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Thread: A Plea for Thinking!

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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    A Plea for Thinking!

    This has the potential to be contentious, so let's try to keep it really seemly and we'll be fine.

    I see lots of students in here who are clearly able to display critical skills when discussing literature, and I'd like to put forward a plea for those same students to use those same critical skills in everyday life.

    I see far too many people sucked into obvious frauds, urban legends and general silliness that could easily be avoided if a few simple thinking skills were operated first. There are some really simple ones to start off with:

    "Too good to be true." Says it all. Once every thousand years or so, someone does give away money, just because they like you! The rest of the time, they don't. Nobody in Nigeria actually wants to give you $US10,000,000 and that pyramid game your friend made $30k from is illegal.

    "Is this real?" This is best applied to things like e mails, news from friends, anything where something is unusual. I couldn't count the number of urban legends I've had passed to me during my life, but it would be thousands by now. Some of them are highly cunning and some have been around for centuries. These can be all sorts of things - from means of contracting AIDS to treatments for cancer and impotence, to pleas for help by allegedly sick children. Most of these are so old and boring that I've seen them several times. Even ones which seem to do no harm - one I received last week, from my boy's rugby club - can be dangerous. The club forwarded an official e mail to all parents, warning of the dangers of drug dealers giving away crystal methamphetamine-laced lollies to kids and asking parents and kids to be on guard.

    Now, how can that be harmful, you ask? Surely that e mail raises awareness of drug abuse, which is good?

    Alas, that would be completely incorrect.

    The e mail contained information that both NZ Police and hospitals were aware of this process and that "several children" had been hospitalised.

    Fortunately, I knew that the police had no knowledge of such things happening and I knew that crystal methamphetamine is virtually harmless if taken orally and I quickly found out that no kids has been treated at NZ hospitals for crystal methamphetamine ingestion. I also knew that drug dealers just don't work like that. I obtained evidence to confirm what I said and explained all this to the chairman of the club, whose decision it was to forward the misinformation.

    To understand why this sort of thing is dangerous, I drew an example for him.

    Imagine you're a father and you want to discuss drugs with your child.

    You start off by pointing out the dangers of drug abuse.

    You show pictures of people with teeth rotting from meth smoking.

    You tell them to watch out for drug dealers in the playground and that lollies could really be drugs.

    You tell them that marijuana is a gateway drug.

    At a later stage, your child meets up with someone who is an actual drug user. That person has a job and uses drugs recreationally, has no rotting teeth and generally appears quite normal. All of a sudden, lots of what you've told your child has been blown away as cheap rhetoric.

    The child wonders, "If all those things I've been told aren't true, then maybe the whole drugs are bad thing is over-rated and I should give it a try!"

    Kids are best off when given the truth at all times. There is no upside in telling them lies and no downside in telling them the truth.

    Take homeopathy. Lots of people swear by it. Those people are clearly unaware of the "placebo effect", a well-known and well-documented medical process where people think they feel better, simply because they expect to. Now, without causing too much argument, I'd like people to realise that homeopathy isn't just a lie, it's an absurd lie. The premise is absurd - that water somehow "remembers" a molecular formula and "copies" it so that the water carries the same benefit as the original medicine. Anyone with even the most basic cheistry knowledge is able to tell you that water can only be broken down into two things - oxygen and hydrogen. Those atoms can't change and they most certainly cannot remember anything.

    I'm not going to mention religion too much, because that's a very much personal choice kind of thing, but if you choose to join a religion, don't join one which blatantly lies to you. For instance, religions which state that the earth is 6000 years old are just plain wrong. There is no evidence at all to back that up, while there are literally thousands of different means of ageing the earth at ~4.5 billion years of age.

    Many of the christians I converse with are a lot smarter than me and not one of them even begins to consider the possibility of the known age of the planet being out by 99.999%, which is what would be needed for the earth to be 6000 years old. To avoid that is to avoid thinking. Note that the age of the earth is neither an argument for god nor evolution, just a simple fact. It is certainly possible to use logic to arrive at the conclusion that god exists, but it's illogical to arrive at conclusions which are unsupported by any evidence whatsoever.

    "New Age" practices. Astrology, psychics, crystal energy, auras and the like.

