View Poll Results: 'To The Lighthouse': Final Verdict

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  • * Waste of time. Wouldn't recommend it.

    1 5.00%
  • ** Didn't like it much.

    1 5.00%
  • *** Average.

    0 0%
  • **** It is a good book.

    8 40.00%
  • ***** Liked it very much. Would strongly recommend it.

    10 50.00%
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Thread: Summer '07 Reading: 'To The Lighthouse' by Virginia Woolf

  1. #256
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    To the Lighthouse

    Hi.. It's been a while since I posted but I feel I must since now we are at the bitter end of the book..... When we see Lily with her painting on page 202, she sees a reflection of the lighthouse. She's percieving this to be Mrs Ramsey and she wants it to be Mrs Ramsey... On page 208 we see Lily becoming "one with" Mrs Ramsey at the same moment she wants to see Mr Ramsey and it's also at this moment that Carmichael says that the Ramseys have arrived at the lighthouse... At this same moment, Mr Ramsey compliments James which is huge because he is usually all about himself...
    I think that the whole book culminates in this one scene.. Woolf's whole mystical vision which is a moment of whole or shared conscieneness is right in that moment... I felt she was showing that groups of people can actually have this shared moment... We are all capable of experiencing these moments through love of other people...
    I don't know, just my opinion.............
    Thanks for letting me share.... Have a good day................

  2. #257
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Oh, I'm not saying that she isn't important, or that she isn't central. I'm just trying to show why she's important. People have argued that Mrs. Ramsay is important because she brings people together and connects with the deeper thoughts in the other characters. If this were true, that would be quite an accomplishment, and Mrs. Ramsay would be a heroic figure. I don't think this is true, though. Her efforts actually appear to be quite futile.
    Her efforts are transient, and heroic while they last. Her magic in soothing Cam by covering the skull with her shawl show that. Yes time and nature will always have the upper hand, but while they are together Mrs, Ramsey improves their lives. It is a struggle with life and she fights a heroic fight. And remains with the characters after her death.

    Really, Mrs. Ramsay is important because she doesn't succeed. Much of this story is tragic, and Mrs. Ramsay's ineffectualness is extremely important in that tragedy. The Ramsay's are important to us because we can see ourselves in them. Hasn't everyone had some exposure to things like Mrs. Ramsay's altruism or Mr. Ramsay's intellectualism? I think the point of the tragedy is that these things aren't enough to overcome mortality and change. Ultimately, those who put their faith in these ideas will end up isolated.
    I don't see structurally how this novel would work without without seeing Mrs Ramsey as easing the inherent isolation of the other characters. Put their faith in what? A painting? yes it's a tragedy. She's human and no human can win a fight with life. But the effort is paramout. In parallel, look at the efforts of Mrs McNabb as she puts the house together after nature has had its will with it.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #258
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plainjane View Post
    I do not think she was that interested in Bankes in the end, he seemed dismissed from her mind.
    Actually, in the third section she mentions Bankes one more time:

    But William, she remembered, had listened to her with his wise child's eyes when she explained how it was not irreverence: how a light there needed a shadow there and so on. She did not intend to disparage a subject which, they agreed, Raphael had treated divinely. She was not cynical. Quite the contrary. Thanks to his scientific mind he understood—a proof of disinterested intelligence which had pleased her and comforted her enormously. One could talk of painting then seriously to a man. Indeed, his friendship had been one of the pleasures of her life. She loved William Bankes.
    It's so typical of this novel that it would put such an important detail in an aside. That paragraph goes on for a full page, but the most important part is four words at the end. Those four words are one of the most genuine sentiments Lily ever gives voice to. Usually, Lily will say one thing but then quickly add a bunch of modifying and contradictory statements until we can't be sure what she believes. In this case, though, Lily's thoughts naturally lead to this conclusion and she doesn't try to take it back after it's said. I think Lily did feel something William Bankes. Did she not marry him to get the better of Mrs. Ramsay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Yes, I agree - it was just an impression I got about how Lily was feeling about Mr. Ramsey. Somewhere she says she wants him. What did she mean by that? I will look up exact quote later. I don't think I got any sense of Bankes at all in the end. I did not think they had all that much connection to begin with. It seemed only to be in Mrs. Ramsey's mind and imagination that the two should ever marry. I never envisioned it for Lily, not with Bankes. And in the end Lily might only be entertaining the thought of domestic life as Mrs. Ramsey had it or think she could marry Mr. Ramsey and make things better. Women often do think this - that a second wife can go beyond what a first wife achieved. I think she is feeling this way and wondering how she could continue on in her footsteps, but develop more of a relationship, perhaps closer to Mr. Ramsey.
    Lily is forced into Mrs. Ramsay's position with her husband at the end of the story. Mr. Ramsay is still looking for someone to give him the sympathy and flattery that apparently his battery runs on. Lily tries to fill the role, but she fails miserably. The best she can do to soothe Mr. Ramsay's ego is compliment his footwear. Her attempt to be Mr. Ramsay's wife replacement is comical at best partly because she isn't as good at it as Mrs. Ramsay was and partly because she doesn't respect Mr. Ramsay the way his wife did. Never, though, is Lily ever really in love Mr. Ramsay. In fact, she says she's incapable of the kind of romance that Mr. Ramsay would want.

