If god is everything, doesn't that make him evil as well as good?

[RichardHresko]

RH: "Evil has no potentiality to exist since it cannot have existence of itself, only in something else. A crude example: a hole in a shirt is a real hole but it does not exist in itself, only in terms of the shirt."

Whiff: "Exactly the same could be said of goodness, so it is only a matter of faith or opinion that one can be said to be more real than the other, or that one might be described as a presence and the other as an absence."


RH: "I don't see how one could in all seriousness maintain that the same could be said of goodness. Are we to believe that every empty space is merely a hole awaiting a shirt?"

Ha ha - only Douglas Adams would know the answer to that one.
But there is still no particular reason (outside of some reilgious faith) to suppose that goodness has an existence any more or less independent than that of evil. Neither can function in itself - or maybe both can.


Whiff: "Common experience, regardless of the opinions of some Church Fathers, is that evil, like good, is an active driving force, not a mere negative. Shaw(?) commented "for evil to triumph it is sufficient for good men to do nothing." This has the ring of truth, and implies that evil is independent and active. "

HR: "Common experience also tells us the world is flat, that the sun rises instead of the earth revolving, and that there is such a thing as centrifugal force (there isn't). That some perceive evil as an active driving force is not an argument that evil is such a thing."

Of course it is an argument - not a proof, but at least basis for a working hypothesis. To deny the active power of evil is like denying the roundness of the earth having watched a ship go over the horizon. The evidence of evil is simply not accounted for by regarding evil as an absence or a void.

The neo-Platonists, among others, argued on philosophical grounds that goodness has substantial existence while evil is a privation, and therefore lacks substantial existence.

I disagree that, "The evidence of evil is simply not accounted for by regarding evil as an absence or a void." Consider the following: why does a man commit evil? It can be argued on perfectly sound philosophical grounds that he does so either because of ignorance (traditional Platonist) and therefore there is a lack of knowledge, or that the person possesses a will that is corrupted (more neo-Platonist), which is also a lack of a properly function will. To deny substantial existence to evil is not to say that there is no evil, only that evil is not a thing.

One argument for the positive existence of goodness and non-substantive nature of evil:
1. Existence is good. (This could be a separate argument, but consider that to argue the contrary is to maintain that the entire universe is evil.)
2. When something is corrupted it becomes less good, and is less of what it was.
3. If something becomes entirely corrupted it becomes not good at all, but also non-existent.

[byquist]

God, as infinite and incontestable good, precludes evil; God is not in a competition with an alternate power. We may feel this a lot, occasionally, almost never, or never.

The human mind only grasps and credits God's absoluteness and totality in occasional moments (thus, "through a glass darkly"); but, some people can extend it into an ongoing and repeated basis (thus, "now I know even as also I am known").

[Whifflingpin]

HR: "When something is corrupted it becomes less good, and is less of what it was."

For something to become corrupted, there must be a corruptor.

[RRuiz]

This is a bit of weird one I think. This came to me when I was reading a Philip K. Dick short story about something similer. This is purly hypothetical and I mean no offence.

If god is in everything and everyone, does that not make him as much an evil malevolent as a divine benevolent?

It just seems to me that evil is as much a thing as good; and something claimed to be everything must surely be both?

Thoughts on this random thought?

egh.. i don't really know but in a way it woudl seem liek he can be both but mostly good.

[RichardHresko]

HR: "When something is corrupted it becomes less good, and is less of what it was."

For something to become corrupted, there must be a corruptor.

When speaking of moral corruption, the agent is free will that has been perverted. Here I am using 'perverted' in the technical sense, in that the will is directed away from that which will make the person happy. One need not posit an embodiment of evil as the agent of evil.

[Thinkerr]

I agree with fisher of men. The way I see it God is perfect and only good. Bad things happen because disobey the laws of God or it is a test. Its like if you give your kid only good stuff and everything he wants, he won't turn out very well. Hard times train our minds and souls to become better. The soldier that comes home from war, will always resist a nobody-important-got-hurt attitude because he saw people die in front of him. Nobody is unimportant to him. God allows the devil to hurt us to help us grow stronger and become more like Him. He wants us to know both good and evil so we can chooses the good.

[the silent x]

i will agree with most of that thinkerr, i believe that many bad things happen just because it happened, not because God was trying to test us, that makes God look like a school teacher who is uncertain as to whether we have learned a lesson. he is not uncertain, he is certain we are what we are because he is omniscient and can see everything about you no matter how you try to hide it. he may twist a few things in life to help us achieve a goal in his name, but not much more than that.