    Well, the first giveaway should be in the attempt to label these practices as anything new. They have all been around for centuries, and most of them far longer than christianity. That they need to be constantly "renewed" is a direct guide to their effectiveness: zero. If anyone were truly psychic, or astrology really predicted events, practitioners of it would be feted worldwide as Messiahs. Instead, they appeal to a small sector of society, for whom mysticism is an essential part of life. There are a multitude of "challenges" worldwide for psychics or astrologers to complete which would earn them millions of dollars and worldwide acclaim. None have managed it so far and I strongly doubt that anyone ever will - people have claimed all sorts of mind-power over the centuries, but none have ever worked.

    Politics is an area where thinking is more than a little helpful. I don't care which side you're on, vote for whoever is best for you, but don't take politicians at their words, check their history. If they've consistently supported a policy, it's fairly likely that that is their honest view. If a politician chops and changes his policies with public opinion, it's a good bet that he is going to be telling you what he thinks you want to hear, rather than what he really intends.

    I'm a recruiter and I hear plenty of baloney in my line of work. Some employers will tell me of grand expansion plans, while actually doing no more than building castles in the sky, and candidates tell me of achievements which, in reality, they've sat on the sidelines and watched.

    Remember, anyone can make an assertion, but only those in possession of facts can back it up with evidence.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  2. #2
    Flying against the wind CdnReader's Avatar
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    While I agree that critical thinking is always the first step to clarification, and while I support your initial statements about fake emails and money-grabbing scams, and about telling your children the truth, I find two troublesome assumptions within the continuation of your line of thinking.

    Firstly, that science and logic can be trusted for all of the answers. Science is a cultural construct of man, very little different from religion in many respects. Science can be flawed and misdirected, manipulated to create desired results, or skewed to avoid coming to unwanted conclusions. Science is subject to political, economic, social, and yes - even religious constraints. Science, mysticism, and religion are all products of human culture. Different societies rely on them in different ways for different reasons. Clearly, your cultural background has brought you to rely on science, but that has no relationship to the overriding value of science as a universal truth.

    Secondly, assuming that your culture depends on science, your comments above imply that science never changes, that what science "knows" today is the same thing that science will "know" in the future. This is patently untrue. I'm sure you will agree that science is in an ever-changing state of flux and change; new discoveries are made every day in multitudes of areas. At one time, science "knew" that the world was flat. Should we have accepted that as the final truth about the shape of the world? Your comments (to choose one topic) on homeopathy rely on the argument that "water can only be broken down into two things - oxygen and hydrogen. Those atoms can't change and they most certainly cannot remember anything." Shall we assume then, that science will never change its position on this fact? Perhaps all scientists investigating these phenomena should stop their investigations, as we now "know" everything there is to know, and we already "know" the final truth?

    To extrapolate further, if we are to believe that science has all the answers, let us look back to the ages of the hunter/gatherers, before science - as we know it today - even existed. Perhaps they should never have wondered about the "reality" of the world. They didn't know about quantum dynamics or atomic theory. As far as they knew, these things didn't exist. Hmmm......
    *

    "Courage is not the absence of fear but the judgment that something else is more important than fear." -- Ambrose Redmoon

    CR: Madame Bovary, by Gustave Flaubert
    JF: Pride and Prejudice, by Jane Austen. My review is here.

  3. #3
    Something's gotta give PrinceMyshkin's Avatar
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    Thanks, Atheist, for this caring post.

    And thank you, Cdn, for calling into question what you feel is Atheist's (and my) perhaps unthinking trust in science.

  4. #4
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdnReader View Post
    While I agree that critical thinking is always the first step to clarification, and while I support your initial statements about fake emails and money-grabbing scams, and about telling your children the truth, I find two troublesome assumptions within the continuation of your line of thinking.

    Firstly, that science and logic can be trusted for all of the answers. ...

    Secondly, assuming that your culture depends on science, your comments above imply that science never changes, that what science "knows" today is the same thing that science will "know" in the future.....
    That's quite a leap of logic you've made yourself here, considering I didn't mention science in my entire post and I said that logic can be used to show the existence of god. I'm a bit disturbed that you may have seen what you wanted to see rather than what I said. I made one absolute statement - that hydrogen and oxygen can't change. That is a fact. Say you remove the elctron from a hydrogen atom. What you are then left with is a nucleus and an electron, not a hydrogen atom with no electron. Hydrogen is defined by its properties - helium isn't a hydrogen atom with two electrons, it is a helium atom.