    Quote Originally Posted by middleyears View Post
    Hi.. It's been a while since I posted but I feel I must since now we are at the bitter end of the book..... When we see Lily with her painting on page 202, she sees a reflection of the lighthouse. She's percieving this to be Mrs Ramsey and she wants it to be Mrs Ramsey... On page 208 we see Lily becoming "one with" Mrs Ramsey at the same moment she wants to see Mr Ramsey and it's also at this moment that Carmichael says that the Ramseys have arrived at the lighthouse... At this same moment, Mr Ramsey compliments James which is huge because he is usually all about himself...
    I think that the whole book culminates in this one scene.. Woolf's whole mystical vision which is a moment of whole or shared conscieneness is right in that moment... I felt she was showing that groups of people can actually have this shared moment... We are all capable of experiencing these moments through love of other people...
    I don't know, just my opinion.............
    Thanks for letting me share.... Have a good day................
    You're right to suggest that people make a connection at the end. Really, that might be the only positive, uplifting part of the ending. Cam and James become aware of their father's personal tragedy; and, on the shore, Lily finally realizes how to complete her painting which is an expression of her intimacy with Mrs. Ramsay. Does the book culminate in that moment of togetherness? That might be a little harder to prove.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Her efforts are transient, and heroic while they last. Her magic in soothing Cam by covering the skull with her shawl show that. Yes time and nature will always have the upper hand, but while they are together Mrs, Ramsey improves their lives. It is a struggle with life and she fights a heroic fight. And remains with the characters after her death.

    I don't see structurally how this novel would work without without seeing Mrs Ramsey as easing the inherent isolation of the other characters. Put their faith in what? A painting? yes it's a tragedy. She's human and no human can win a fight with life. But the effort is paramout. In parallel, look at the efforts of Mrs McNabb as she puts the house together after nature has had its will with it.
    I'm not going to say that the little courtesies that Mrs. Ramsay extends to her family are nothing. No, they're still rather touching. Yet, when we say something is heroic we have to prove that it somehow makes a difference in reference to the major themes. In a book like Moby Dick, for example, revenge and arrogance are major themes. Ahab is obviously important in that book because he's a supreme expression of arrogance and vengeful feelings, but he doesn't really accomplish anything besides the complete destruction of his ship. Ahab would have been heroic if he were able to forget about the whale and continue to live his life with his family. That would have been an act of heroism because he would have done the moral thing in relation to the themes of the novel. Ahab is still important, but not as the virtuous hero. Really, he's the opposite: he's the tragic hero. The tragic hero is important but fails because of human frailties which we can all relate to. This is more the light in which I see Mrs. Ramsay. That isn't to take away any of her importance. How could I argue that? Especially when there are passages like:

    She, on the other hand, would be forced to give. Mrs. Ramsay had given. Giving, giving, giving, she had died--and had left all this. Really she was angry with Mrs. Ramsay. With the brush slightly trembling in her fingers she looked at the hedge, the step, the wall. It was all Mrs. Ramsay's doing. She was dead.
    I just think that Mrs. Ramsay doesn't understand the main themes of the novel. One of the big ideas of To The Lighthouse is that the personal is more important than the societal, yet Mrs. Ramsay represses her inner emotions, doubts, and thoughts in favor of maintaining civility or flattering her husband. Another theme is the inadequacy of human relationships, yet Mrs. Ramsay believes that marriage will allow her to overcome mortality and change. She's still an important character, but she doesn't have any answers to the questions raised by the novel.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
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    [...] O mais! par instants"

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  4. #259
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    [QUOTE=Quark;432122]Actually, in the third section she mentions Bankes one more time:

    Hi Quark, I am working up to my post in Chekov and came online to find the text to quote - got side-tracked again. I did post in Lawrence and later will post the last segment of the story. I was not sure if this thread had gone dead so I felt like checking up. I forgot I wanted to answer this post of yours I read several days ago. Good post, Quark, but not sure I agree on all points.


    It's so typical of this novel that it would put such an important detail in an aside. That paragraph goes on for a full page, but the most important part is four words at the end. Those four words are one of the most genuine sentiments Lily ever gives voice to. Usually, Lily will say one thing but then quickly add a bunch of modifying and contradictory statements until we can't be sure what she believes. In this case, though, Lily's thoughts naturally lead to this conclusion and she doesn't try to take it back after it's said. I think Lily did feel something William Bankes. Did she not marry him to get the better of Mrs. Ramsay?
    Yes, it is typical since in the center section Woolf did something virtually unheard of in her day - she put the important events - the deaths - in brackets interspersed between the description of the decay the house has fallen into. I thought that was so interesting and inovative, a little odd, but stangely enough, when you read those, it really hits you, like in real life.

    Why can't Lily be referring to Banks in a loving way but only as a friend? This is the way I took it. I've had many male friends I could easily say I love. I don't think she ever entertained thoughts of marrying William Bankes but maybe I am wrong. The statement prior to the last 4 words seems to indicate that he was her friend. She says that "Indeed, his friendship had been one of the pleasures of her life." I think I have felt that way about a true male friend, and never entertained thoughts of having a close physical relationship or marriage to them.


