View Poll Results: 'Women in Love': Final Verdict

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Thread: June / Lawrence Reading: 'Women in Love'

  1. #271
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Gerald looked round the room. It was an ordinary London sitting-room in a flat, evidently taken furnished, rather common and ugly. But there were several negro statues, wood-carvings from West Africa, strange and disturbing, the carved negroes looked almost like the foetus of a human being. One was a woman sitting naked in a strange posture, and looking tortured, her abdomen stuck out. The young Russian explained that she was sitting in child-birth, clutching the ends of the band that hung from her neck, one in each hand, so that she could bear down, and help labour. The strange, transfixed, rudimentary face of the woman again reminded Gerald of a foetus, it was also rather wonderful, conveying the suggestion of the extreme of physical sensation, beyond the limits of mental consciousness.

    `Aren't they rather obscene?' he asked, disapproving.

    `I don't know,' murmured the other rapidly. `I have never defined the obscene. I think they are very good.'

    Gerald turned away. There were one or two new pictures in the room, in the Futurist manner; there was a large piano. And these, with some ordinary London lodging-house furniture of the better sort, completed the whole.
    Papayahed, is this that part you are referring to in Chapter VI?

    Ok, for the last hour or so I have been searching through the text and postings for references to the figurines and I come up with some discussions starting at post #117, about Lawrence's 'blood philosophy' which is first layed out and explained by Virgil. If you continue on through post #120, and maybe even a little further on you will see the discussion about the African figures and how they relate to this philosophy or idea. I hope this helps some. You might have to skip over some unnecessary parts of the postings.
    Last edited by Janine; 07-14-2007 at 10:49 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  2. #272
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Of course as part of looking closely at chapter 30 we should discuss Gudrun and Loerke's relationship.

    She had a curious sort of allegiance with Loerke, all the while, now, something insidious and traitorous. Gerald knew of it. But in the unnatural state of patience, and the unwillingness to harden himself against her, in which he found himself, he took no notice, although her soft kindliness to the other man, whom he hated as a noxious insect, made him shiver again with an access of the strange shuddering that came over him repeatedly.
    They have their art in common:

    They were almost of the same ideas. He hated Mestrovic, was not satisfied with the Futurists, he liked the West African wooden figures, the Aztec art, Mexican and Central American. He saw the grotesque, and a curious sort of mechanical motion intoxicated him, a confusion in nature. They had a curious game with each other, Gudrun and Loerke, of infinite suggestivity, strange and leering, as if they had some esoteric understanding of life, that they alone were initiated into the fearful central secrets, that the world dared not know. Their whole correspondence was in a strange, barely comprehensible suggestivity, they kindled themselves at the subtle lust of the Egyptians or the Mexicans. The whole game was one of subtle inter-suggestivity, and they wanted to keep it on the plane of suggestion. From their verbal and physical nuances they got the highest satisfaction in the nerves, from a queer interchange of half-suggested ideas, looks, expressions and gestures, which were quite intolerable, though incomprehensible, to Gerald. He had no terms in which to think of their commerce, his terms were much too gross.

    The suggestion of primitive art was their refuge, and the inner mysteries of sensation their object of worship. Art and Life were to them the Reality and the Unreality.

    `Of course,' said Gudrun, `life doesn't really matter -- it is one's art which is central. What one does in one's life has peu de rapport, it doesn't signify much.'

    `Yes, that is so, exactly,' replied the sculptor. `What one does in one's art, that is the breath of one's being. What one does in one's life, that is a bagatelle for the outsiders to fuss about.'

    It was curious what a sense of elation and freedom Gudrun found in this communication. She felt established for ever. Of course Gerald was bagatelle. Love was one of the temporal things in her life, except in so far as she was an artist. She thought of Cleopatra -- Cleopatra must have been an artist; she reaped the essential from a man, she harvested the ultimate sensation, and threw away the husk; and Mary Stuart, and the great Rachel, panting with her lovers after the theatre, these were the exoteric exponents of love. After all, what was the lover but fuel for the transport of this subtle knowledge, for a female art, the art of pure, perfect knowledge in sensuous understanding.
    "Art and Life were to them the Reality and the Unreality." Much is made of how Lawrence puts down industrialism in the novel, but he also puts down aesthecism. Art is another diversion, another repetitive cycle to take you away from the spiritual connection. Gudrun seems to be absorbed into Loerke:
    `Yes. You cannot go back to the teaching. No --' he shrugged his shoulders -- `that is impossible. Leave that to the canaille who can do nothing else. You, for your part -- you know, you are a remarkable woman, eine seltsame Frau. Why deny it -- why make any question of it? You are an extraordinary woman, why should you follow the ordinary course, the ordinary life?'