    I suspect that you may have been further misled because I didn't note science as an area to apply critical thinking. I missed it out along with hundreds of other subjects, only because I didn't want the post to be any longer than it is and because science is largely self-regulatory in that regard. Science contains an important element - "peer review" - which means that all scientific work is open to review, testing, analysis and criticism by other scientists. No, that doesn't mean it's always right, but it does work in keeping the vast majority of pseudoscience at bay and ensuring that developments and discoveries are real.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  5. #5
    yes, that's me, your friendly Moderator 💚 Logos's Avatar
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    The Atheist, I hope you don't mind, I've moved this from General Chat to the Philosophy section where I think it is more appropo
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    Bonafide...Savage. Neo_Sephiroth's Avatar
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    Too good to be true? Pheesh! No way!!! The countless surveys on the internet is soooo not fake!
    "The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of the people and then they take themselves out of the slums. Christ changes men, who then changes their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature." ~ Ezra Taft Benson

  7. #7
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    The Atheist, I hope you don't mind, I've moved this from General Chat to the Philosophy section where I think it is more appropo
    Good thinking, should have started it there myself.

    Cheers
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  8. #8
    Novella MaryLupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdnReader View Post
    Science is a cultural construct of man, very little different from religion in many respects. Science can be flawed and misdirected, manipulated to create desired results, or skewed to avoid coming to unwanted conclusions. Science is subject to political, economic, social, and yes - even religious constraints.
    A good deal is made of the "constructed" nature of science and yet (as Atheist pointed out below) people often forget that there is a fail-safe built into the procedures of science. This is empirical testing. Religion (and other cultural pursuits) often heavily resist such worldly rigor. But yes you are quite correct that science is prey to all the human foibles. It is, after all, practiced by human beings. The difference is best seen in a comparison of examples, using one you gave us. Yes it used to be believed that the earth was flat and many learned men scoffed at the idea that the earth was round because it was "common sense" that if it were round and moving we would fall off. Now, due to science and hundreds of years of general education, most people trust science to be correct about the reasons why the earth is round and spinning and we don't fly off. On the other hand, many people still believe that there was a single flood that killed everyone (all animals and all humans) and that the survivors all were kept on a boat and that the entire population was reseeded by those 2by2s. This despite all the empirical evidence to the contrary. This is a difference that matters and what separates science and religion as 2 completely different kinds of human cultural pursuits.
    I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.


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    laudator temporis acti andave_ya's Avatar
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    Thank you for the caring thread, the Atheist. Thinking helps!
    "The time has come," the Walrus said,
    "To talk of many things:
    Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
    Of cabbages--and kings--
    And why the sea is boiling hot--
    And whether pigs have wings."

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post



    At a later stage, your child meets up with someone who is an actual drug user. That person has a job and uses drugs recreationally, has no rotting teeth and generally appears quite normal. All of a sudden, lots of what you've told your child has been blown away as cheap rhetoric.
    .
    People who do meth don't have jobs. You need to meet a meth addict asap, because they are completely out of it, and in no way would you consider them normal, because they would be shaking and stuttering long after they quite. Meth is sick. Meth actually is a problem in NZ, largely because it is difficult and expensive to find other drugs, except for party pills which they sell at cornerstores, and really result in a terrible hangover. Great night on the town though.

    Good for you for figuring out the proper way to think. Possibly you should write an expensive book? Contentious? How 'bout pretentious?

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    I thought that was a good argument: if they see you have embellished or told them outright lies, they will question your other assertions. It's better to tell the truth about drugs and their effects.

    I do find it presumptuous to say that no meth addicts have jobs. The ones I have known have had, but if they pinched a nerve they were out of work for a week instead of a day. A common job for meth users is construction. And meth is just one drug. Certainly lots and lots of other drugs can go unnoticed: just look at the restaurant business. For sure, the deteriorating effects take many years usually.
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 08-10-2007 at 06:47 PM.

  12. #12
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derringer View Post
    People who do meth don't have jobs. You need to meet a meth addict asap, because they are completely out of it, and in no way would you consider them normal, because they would be shaking and stuttering long after they quite. Meth is sick. Meth actually is a problem in NZ, largely because it is difficult and expensive to find other drugs, except for party pills which they sell at cornerstores, and really result in a terrible hangover. Great night on the town though.
    I can [but obviously won't] give you the names and addresses of six crystal meth addicts, all of whom have good jobs. I am assured by these and other people that there are many other people I know of who are also hooked on it and who have jobs. Because I only have hearsay evidence of those, I'm willing to discount them and work with six I know for certain qualify under both.