    Lily is forced into Mrs. Ramsay's position with her husband at the end of the story. Mr. Ramsay is still looking for someone to give him the sympathy and flattery that apparently his battery runs on. Lily tries to fill the role, but she fails miserably. The best she can do to soothe Mr. Ramsay's ego is compliment his footwear. Her attempt to be Mr. Ramsay's wife replacement is comical at best partly because she isn't as good at it as Mrs. Ramsay was and partly because she doesn't respect Mr. Ramsay the way his wife did. Never, though, is Lily ever really in love Mr. Ramsay. In fact, she says she's incapable of the kind of romance that Mr. Ramsay would want.
    I don't see that she is forced into any position. Lily is quite independent and has a mind of her own. If she feels something for Mr. Ramsey it is of her free will that it happens. I don't detect him being aggressive with her or any indication of her being forced into the position of wife. She does not need to marry the man to offer sympathy, even flattery. Yes, Lily cannot fill another woman's role as a replacement - no one effectively could take the place of Mrs. Ramsey - we are all individuals after all. She has a different style than Mrs. Ramsey. I don't think Lily is 'in love' with Mr. Ramsey either, and I don't think she would marry just for convenience or to sooth Mr. Ramsey, so that I am not really sure what will happen at the close of the story.

    You're right to suggest that people make a connection at the end. Really, that might be the only positive, uplifting part of the ending. Cam and James become aware of their father's personal tragedy; and, on the shore, Lily finally realizes how to complete her painting which is an expression of her intimacy with Mrs. Ramsay. Does the book culminate in that moment of togetherness? That might be a little harder to prove.
    Yes, even Lily does connect with Ramsey but not in a romantic fashion. Yes, this novel has not been too uplifting. In fact on my second reading I felt rather pulled down by it and depressed. It was odd but I had a hard time getting through it since I felt uneasy reading it when I needed something a bit more uplifting. The ending is only a glimmer of hope that the father and James will ever truly get along with each other. It is significant that Mr. Ramsey did compliment him and reach out finally to his son in this small way. Again I don't know if we can know the results of this connection or any others in the book. I think we can only surmise and quess and so each of us has to find our own closure to the story. I did not find closure in Mrs. Dalloway either. I think it is characteristic of Woolf's style. Again like in Lawrence short stories, it makes one thing on and on about the ending long after you come to the final words, not a bad thing really...books live on this way in our minds. It is good to contemplate sometimes.

    I'm not going to say that the little courtesies that Mrs. Ramsay extends to her family are nothing. No, they're still rather touching. Yet, when we say something is heroic we have to prove that it somehow makes a difference in reference to the major themes. In a book like Moby Dick, for example, revenge and arrogance are major themes. Ahab is obviously important in that book because he's a supreme expression of arrogance and vengeful feelings, but he doesn't really accomplish anything besides the complete destruction of his ship. Ahab would have been heroic if he were able to forget about the whale and continue to live his life with his family. That would have been an act of heroism because he would have done the moral thing in relation to the themes of the novel. Ahab is still important, but not as the virtuous hero. Really, he's the opposite: he's the tragic hero. The tragic hero is important but fails because of human frailties which we can all relate to. This is more the light in which I see Mrs. Ramsay. That isn't to take away any of her importance. How could I argue that? Especially when there are passages like:
    I don't see Mrs. Ramsey as heroic but I see her with an inner beauty and strength and also much human fraility - she is human and feels many emotions and hurts and yet she is persistent in her way of life and keeping peace within her family. She is just plain a good hearted woman in my eyes, but no woman is a saint.

    I just think that Mrs. Ramsay doesn't understand the main themes of the novel. One of the big ideas of To The Lighthouse is that the personal is more important than the societal, yet Mrs. Ramsay represses her inner emotions, doubts, and thoughts in favor of maintaining civility or flattering her husband. Another theme is the inadequacy of human relationships, yet Mrs. Ramsay believes that marriage will allow her to overcome mortality and change. She's still an important character, but she doesn't have any answers to the questions raised by the novel.
    Quark, how does she believe that marriage will alow her to overcome mortality and change? I did not understand your statement to this effect. She may be always thinking and questioning and coming up with no definitive answers to these 'eternal' questions, but then how many of us do have all the answers? Again, she is only human with human fears and repressions and doubts and frustrations, etc., and many emotions beneath/hidden perhaps.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  5. #260
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    I've been following this deep discussion of character with considerable interest. Now that we are to the end of the book, I'll ask a simple question that reflects an impression I have had.

    Am I mistaken, or do I see a reflection and continuation of Mr. Ramsay in James, and, likewise, a reflection and continuation of Mrs. Ramsay in Cam, and the generations will repeat themsleves?
    Last edited by Walter; 08-25-2007 at 06:41 PM.

  6. #261
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    I just think that Mrs. Ramsay doesn't understand the main themes of the novel. One of the big ideas of To The Lighthouse is that the personal is more important than the societal, yet Mrs. Ramsay represses her inner emotions, doubts, and thoughts in favor of maintaining civility or flattering her husband. Another theme is the inadequacy of human relationships, yet Mrs. Ramsay believes that marriage will allow her to overcome mortality and change. She's still an important character, but she doesn't have any answers to the questions raised by the novel.
    I'm not sure how a character can or cannot understand the themes of the novel he/she is in, unless it were metafication. Mrs. Ramsey does survive in the hearts of those she touched and in her surviving children. In our struggle to overcome the power of nature to wipe out life, marriage and children are the means of fighting the destructing forces that Woolf sees nature as. I'll post right after this something on the middle section. But Mrs. R is portrayed as a fertility goddess. Here chapter 7 of the first part:
    Mrs Ramsay, who had been sitting loosely, folding her son in her arm, braced herself, and, half turning, seemed to raise herself with an effort, and at once to pour erect into the air a rain of energy, a column of spray, looking at the same time animated and alive as if all her energies were being fused into force, burning and illuminating (quietly though she sat, taking up her stocking again), and into this delicious fecundity, this fountain and spray of life, the fatal sterility of the male plunged itself, like a beak of brass, barren and bare.
    She is fecundity, the mother of eight children, the one who's energy opposes the forces of sterilty and destruction. Woolf portrays a domestic situation in the novel but she projects heroic efforts from little actions. I'm sorry to diagree but Mrs Ramsey is supposed to be understood as heroic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I don't see Mrs. Ramsey as heroic but I see her with an inner beauty and strength and also much human fraility - she is human and feels many emotions and hurts and yet she is persistent in her way of life and keeping peace within her family. She is just plain a good hearted woman in my eyes, but no woman is a saint.