    Gudrun sat looking at her hands, flushed. She was pleased that he said, so simply, that she was a remarkable woman. He would not say that to flatter her - - he was far too self-opinionated and objective by nature. He said it as he would say a piece of sculpture was remarkable, because he knew it was so.

    And it gratified her to hear it from him. Other people had such a passion to make everything of one degree, of one pattern. In England it was chic to be perfectly ordinary. And it was a relief to her to be acknowledged extraordinary. Then she need not fret about the common standards.
    And they are very European. They have been to many cities, cycles of cities, as if each city was a work of art to be evaluated:
    `Paris, no!' he said. `Between the religion d'amour, and the latest 'ism, and the new turning to Jesus, one had better ride on a carrousel all day. But come to Dresden. I have a studio there -- I can give you work, -- oh, that would be easy enough. I haven't seen any of your things, but I believe in you. Come to Dresden -- that is a fine town to be in, and as good a life as you can expect of a town. You have everything there, without the foolishness of Paris or the beer of Munich.'
    And Loerke manipulates her and she is willing to be manipulated:
    `A bore,' he repeated. `What does it matter whether I wear this hat or another. So love. I needn't wear a hat at all, only for convenience. Neither need I love except for convenience. I tell you what, gnadige Frau --' and he leaned towards her -- then he made a quick, odd gesture, as of striking something aside -- `gnadige Fraulein, never mind -- I tell you what, I would give everything, everything, all your love, for a little companionship in intelligence --' his eyes flickered darkly, evilly at her. `You understand?' he asked, with a faint smile. `It wouldn't matter if she were a hundred years old, a thousand -- it would be all the same to me, so that she can understand.' He shut his eyes with a little snap.

    Again Gudrun was rather offended. Did he not think her good looking, then? Suddenly she laughed.

    `I shall have to wait about eighty years to suit you, at that!' she said. `I am ugly enough, aren't I?'

    He looked at her with an artist's sudden, critical, estimating eye.

    `You are beautiful,' he said, `and I am glad of it. But it isn't that -- it isn't that,' he cried, with emphasis that flattered her. `It is that you have a certain wit, it is the kind of understanding. For me, I am little, chetif, insignificant. Good! Do not ask me to be strong and handsome, then. But it is the me --' he put his fingers to his mouth, oddly -- `it is the me that is looking for a mistress, and my me is waiting for the thee of the mistress, for the match to my particular intelligence. You understand?'
    And Gerald at one point wants to know what it is that Gudrun sees in Lorke:
    Gerald was gradually overcome with a revulsion of loathing for Loerke. He did not take the man seriously, he despised him merely, except as he felt in Gudrun's veins the influence of the little creature. It was this that drove Gerald wild, the feeling in Gudrun's veins of Loerke's presence, Loerke's being, flowing dominant through her.

    `What makes you so smitten with that little vermin?' he asked, really puzzled. For he, man-like, could not see anything attractive or important at all in Loerke. Gerald expected to find some handsomeness or nobleness, to account for a woman's subjection. But he saw none here, only an insect-like repulsiveness.

    Gudrun flushed deeply. It was these attacks she would never forgive.

    `What do you mean?' she replied. `My God, what a mercy I am not married to you!'

    Her voice of flouting and contempt scotched him. He was brought up short. But he recovered himself.

    `Tell me, only tell me,' he reiterated in a dangerous narrowed voice -- `tell me what it is that fascinates you in him.'

    `I am not fascinated,' she said, with cold repelling innocence.

    `Yes, you are. You are fascinated by that little dry snake, like a bird gaping ready to fall down its throat.'

    She looked at him with black fury.

    `I don't choose to be discussed by you,' she said.

