually considers herself an excellent mother. We, the readers, might want to qualify that assessment, but I don't think anyone would suggest she didn't love her son and daughter. The argument seems to mistake Elizabeth's bitterness for genuine hatred, and I think readers would lose much of importance of this story if they believed that.

I agree that I don't see her bitter against her children or not loving them. I think she might be in so much shock and then being pregnant would cause her to feel this cold fear in her womb suddenly, but I don't think she feels any hatred for the unborn child, or her other children. She seemed to be a good mother, but we only get a short glimpse into her in this mother role in this story, don't we? So we have to assume she is responsible and a good mother and will provide for the welfare of her children, now that the husband is gone.

[Quark]

Janine, should I reply to your post, or are we going to read something else here soon? The conversation has thinned out somewhat, so it might be time we move on.

[Janine]

Janine, should I reply to your post, or are we going to read something else here soon? The conversation has thinned out somewhat, so it might be time we move on.

Hi
Quark, I don't know; is there anything to respond to? I was mostly responding to your post. Yes, it is probably time to move on, as you said. We could have discussed a few other small points, but I think probably, we did cover the basics and main themes, what do you think?

I have good news for you! I have ordered tonight a audio set - 3 CDs of "The Ravine and Other Short Stories" by Anton Chekhov. I found it on Amazon when searching for Kenneth Branagh items since I am a big fan and he is narrating them. On the Naxo site I could sample one - quite animated and good. So I figure after "Sons and Lovers" winds down and this thread goes to another 'shorter' short story; we have a few in mind, then I can probably rejoin the Chekhov thread, what do you think? Could we do one of the stories in the Naxo book collection next? I will send you the list.

[Virgil]

Any chance we could do a short story called "Sun"? I mentioned it in the Sons and Lovers thread.

[Janine]

Any chance we could do a short story called "Sun"? I mentioned it in the Sons and Lovers thread.

Virgil, Yes, sure....let's start "Sun" - at least reading it. I just found it in my books -"Volume II" of "The Complete Short Stories - D.H.Lawrence". Is it listed on this site as well? I will go check after I post this. I like to be able to quote from the story. It is not a real long story which is good....will give us a bit of a break. Why don't you introduce it formally to the group this time, but don't give away the story.

[Virgil]

OK let's start the Lawrence short story "Sun." I will post a hort summary shortly, but if you don't have the story in hardcopy, you can read it electronically here: http://www.geocities.com/andtherewas...rchive/Sun.htm.

It may be short enough to print outright if you don't want to read off the computer screen. Just check print preview for the amount of pages it will consume.

[Quark]

"The Sun"? Hmm, I haven't heard of that one. What's it about? I'll probably join in the discussion in a week or two.

Hi [B]I have good news for you! I have ordered tonight a audio set - 3 CDs of "The Ravine and Other Short Stories" by Anton Chekhov. I found it on Amazon when searching for Kenneth Branagh items since I am a big fan and he is narrating them. On the Naxo site I could sample one - quite animated and good. So I figure after "Sons and Lovers" winds down and this thread goes to another 'shorter' short story; we have a few in mind, then I can probably rejoin the Chekhov thread, what do you think? Could we do one of the stories in the Naxo book collection next? I will send you the list.

Oh, I'm not going to be able to restart the Chekhov discussion until after Thanksgiving. I have applications due Dec. 15! Everything should be done and in the mail by Dec. 1, though. After that I have nine long months I can devote to nothing but writing these frivolous posts.

[Janine]

"The Sun"? Hmm, I haven't heard of that one. What's it about? I'll probably join in the discussion in a week or two.

Hummm....I would surmise it is about the sun.... so better wear your dark glasses when you are reading...also use sunscreen...we might all get a sunburn....

Oh, I'm not going to be able to restart the Chekhov discussion until after Thanksgiving. I have applications due Dec. 15! Everything should be done and in the mail by Dec. 1, though. After that I have nine long months I can devote to nothing but writing these frivolous posts.

Boo..hoo - No, just kidding...Well, that is fine with me! First off, my CD set won't come for awhile yet - could be weeks. Then, I have to listen to it, so that I can get ahead of you this time around. Ok, so that should take us well into Dec., when you can devote your precious time to frivolous posts, like this one.
Hey, Quark....frivolous...?...frivolous...?....*gasping*.... I thought we were doing the world a great service on here.....all the countless hours I have spend...and now you call them frivolous!....Well 'frivoli' to you, too! : :

OK let's start the Lawrence short story "Sun." I will post a hort summary shortly, but if you don't have the story in hardcopy, you can read it electronically here: http://www.geocities.com/andtherewas...rchive/Sun.htm.

It may be short enough to print outright if you don't want to read off the computer screen. Just check print preview for the amount of pages it will consume.

Virgil is it me or am I am I in a silly mood tonight? Be sure and read my post to Q.
Hey, V, what is a 'hort' summary? ...
And if I read it 'electronically'... will it hurt my vision????

Should have a disclaimer *read at your own risk*

You two are a comedy team!

[Quark]

Hummm....I would surmise it is about the sun.... so better wear your dark glasses when you are reading...also use sunscreen...we might all get a sunburn....

You're really getting into a silly mood here tonight. Of course, I would be too if I stayed up until 3:00 in the morning every day. Seriously, get some sleep. I check the forum at about 6 and see you posting. Then, I leave for the bar, proceed to get drunk, go to a friend's house, drive home however unsafe it may be, and find you're still posting at 2:27 A.M. Something is wrong about this.

Hey,Quark....frivolous...?...frivolous...?....*gasping*.... I thought we were doing the world a great service on here.....all the countless hours I have spend...and now you call them frivolous!....Well 'frivoli' to you, too! : :

Don't be offended. I only meant my posts were frivolous. Have you noticed how freely I'm making these completely groundless assertions? Look at the Sons and Lovers thread. I just argued that the novel wasn't worth rereading. What was I thinking? I didn't mean it like that; but, there you go, totally frivolous remarks from me without any second thought.

[Janine]

You're really getting into a silly mood here tonight. Of course, I would be too if I stayed up until 3:00 in the morning every day. Seriously, get some sleep. I check the forum at about 6 and see you posting. Then, I leave for the bar, proceed to get drunk, go to a friend's house, drive home however unsafe it may be, and find you're still posting at 2:27 A.M. Something is wrong about this.

I don't know, but if you keep this up, I will be up till 5 in the morning today - already it is 12:15 AM - the next day, just dark out still! I have never been so entertained in my life as tonight!
Thanks!.... and you probably were not even trying to be funny.
And did I happen to mention *I have had coffee!!!*?

But seriously...you are correct....and then I go to bed at 3, try to read, get sleepy and then I get insomnia - that is my newest ailment! It is called 'brain overload' and 'fear of senility'!

Don't be offended. I only meant my posts were frivolous. Have you noticed how freely I'm making these completely groundless assertions? Look at the Sons and Lovers thread. I just argued that the novel wasn't worth rereading. What was I thinking? I didn't mean it like that; but, there you go, totally frivolous remarks from me without any second thought.

Hey, I know my words are of value! duh, what was I saying.....(that senility setting in, most likely) ....well, value some nights... my words are of value, but very very doubtful tonight. These are the most frivolous posts, I have written on Lit Net. I hope no one goes researching on the web and is directed to these non-sensical (is that even a word?) Lawrence posts.

Yes, I was just over there in S&L - say what (?) - what where you thinking anyway???? Yes - it was a pretty 'frivolous' statement you made. Did you see my comments?

And by the way it depends on where you live and how many beers you consume to consider that I stay up late!