    Quark, how does she believe that marriage will alow her to overcome mortality and change? I did not understand your statement to this effect. She may be always thinking and questioning and coming up with no definitive answers to these 'eternal' questions, but then how many of us do have all the answers? Again, she is only human with human fears and repressions and doubts and frustrations, etc., and many emotions beneath/hidden perhaps.
    I think Janine I answered above the second part, and I think everything you list as her qualities are heroic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Am I mistaken, or do I see a reflection and continuation of Mr. Ramsay in James, and, likewise, a reflection and continuation of Mrs. Ramsay in Cam, and the generations will repeat themsleves?
    You are not mistaken.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  7. #262
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    She is fecundity, the mother of eight children, the one who's energy opposes the forces of sterilty and destruction. Woolf portrays a domestic situation in the novel but she projects heroic efforts from little actions. I'm sorry to diagree but Mrs Ramsey is supposed to be understood as heroic.
    Fecundity does not equal heroic. I know you mean all of the above, but I really do not agree. If anything I see futility in her actions. Not that it is her fault, it is only human. The very things she strives for, the various matings she champions especially...are not successful.
    Maybe that is what Woolf in her own depressed state of mind was saying, no matter how we plan, no matter what machinations we finagle, if we try to force issues, or people into our mold of what we think they should be or do, we fail. The falling apart of the house, the inexorable sweeping of the lighthouse....all show this.

  8. #263
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I wanted to post something on the second part of the novel, called "Time Passes" before we go into the concluding section. Certainly we can see part II as a bridge from the first to the third, but it's more than that. It advances the theme of nature's power to destoy life and life's fight to combat destruction. It presents the central conflict within the novel, nature's forces versues human's struggle to survive.

    The first part ends with the household going to bed.
    So with the lamps all put out, the moon sunk, and a thin rain drumming on the roof a downpouring of immense darkness began. Nothing, it seemed, could survive the flood, the profusion of darkness which, creeping in at keyholes and crevices, stole round window blinds, came into bedrooms, swallowed up here a jug and basin, there a bowl of red and yellow dahlias, there the sharp edges and firm bulk of a chest of drawers. Not only was furniture confounded; there was scarcely anything left of body or mind by which one could say, “This is he” or “This is she.” Sometimes a hand was raised as if to clutch something or ward off something, or somebody groaned, or somebody laughed aloud as if sharing a joke with nothingness.

    Nothing stirred in the drawing-room or in the dining-room or on the staircase. Only through the rusty hinges and swollen sea-moistened woodwork certain airs, detached from the body of the wind (the house was ramshackle after all) crept round corners and ventured indoors. Almost one might imagine them, as they entered the drawing-room questioning and wondering, toying with the flap of hanging wall-paper, asking, would it hang much longer, when would it fall? Then smoothly brushing the walls, they passed on musingly as if asking the red and yellow roses on the wall-paper whether they time at their disposal) the torn letters in the wastepaper basket, the flowers, the books, all of which were now open to them and asking, Were they allies? Were they enemies? How long would they endure?
    First, what beautiful writing. Second, an open rhetorical question, from who's point of view is this being told? It's sort of a combination of omniscient and limited point of view. Strikes me as original. What we do see is the power of nature slowly taking over its domain, even down to the rust which breaks down the metal. But this goes on for more than a night:
    But what after all is one night? A short space, especially when the darkness dims so soon, and so soon a bird sings, a **** crows, or a faint green quickens, like a turning leaf, in the hollow of the wave. Night, however, succeeds to night. The winter holds a pack of them in store and deals them equally, they darken. Some of them hold aloft clear planets, plates of brightness. The autumn trees, ravaged as they are, take on the flash of tattered flags kindling in the gloom of cool cathedral caves where gold letters on marble pages describe death in battle and how bones bleach and burn far away in Indian sands. The autumn trees gleam in the yellow moonlight, in the light of harvest moons, the light which mellows the energy of labour, and smooths the stubble, and brings the wave lapping blue to the shore.

    It seemed now as if, touched by human penitence and all its toil, divine goodness had parted the curtain and displayed behind it, single, distinct, the hare erect; the wave falling; the boat rocking; which, did we deserve them, should be ours always. But alas, divine goodness, twitching the cord, draws the curtain; it does not please him; he covers his treasures in a drench of hail, and so breaks them, so confuses them that it seems impossible that their calm should ever return or that we should ever compose from their fragments a perfect whole or read in the littered pieces the clear words of truth. For our penitence deserves a glimpse only; our toil respite only.