    `It doesn't matter whether you choose or not,' he replied, `that doesn't alter the fact that you are ready to fall down and kiss the feet of that little insect. And I don't want to prevent you -- do it, fall down and kiss his feet. But I want to know, what it is that fascinates you -- what is it?'
    She doesn't answer Gerald here, but she does answer it later to us the reader in a moment of her rationalizing to herself:
    `As for Loerke, there is a thousand times more in him than in a Gerald. Gerald is so limited, there is a dead end to him. He would grind on at the old mills forever. And really, there is no corn between the millstones any more. They grind on and on, when there is nothing to grind -- saying the same things, believing the same things, acting the same things. Oh, my God, it would wear out the patience of a stone.

    `I don't worship Loerke, but at any rate, he is a free individual. He is not stiff with conceit of his own maleness. He is not grinding dutifully at the old mills. Oh God, when I think of Gerald, and his work -- those offices at Beldover, and the mines -- it makes my heart sick. What have I to do with it -- and him thinking he can be a lover to a woman! One might as well ask it of a self-satisfied lamp-post. These men, with their eternal jobs -- and their eternal mills of God that keep on grinding at nothing! It is too boring, just boring. However did I come to take him seriously at all!

    `At least in Dresden, one will have one's back to it all. And there will be amusing things to do. It will be amusing to go to these eurythmic displays, and the German opera, the German theatre. It will be amusing to take part in German Bohemian life. And Loerke is an artist, he is a free individual. One will escape from so much, that is the chief thing, escape so much hideous boring repetition of vulgar actions, vulgar phrases, vulgar postures. I don't delude myself that I shall find an elixir of life in Dresden. I know I shan't. But I shall get away from people who have their own homes and their own children and their own acquaintances and their own this and their own that. I shall be among people who don't own things and who haven't got a home and a domestic servant in the background, who haven't got a standing and a status and a degree and a circle of friends of the same. Oh God, the wheels within wheels of people, it makes one's head tick like a clock, with a very madness of dead mechanical monotony and meaninglessness. How I hate life, how I hate it. How I hate the Geralds, that they can offer one nothing else.
    Gerald is the macho man, Loerke the homosexual. Gerald the industrialist; Loerke the aesthete. Gerald the rich man; Loerke the poor man. Gerald the Englishman; Loerke the German. She has tried one and is now bored with it; it is time to try something different, another thing that may bring happiness, another promise of satisfaction. It is a new mountain to climb, having climbed and done with the previous.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #273
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I wanted to also wanted to discuss the climax in chapter 30, so be forewarned:
    *********************SPOILER**********************

    I want to start just before Gerald comes upon Gudrun and Leorke. Gudrun and Leorke are enjoying themselves on the mountain. Loerke takes out biscuits and Schnapps and the two find the moment in the snowy, silvery twilight perfect.
    She could feel their voices, hers and his, ringing silvery like bells in the frozen, motionless air of the first twilight. How perfect it was, how very perfect it was, this silvery isolation and interplay.

    She sipped the hot coffee, whose fragrance flew around them like bees murmuring around flowers, in the snowy air, she drank tiny sips of the Heidelbeerwasser, she ate the cold, sweet, creamy wafers. How good everything was! How perfect everything tasted and smelled and sounded, here in this utter stillness of snow and falling twilight.

    `You are going away tomorrow?' his voice came at last.

    `Yes.'

    There was a pause, when the evening seemed to rise in its silent, ringing pallor infinitely high, to the infinite which was near at hand.

    `Wohin?'

    That was the question -- wohin? Whither? Wohin? What a lovely word! She never wanted it answered. Let it chime for ever.

    `I don't know,' she said, smiling at him.
    "Whither," a very important Lawentian word. The moment of pleasure, escatasy has come, a potential moment at the point of transcendence. But instead of transfiguring or transcending, the emotion is whither - what next? Here we are but where do we go now? We have reached the end of this cycle of emotion, and so where is the next.