[RichardHresko]

i will agree with most of that thinkerr, i believe that many bad things happen just because it happened, not because God was trying to test us, that makes God look like a school teacher who is uncertain as to whether we have learned a lesson. he is not uncertain, he is certain we are what we are because he is omniscient and can see everything about you no matter how you try to hide it. he may twist a few things in life to help us achieve a goal in his name, but not much more than that.

Given what you say is true, doesn't that imply that bad things don't just happen, but that he allows them to happen? And therefore, wouldn't it be also true that there would therefore have to be some purpose in everything that happens? This does not undermine your argument, but rather gives it some additional possibilities.

[Thinkerr]

Silent X- most of the bad things in the world happen not because God isn't sure we have learned our lesson, but because we our now stronger and can endure different, harder lessons to teach us different more valuable things.

[RichardHresko]

Silent X- most of the bad things in the world happen not because God isn't sure we have learned our lesson, but because we our now stronger and can endure different, harder lessons to teach us different more valuable things.

There seem to be two types of bad things -- natural bad things like earthquakes, and moral bad things like murder. The former can be argued to be only bad from a rather narrow perspective, and good from a broader point of view. For example, one may feel that a shark is bad because it occasionally eats people, but really the shark is good because it exists.

Moral evil is the result of free will that is turmed from its true freedom and selects a good that is inferior. For example, a person who steals is valuing money or some item more than the better good of honesty.

In this scheme of things moral evil is not chosen by god but is rather the consequence of our own actions and will.

[Thinkerr]

I would argue that the natural bad things God commands are "trials". They are bad in that they usually kill or hurt people, but the people who come out of these disasters are better than before a "trial". The moral bad things God does not dirrectly order, but rather allows to happen, like a child learning not to put it's hand on the stove by being burnt.

[RichardHresko]

I would argue that the natural bad things God commands are "trials". They are bad in that they usually kill or hurt people, but the people who come out of these disasters are better than before a "trial". The moral bad things God does not dirrectly order, but rather allows to happen, like a child learning not to put it's hand on the stove by being burnt.

It has been argued that there are no natural bad things, since all things are made by God, and God is, by definition, good. Thus things can only appear to be bad.

I am more inclined to agree with your stance on moral evil. Especially since you imply that the evil brings misery on itself.

[sonofaslan]

Allow me to quote Lewis...

"If evil has the same kind of reality as good, the same autonomy and completeness, our allegiance to god becomes the arbitrarily chosen loyalty of a partisan. A sound theory of value demands something different. It demands that good should be original and evil a mere perversion; that good should be the tree and evil the ivy; that good should be able to see all round evil (as when sane men understand lunacy) while evil cannot retaliate in kind; that good should be able to exist on its own while evil requires the good on which it is parasitic in order to continue its parasitic existence."

This is the Christian perspective.

[kari]

I just wanted to add my two cents on the topic...even though it may not be much different than what has already been mentioned. I agree with a lot of what has been said, but wanted to add the idea of free agency into it. For what has been last discussed in this thread, I think it is important to remember free agency when it comes to bad things happening to us that come directly or indirectly from other people. We have the free agency to choose right from wrong, just as everyone else does...and if you flip on the news, it is obviously there are a lot of people choosing the wrong. I agree that God allows it to happen, simply because He can't take away one persons right to choose, and not anothers (in the sense that it would defeat the purpose of being here). As for natural disaster type of things, I do think God tests us in a way. But moreso to make us better people. I think His intention is to help us learn something that we need to know, but that could also go with the trials inflicted on us by others. I have before found myself going through a rough patch, when I had already experienced something similar, not long prior. I eventually realize there was more to learn than what I got out of the first experience. And plus, how can we truly value, appreciate, and choose the good things if we don't know how the bad feels?

[RichardHresko]

I just wanted to add my two cents on the topic...even though it may not be much different than what has already been mentioned. I agree with a lot of what has been said, but wanted to add the idea of free agency into it. For what has been last discussed in this thread, I think it is important to remember free agency when it comes to bad things happening to us that come directly or indirectly from other people. We have the free agency to choose right from wrong, just as everyone else does...and if you flip on the news, it is obviously there are a lot of people choosing the wrong. I agree that God allows it to happen, simply because He can't take away one persons right to choose, and not anothers (in the sense that it would defeat the purpose of being here). As for natural disaster type of things, I do think God tests us in a way. But moreso to make us better people. I think His intention is to help us learn something that we need to know, but that could also go with the trials inflicted on us by others. I have before found myself going through a rough patch, when I had already experienced something similar, not long prior. I eventually realize there was more to learn than what I got out of the first experience. And plus, how can we truly value, appreciate, and choose the good things if we don't know how the bad feels?

I agree with you over all, though I am not so sure that we need the bad to appreciate the good. But that is a minor point.

In the Christian tradition the ability that God bestows on people to become better is referred to as 'grace.'