    The nights now are full of wind and destruction; the trees plunge and bend and their leaves fly helter skelter until the lawn is plastered with them and they lie packed in gutters and choke rain pipes and scatter damp paths. Also the sea tosses itself and breaks itself, and should any sleeper fancying that he might find on the beach an answer to his doubts, a sharer of his solitude, throw off his bedclothes and go down by himself to walk on the sand, no image with semblance of serving and divine promptitude comes readily to hand bringing the night to order and making the world reflect the compass of the soul. The hand dwindles in his hand; the voice bellows in his ear. Almost it would appear that it is useless in such confusion to ask the night those questions as to what, and why, and wherefore, which tempt the sleeper from his bed to seek an answer.
    Two important points here. First the destruction alludes to, in scientific terms, entropy, the law of nature (2nd law of thermodynamics for those interested I am an engineer you know) that states that nature evolves to chaos and disorder. I'm fairly confident that Woolf is specifically thinking of entropy. It was something discussed in her day and the dramatisation describes it perfectly, even the concept of rusting. From Merriam-Webster: entropy: "2 a : the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder." Second, that middle paragraph I quoted lifts the conflict into a devine level. Entropy, the forces of destruction, is from God himself, and the human toil is Mrs. R's fight. (Remember this passage from chapter 10 of part I: "A sort of transaction went on between them, in which she was on one side, and life was on another, and she was always trying to get the better of it, as it was of her; and sometimes they parleyed (when she sat alone); there were, she remembered, great reconciliation scenes; but for the most part, oddly enough, she must admit that she felt this thing that she called life terrible, hostile, and quick to pounce on you if you gave it a chance.")

    And so you can read on about the destruction of the house and the lives and the eleven years that pass. It is also interesting to see how Mrs. McNab, the housekeeper of sorts,relates to a imaginary Mrs. Ramsey during this time. But she is ultimately asked to prepare the house again, and the human effort to combat entropy, the destructive force of nature, is dramatised:
    If the feather had fallen, if it had tipped the scale downwards, the whole house would have plunged to the depths to lie upon the sands of oblivion. But there was a force working; something not highly conscious; something that leered, something that lurched; something not inspired to go about its work with dignified ritual or solemn chanting. Mrs McNab groaned; Mrs Bast creaked. They were old; they were stiff; their legs ached. They came with their brooms and pails at last; they got to work. All of a sudden, would Mrs McNab see that the house was ready, one of the young ladies wrote: would she get this done; would she get that done; all in a hurry. They might be coming for the summer; had left everything to the last; expected to find things as they had left them. Slowly and painfully, with broom and pail, mopping, scouring, Mrs McNab, Mrs Bast, stayed the corruption and the rot; rescued from the pool of Time that was fast closing over them now a basin, now a cupboard; fetched up from oblivion all the Waverley novels and a tea-set one morning; in the afternoon restored to sun and air a brass fender and a set of steel fire-irons. George, Mrs Bast’s son, caught the rats, and cut the grass. They had the builders. Attended with the creaking of hinges and the screeching of bolts, the slamming and banging of damp-swollen woodwork, some rusty laborious birth seemed to be taking place, as the women, stooping, rising, groaning, singing, slapped and slammed, upstairs now, now down in the cellars. Oh, they said, the work!
    Notice also follwing this how Mrs. McNab (she is a parallel figure to Mrs. Ramsey) also brings people together through tea and food and gossip, and unlike the all the other characters also has children. And so it is "finished," the human effort to combat entropy. Human effort is an organizing principle, the opposite of chaos.
    At last, after days of labour within, of cutting and digging without, dusters were flicked from the windows, the windows were shut to, keys were turned all over the house; the front door was banged; it was finished.

    And now as if the cleaning and the scrubbing and the scything and the mowing had drowned it there rose that half-heard melody, that intermittent music which the ear half catches but lets fall; a bark, a bleat; irregular, intermittent, yet somehow related; the hum of an insect, the tremor of cut grass, dissevered yet somehow belonging; the jar of a dorbeetle, the squeak of a wheel, loud, low, but mysteriously related; which the ear strains to bring together and is always on the verge of harmonising, but they are never quite heard, never fully harmonised, and at last, in the evening, one after another silence falls. With the sunset sharpness was lost, and like mist rising, quiet rose, quiet spread, the wind settled; loosely the world shook itself down to sleep, darkly here without a light to it, save what came green suffused through leaves, or pale on the white flowers in the bed by the window.
    The phrase "it is finished" is quite significant to the novel, but I won't get into that now; hold it for the end. What's interesting is that second paragraph where I can't help but feel that Woolf is alluding to the spirit of Mrs. Ramsey, returned. "that intermittent music which the ear half catches but lets fall; a bark, a bleat; irregular, intermittent, yet somehow related; the hum of an insect, the tremor of cut grass, dissevered yet somehow belonging; the jar of a dorbeetle, the squeak of a wheel, loud, low, but mysteriously related" all suggests a spiritual interaction, and what spirit is around everyone but that of Mrs. Ramsey.