    I think you may be watching too much tv and not getting enough realism. Crikey, the mere statistics should tell you that - have a look at the number of addicts in NZ, work out the price of the stuff, then ask yourself where they all manage to get the money to buy it. Not all methamphetamine addicts are raging nutcases who go around robbing banks, shooting people and beating their kids to death. Not by a long chalk.

    Please don't be using anecdotal evidence obtained through mass-media on this subject to argue with me, because it is one of my expert subjects. Please also be aware that I am 100% opposed to it because it is a highly destructive drug.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derringer View Post
    Good for you for figuring out the proper way to think. Possibly you should write an expensive book? Contentious? How 'bout pretentious?
    Just because you personally don't like it, hardly calls for that kind of comment, I imagine that I learnt to think long before your birth. Some people enjoy my commentaries and you don't. Fortunately, I write for those who still have things to learn. I'm pleased that you've already passed that milestone.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  13. #13
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I thought that was a good argument: if they see you have embellished or told them outright lies, they will question your other assertions. It's better to tell the truth about drugs and their effects.

    I do find it presumptuous to say that no meth addicts have jobs. The ones I have known have had, but if they pinched a nerve they were out of work for a week instead of a day. A common job for meth users is construction. And meth is just one drug. Certainly lots and lots of other drugs can go unnoticed: just look at the restaurant business. For sure, the deteriorating effects take many years usually.
    Cheers.

    Actually, the biggest user base down here, among the employed, is probably long-distance truck drivers. The money is huge at the moment and worth the expenditure of the money to keep it going, but they mess themselves up eventually.

    Scary usage.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  14. #14
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andave_ya View Post
    Thank you for the caring thread, the Atheist. Thinking helps!
    Thanks!
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post

    "New Age" practices. Astrology, psychics, crystal energy, auras and the like.

    Well, the first giveaway should be in the attempt to label these practices as anything new. They have all been around for centuries, and most of them far longer than christianity. That they need to be constantly "renewed" is a direct guide to their effectiveness: zero. If anyone were truly psychic, or astrology really predicted events, practitioners of it would be feted worldwide as Messiahs. Instead, they appeal to a small sector of society, for whom mysticism is an essential part of life. There are a multitude of "challenges" worldwide for psychics or astrologers to complete which would earn them millions of dollars and worldwide acclaim. None have managed it so far and I strongly doubt that anyone ever will - people have claimed all sorts of mind-power over the centuries, but none have ever worked.

    Politics is an area where thinking is more than a little helpful. I don't care which side you're on, vote for whoever is best for you, but don't take politicians at their words, check their history. If they've consistently supported a policy, it's fairly likely that that is their honest view. If a politician chops and changes his policies with public opinion, it's a good bet that he is going to be telling you what he thinks you want to hear, rather than what he really intends.
    These things are hard to see through because man(a high percentage of his kind) is still a extremely superstitious. About 800 hundred years ago people were forced to jump in a river in order to be cleared of guilt (in which case if they drowned they were inocent). Even though humanity made a lot of progress technologically this primitive side is still present in the minds of most people. And most people don't have the basic understanding of chemistry or other sciences. Some people on the other hand need to hear the things that some psychics can tell them. There will always be fraudsters that will "rob" people of their money, and that is fine with me. I think its good that all of these things exist, because they can tell us much about a person who believes in that kind of crap.

    But I disagree on your view of politicians. You say that if a politician changes his policies with public opinion there is a great chance that he is lying to you. But isn't a politician who never changes his view of the world and his political agenda even worse then the first one? It is sad if a man in his whole life changes his political views. It is then when he will be lying to you. He be destined to (formaly)support some ideas that he no longer believes in, and that will in the end lead to even greater lies. Take Winston Churchill for example, he first began as a conservative, then switched sides to be a member of the liberal party... Im not trying to give you a history lesson, I'm just trying to say that I would personaly be more cautios of a politician who never changes his mind then a one who does.

    And by the way I really like your post, it has a very clear outline.
    Everyone
    Everyone around here
    Everyone is so near
    It's holding on
    It's holding on

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