    Quote Originally Posted by plainjane View Post
    Fecundity does not equal heroic. I know you mean all of the above, but I really do not agree. If anything I see futility in her actions. Not that it is her fault, it is only human. The very things she strives for, the various matings she champions especially...are not successful.
    Maybe that is what Woolf in her own depressed state of mind was saying, no matter how we plan, no matter what machinations we finagle, if we try to force issues, or people into our mold of what we think they should be or do, we fail. The falling apart of the house, the inexorable sweeping of the lighthouse....all show this.
    So you think that Woolf is advocating we give up and commit suicide? You think she's advocating that no one procreate, no children be born, just go and paint our little pictures and let human life extinguish?

    From M-W:
    heroic

    Main Entry: 1he·ro·ic
    Pronunciation: hi-'rO-ik also her-'O- or hE-'rO-
    Variant(s): also he·ro·ical /-i-k&l/
    Function: adjective
    1 : of, relating to, resembling, or suggesting heroes especially of antiquity
    2 a : exhibiting or marked by courage and daring b : supremely noble or self-sacrificing
    3 a : of impressive size, power, extent, or effect <heroic doses> <a heroic voice> b (1) : of great intensity : EXTREME, DRASTIC <heroic effort> (2) : of a kind that is likely only to be undertaken to save a life <heroic surgery>
    4 : of, relating to, or constituting drama written during the Restoration in heroic couplets and concerned with a conflict between love and honor

    I advocate that Mrs. Ramsey is marked by courage, supremely noble, and self-sacrificing. And yes fecundity is heroic in the battle against nature. Nature as portrayed here is the force that destroys life; fecundity is the means of creating life.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #264
    Reader plainjane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    So you think that Woolf is advocating we give up and commit suicide? You think she's advocating that no one procreate, no children be born, just go and paint our little pictures and let human life extinguish?

    From M-W:
    heroic

    Main Entry: 1he·ro·ic
    Pronunciation: hi-'rO-ik also her-'O- or hE-'rO-
    Variant(s): also he·ro·ical /-i-k&l/
    Function: adjective
    1 : of, relating to, resembling, or suggesting heroes especially of antiquity
    2 a : exhibiting or marked by courage and daring b : supremely noble or self-sacrificing
    3 a : of impressive size, power, extent, or effect <heroic doses> <a heroic voice> b (1) : of great intensity : EXTREME, DRASTIC <heroic effort> (2) : of a kind that is likely only to be undertaken to save a life <heroic surgery>
    4 : of, relating to, or constituting drama written during the Restoration in heroic couplets and concerned with a conflict between love and honor

    I advocate that Mrs. Ramsey is marked by courage, supremely noble, and self-sacrificing. And yes fecundity is heroic in the battle against nature. Nature as portrayed here is the force that destroys life; fecundity is the means of creating life.

    I reiterate, I do not find Mrs. Ramsay "heroic" in any shape, form, or manner.

    You know I had not thought so much that Woolf was advocating suicide, but really -- perhaps in a very subterranean manner she was. How many times in her life did she actually try to commit suicide?

  10. #265
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plainjane View Post
    I reiterate, I do not find Mrs. Ramsay "heroic" in any shape, form, or manner.
    Ok I guess we disagree.

    You know I had not thought so much that Woolf was advocating suicide, but really -- perhaps in a very subterranean manner she was. How many times in her life did she actually try to commit suicide?
    No one in this novel commits suicide. The novel stands as it's own work. Mrs R touches the lives of every character in the novel. And she fights the impossible battle of life itself, and if you sum up all the religious references that run through the novel is fighting God himself against human injustices. Yes i call that heroic.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  11. #266
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Wow, lots of action in this thread tonight. I briefly read some of the posts, but am watching a film presently, so I will answer some of this tomorrow. Glad to see a resurgence of interest in this thread.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  12. #267
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Good post, Quark, but not sure I agree on all points.
    Sigh. We never do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Why can't Lily be referring to Banks in a loving way but only as a friend? This is the way I took it. I've had many male friends I could easily say I love. I don't think she ever entertained thoughts of marrying William Bankes but maybe I am wrong. The statement prior to the last 4 words seems to indicate that he was her friend. She says that "Indeed, his friendship had been one of the pleasures of her life." I think I have felt that way about a true male friend, and never entertained thoughts of having a close physical relationship or marriage to them.
    You're right. There is room to interpret her love for William Bankes as close friendship. I think it's romantic, but there's nothing conclusive. It's another "how like this novel": we have an ambiguous relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I don't see that she is forced into any position. Lily is quite independent and has a mind of her own. If she feels something for Mr. Ramsey it is of her free will that it happens. I don't detect him being aggressive with her or any indication of her being forced into the position of wife. She does not need to marry the man to offer sympathy, even flattery. Yes, Lily cannot fill another woman's role as a replacement - no one effectively could take the place of Mrs. Ramsey - we are all individuals after all. She has a different style than Mrs. Ramsey. I don't think Lily is 'in love' with Mr. Ramsey either, and I don't think she would marry just for convenience or to sooth Mr. Ramsey, so that I am not really sure what will happen at the close of the story.
    I'll admit the word "forced" was a little strong. I didn't mean to suggest that Lily was coerced into coming back to the Ramsay household. I did mean to argue, though, that she was coerced into taking Mrs. Ramsay's place as the blanket which Mr. Ramsay can cry into. He does manipulate Lily--as he does to everyone around him--to give him the admiration and sympathy that he needs. Lily is independent still; she doesn't ever lose control of herself. She just has to appease Mr. Ramsay if she's going to live with their family.


    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I did not find closure in Mrs. Dalloway either.
    You know I just bought a copy of that, so don't spoil it for me. As for the ending of this novel, I think I'll hold off commenting on that until I say something about the section section. I never posted anything on that while we were talking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    I don't see Mrs. Ramsey as heroic but I see her with an inner beauty and strength and also much human fraility - she is human and feels many emotions and hurts and yet she is persistent in her way of life and keeping peace within her family. She is just plain a good hearted woman in my eyes, but no woman is a saint.
    This is my estimation of Mrs. Ramsay, too: likable--maybe even great in some ways--but not heroic in the literary sense or effectual in the context of the novel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Quark, how does she believe that marriage will alow her to overcome mortality and change? I did not understand your statement to this effect. She may be always thinking and questioning and coming up with no definitive answers to these 'eternal' questions, but then how many of us do have all the answers? Again, she is only human with human fears and repressions and doubts and frustrations, etc., and many emotions beneath/hidden perhaps.
    I posted something--pages and pages ago--where I put forward this idea, and no one really challenged it. I just thought I would let it float until it hit up against some skepticism. Now that it's bounced back to me I'll try to put something behind it. Hold on, actually. Let me repost my previous argument then we can go from there.

    "I wonder, though, are there not also--at the beginning of the story--unsatisfied desires and goals that the mother is trying to live out through the kids? Look at her need to pair everyone up. I think we best see into this part of Mrs. Ramsay when she is thinking about Prue's marriage. She says, "Is it good, is it bad, is it right or wrong? Where are we all going to? and so on. So she righted herself after the shock of the event, and quite unconsciously and incongruously, used the branches of the elm trees outside to help her to stabilise her position. Her world was changing: they were still. The event had given her a sense of movement. All must be in order... It flattered her, where she was most susceptible of flattery, to think how, wound about in their hearts, however long they lived she would be woven; and this, and this, and this, she thought, going upstairs, laughing, but affectionately, at the sofa on the landing (her mother's); at the rocking-chair (her father's); at the map of the Hebrides. All that would be revived again in the lives of Paul and Minta. . . . It was all one stream, and chairs, tables, maps, were hers, were theirs . . . and Paul and Minta would carry it on when she was dead" (115). Now I ruthlessly butchered that quote to make it succinct, but I do think it shows the different importance Mrs. Ramsay is placing on her children--what she hopes they will carry on."

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I'm not sure how a character can or cannot understand the themes of the novel he/she is in, unless it were metafication.
    Why not? We said isolation was a theme of the novel, and then we said that James, Mrs. Ramsay, and Mr. Ramsay each understood that kind of isolation. In fact, they probably understand that theme better than we do considering we base our understanding of it on their feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Mrs. Ramsey does survive in the hearts of those she touched and in her surviving children. In our struggle to overcome the power of nature to wipe out life, marriage and children are the means of fighting the destructing forces that Woolf sees nature as. I'll post right after this something on the middle section. But Mrs. R is portrayed as a fertility goddess. Here chapter 7 of the first part:

    She is fecundity, the mother of eight children, the one who's energy opposes the forces of sterilty and destruction. Woolf portrays a domestic situation in the novel but she projects heroic efforts from little actions. I'm sorry to diagree but Mrs Ramsey is supposed to be understood as heroic.
    Yeah, Mrs. Ramsay does go forth and multiply. In a sense, she does overcome death and change, but is that the sense that the novel means those words? I don't know if the Ramsays anxieties are tied to their own death. I think it has more to do with their fear that their intellectual and social ambitions might be thwarted. What makes Mr. Ramsay unhappy is the realization that he can't write another great work of philosophy. He might never reach Z. Mrs. Ramsay suffers a similar dissatisfaction when she realizes that he charity isn't enough to stop the world's suffering. She won't be able to elucidate the entire social problem. Both Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay have doubts about the importance of the work. Death and change both stand ready to claim all their greatest accomplishments. This is the mortality that they're afraid of.

    The individual emotions of the characters--or as Lily describes them, "the very jar on the nerves, the thing itself before it has been made into anything"--do survive and bring the characters together. For example, we were talking about James and Mr. Ramsay's togetherness at the end of the novel. No social pleasantries prompt this closeness, it's caused by a communion of lonely feelings. They come together because they both understand that feeling of isolation in life. These feelings are what Lily is trying to represent. And, it's what Woolf is trying to represent. It's also what a lot of other Modernist try to represent. D.H. Lawrence referred to this same idea as "life" instead of "emotion", but the concepts are quite similar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Two important points here. First the destruction alludes to, in scientific terms, entropy, the law of nature (2nd law of thermodynamics for those interested I am an engineer you know) that states that nature evolves to chaos and disorder. I'm fairly confident that Woolf is specifically thinking of entropy. It was something discussed in her day and the dramatisation describes it perfectly, even the concept of rusting. From Merriam-Webster: entropy: "2 a : the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder." Second, that middle paragraph I quoted lifts the conflict into a devine level. Entropy, the forces of destruction, is from God himself, and the human toil is Mrs. R's fight. (Remember this passage from chapter 10 of part I: "A sort of transaction went on between them, in which she was on one side, and life was on another, and she was always trying to get the better of it, as it was of her; and sometimes they parleyed (when she sat alone); there were, she remembered, great reconciliation scenes; but for the most part, oddly enough, she must admit that she felt this thing that she called life terrible, hostile, and quick to pounce on you if you gave it a chance.")

    And so you can read on about the destruction of the house and the lives and the eleven years that pass. It is also interesting to see how Mrs. McNab, the housekeeper of sorts,relates to a imaginary Mrs. Ramsey during this time. But she is ultimately asked to prepare the house again, and the human effort to combat entropy, the destructive force of nature, is dramatised:
    I don't know. Isn't Entropy more of a post-modernist invention. We associate the literary concept of Entropy with people like Thomas Pynchon and William Gaddis. In JR, for example, there's a great discussion of it. We might be getting a little ahead of ourselves if we say that Woolf was arguing that Entropy destroyed the Ramsay house. I think Woolf was trying to show that human ambitions can be defeated by nature--not human order, if that makes sense. Look at Andrew's death: I don't think Entropy killed him. Most likely, Woolf was trying to show the death of Mr. Ramsay's intellectual desires. Andrew was the brightest of the Ramsay children and he had some philosophical inclination. Mr. Ramsay concluded that it was alright if he didn't reach Z so long as someone else did. Obviously, he looked to Andrew to complete that goal. Woolf kills him in WW I to show that ideals, ambitions all change--not because the universe tends to chaos.

    Wow, that was exhausting. So many people posting so quickly. There were a couple of other posts that I meant to respond to, but it will have to wait until I can get some sleep.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  13. #268
    Reader plainjane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Ok I guess we disagree.



    No one in this novel commits suicide. The novel stands as it's own work. Mrs R touches the lives of every character in the novel. And she fights the impossible battle of life itself, and if you sum up all the religious references that run through the novel is fighting God himself against human injustices. Yes i call that heroic.
    You are the one that brought up suicide, I had not really connected that, but
    Virginia Woolf committed suicide. If you think her frame of mind did not influence the characters, I don't know what did.

    Mrs. Ramsay fights life just like everyone else on the planet, with some less success in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Ok I guess we disagree.
    No one in this novel commits suicide. The novel stands as it's own work. Mrs R touches the lives of every character in the novel. And she fights the impossible battle of life itself, and if you sum up all the religious references that run through the novel is fighting God himself against human injustices. Yes i call that heroic.
    I do think Woolf thought little of life, and that is what comes through for me. She disposes of Mrs. Ramsay, Prue and Andrew practically in one felled swoop, the life giving characters of the story. The house goes to rack and ruin, figuratively dies over the 10 years of neglect. I wonder why 10 years, the War only lasted a little over 4 years, but I digress, the neglect of the house is perhaps part of death process of the family.
    The ones that are left are either too old, too young, or not likely to reproduce [like Lily]. Death of a generation?

    Woolf writes beautifully, and innovatively, no question about that. But her severe depression and sad outlook on life comes through in a blast in To The Lighthouse, and while I love Woolf's writing, in this book at least I feel her depression coming through in a blast.

    You are right Virgil, there is no suicide in the book. But there is a dismissal of life that perhaps reflects Woolf's own.

  14. #269
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plainjane View Post
    I do think Woolf thought little of life, and that is what comes through for me. She disposes of Mrs. Ramsay, Prue and Andrew practically in one felled swoop, the life giving characters of the story. The house goes to rack and ruin, figuratively dies over the 10 years of neglect. I wonder why 10 years, the War only lasted a little over 4 years, but I digress, the neglect of the house is perhaps part of death process of the family.
    The ones that are left are either too old, too young, or not likely to reproduce [like Lily]. Death of a generation?

    Woolf writes beautifully, and innovatively, no question about that. But her severe depression and sad outlook on life comes through in a blast in To The Lighthouse, and while I love Woolf's writing, in this book at least I feel her depression coming through in a blast.

    You are right Virgil, there is no suicide in the book. But there is a dismissal of life that perhaps reflects Woolf's own.
    plainjane, I like the new avatar. I could never quite make out the old one.

    As for suicide, I don't think you can use Andrew's and Mrs. Ramsay's deaths as evidence for Woolf's fondness for death. Those characters' deaths are lamentable, and the surviving characters feel sharp pain at that loss--so does the reader I think. I think Andrew and Mrs. Ramsay had to die--really, I'm not saying this maliciously--because a great part of the book is about the failure of what those characters represent. But, that doens't mean that the book embraces death as better than life. And, I don't think even the biographical information would support this argument since Virginia Woolf was reportedly happy at that point in her life. Her mental disease--as she would come to call it--took over her life much later; and, even though she did choose death, I don't think she would have suggested that to her audience.

    I'm not saying that there isn't any evidence for suicidal feelings in To The Lighthouse. I'm just saying that the biographical and textual information you gave to support that claim were a little weak.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

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    Reader plainjane's Avatar
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    Quark,
    As far as I know Woolf suffered for the larger part of her life from her mental disease, that is not something that just hits like a bolt from the blue. The seeds and beginnings of it are there for many years, if not all of ones life.
    The degree may and does vary but is ever present.

    The very fact of all the failure you point out is evidence of a sad outlook of life.
    It has been many months since I read TTLH, I can only give impressions at this point, and a hopeless and depressive feeling are what I took away from it.

    I don't know I'd characterize Woolf as having a "fondness for death" as you put it, but she did have an aura of inevitability of disaster about her

    Ratz... I hit the wrong button!

    I meant to add that originally I'd posted....
    But there is a dismissal of life that perhaps reflects Woolf's own.
    And I cannot back away from that.

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