    Then Gerald shows up suddenly and smacks Loerke to the ground. But Gudrun still has her pluck:
    But Gudrun moved forward. She raised her clenched hand high, and brought it down, with a great downward stroke on to the face and on to the breast of Gerald.
    Here we recall that scene Gudrun strikes that blow at Gerald back at the water-party scene. And as before Gerald is shocked.
    A great astonishment burst upon him, as if the air had broken. Wide, wide his soul opened, in wonder, feeling the pain. Then it laughed, turning, with strong hands outstretched, at last to take the apple of his desire. At last he could finish his desire.
    Again we have the imagery of Gerald fragmented, openned up. The blow has reached down into his subconscious and that desire to kill comes out:
    He took the throat of Gudrun between his hands, that were hard and indomitably powerful. And her throat was beautifully, so beautifully soft, save that, within, he could feel the slippery chords of her life. And this he crushed, this he could crush. What bliss! Oh what bliss, at last, what satisfaction, at last! The pure zest of satisfaction filled his soul. He was watching the unconsciousness come unto her swollen face, watching the eyes roll back. How ugly she was! What a fulfilment, what a satisfaction! How good this was, oh how good it was, what a God-given gratification, at last! He was unconscious of her fighting and struggling. The struggling was her reciprocal lustful passion in this embrace, the more violent it became, the greater the frenzy of delight, till the zenith was reached, the crisis, the struggle was overborne, her movement became softer, appeased.
    He is reaching his moment of satisfaction, his bliss. Strangling her will achieve his moment of satisfaction. But he doesn't complete it. I think this is very important. He has the power and ability to kill her and he doesn't go through with it. Why?
    Loerke roused himself on the snow, too dazed and hurt to get up. Only his eyes were conscious.

    `Monsieur!' he said, in his thin, roused voice: `Quand vous aurez fini --'

    A revulsion of contempt and disgust came over Gerald's soul. The disgust went to the very bottom of him, a nausea. Ah, what was he doing, to what depths was he letting himself go! As if he cared about her enough to kill her, to have her life on his hands!

    A weakness ran over his body, a terrible relaxing, a thaw, a decay of strength. Without knowing, he had let go his grip, and Gudrun had fallen to her knees. Must he see, must he know?

    A fearful weakness possessed him, his joints were turned to water. He drifted, as on a wind, veered, and went drifting away.

    `I didn't want it, really,' was the last confession of disgust in his soul, as he drifted up the slope, weak, finished, only sheering off unconsciously from any further contact. `I've had enough -- I want to go to sleep. I've had enough.' He was sunk under a sense of nausea.
    I can't help but see it as a moment of transcendence over the will of his subconscious. "'I didn't want it, really'" and "'Ive had enough.'" It is as if he realizes that after he kills her, "whither?" "What next?" What would it have accomplished. Everything we have seen and read is his desire and propensity for him to kill her and he overcomes it. I can't quite call it heroic, but some measure of noblity should be given him. And then he is broken inside and goes off and accepts his death. He is tired of the cycles and his only way to stop them is to end himself.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  4. #274
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Two excellent posts, Virgil, lots to think about here. I will answer later tonight.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  5. #275
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    I have one more analytic post on Women In Love. There is an interesting passage in the last chapter "Exeunt" (chapter 31). Birkin returns to the mountains to help Gudrun after Gerald has died. He goes to investigte the the death scene:
    Gerald might have found this rope. He might have hauled himself up to the crest. He might have heard the dogs in the Marienhutte, and found shelter. He might have gone on, down the steep, steep fall of the south-side, down into the dark valley with its pines, on to the great Imperial road leading south to Italy.

    He might! And what then? The Imperial road! The south? Italy? What then? Was it a way out? It was only a way in again. Birkin stood high in the painful air, looking at the peaks, and the way south. Was it any good going south, to Italy? Down the old, old Imperial road?
    Again we get this "what next" for Gerald if he had lived. Whither? And it's apparent to Birkin that there was nothing left for Gerald.

    He turned away. Either the heart would break, or cease to care. Best cease to care. Whatever the mystery which has brought forth man and the universe, it is a non-human mystery, it has its own great ends, man is not the criterion. Best leave it all to the vast, creative, non-human mystery. Best strive with oneself only, not with the universe.
    And from Gerald he begins to contemplate the religious significance of life.

    `God cannot do without man.' It was a saying of some great French religious teacher. But surely this is false. God can do without man. God could do without the ichthyosauri and the mastodon. These monsters failed creatively to develop, so God, the creative mystery, dispensed with them. In the same way the mystery could dispense with man, should he too fail creatively to change and develop. The eternal creative mystery could dispose of man, and replace him with a finer created being. Just as the horse has taken the place of the mastodon.
    I find this an interesting religious notion. God is essentially uncaring about man and his predicament in the universe. That is not original. Hardy and other late 19th century thinkers may have shared this. But here I think is where it is only Lawrence's conceptualization:

    It was very consoling to Birkin, to think this. If humanity ran into a cul de sac and expended itself, the timeless creative mystery would bring forth some other being, finer, more wonderful, some new, more lovely race, to carry on the embodiment of creation. The game was never up. The mystery of creation was fathomless, infallible, inexhaustible, forever. Races came and went, species passed away, but ever new species arose, more lovely, or equally lovely, always surpassing wonder. The fountain-head was incorruptible and unsearchable. It had no limits. It could bring forth miracles, create utter new races and new species, in its own hour, new forms of consciousness, new forms of body, new units of being. To be man was as nothing compared to the possibilities of the creative mystery. To have one's pulse beating direct from the mystery, this was perfection, unutterable satisfaction. Human or inhuman mattered nothing. The perfect pulse throbbed with indescribable being, miraculous unborn species.
    It is up to man to put himself in contact with the divinity. This is where Birkin and Ursula in their polar star relationship will be. As you can grasp, the ideal relationship with this divinity is as a plant, basking in the glory of this fountainhead. In other works, the fountainhead tends to be the sun.



    One last thing. Now that I have studied Women In Love in real detail, perhaps it is as great or greater than Lawrence's The Rainbow. I encourage everyone to read The Rainbow and let me know which is the greater work. I now have a hard time deciding. This was a real pleasure.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  6. #276
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Ok, I think it is about time for me to answer Virgil's remarks and 3 posts; I am taking them one at a time. When you encounter a : please see his quoted text from his post 7/14/07 10:16PM. Sorry it took me so long to get to these additional comments. Here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Of course as part of looking closely at chapter 30 we should discuss Gudrun and Loerke's relationship.

    They have their art in common:
    Yes, I think that is a big factor. The art draws them together and they can understand each other, both being artists. I think too, that Gundrun is mesmerized and bedazzled with Loerke and his art. She is impressed with his art and him; so she feels associating with him, can lift her own 'statis' as an artist in the art community. She must feel flattered as well, seeing that Loerke has such artistic talent, and has taken an avid interest in her. I think also his directness is attractive to her. She can't help but like that 'directness' and it makes him somewhat dangerous and exciting to know. Loerke is a very unihibited person while Gerald is all inhabitions. Loerke is loose, while Gerald is all tied up in knots.

    "Art and Life were to them the Reality and the Unreality." Much is made of how Lawrence puts down industrialism in the novel, but he also puts down aesthecism. Art is another diversion, another repetitive cycle to take you away from the spiritual connection. Gudrun seems to be absorbed into Loerke:
    This is interesting considering Lawrence himself loved art and painting/drawing. Do you find it strange he would do this in the novel? Do you think, Virgil, that later he felt differently about it? I thought he was putting down the idea of 'art serving industry', not art as a whole.

    And they are very European. They have been to many cities, cycles of cities, as if each city was a work of art to be evaluated:
    This Eruopean way that Loerke had only made him the more appealing to Gundrun to know. He could show her around to the inner circle of artists and very European thinking people who would advance her in an art career. I think that Loerke was the link to that other world outside England for Gundrun into that free-thinking Bohemian world of Paris and Germany at the time.

    And Loerke manipulates her and she is willing to be manipulated:
    Definitely agree and she likes this manipulation. When someone is manipulated all the pressure is off that person and they can give over to the other and not have to make decisions. He can control her, in a sense; something Gerald was unable to do.

    And Gerald at one point wants to know what it is that Gudrun sees in Lorke:

    She doesn't answer Gerald here, but she does answer it later to us the reader in a moment of her rationalizing to herself:
    Yes, I did notice this in this chapter. Interesting observation. She knew consciously, but could not relay that to Gerald.

    Gerald is the macho man, Loerke the homosexual. Gerald the industrialist; Loerke the aesthete. Gerald the rich man; Loerke the poor man. Gerald the Englishman; Loerke the German. She has tried one and is now bored with it; it is time to try something different, another thing that may bring happiness, another promise of satisfaction. It is a new mountain to climb, having climbed and done with the previous.
    Very good asssesment and contrasts of the two characters; they are about as different as night and day. I think this is just why she gravitates towards Loerke. Given another time and he might have been repulsive to her, but now in the wake of the failed relationship between Gundrun and Gerald it is the right time for a huge change for Gundrun or so she thinks.


    Onto next post ~

    For quotes when you see : - see post #274.


    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I wanted to also wanted to discuss the climax in chapter 30, so be forewarned:
    *********************SPOILER**********************
    Virgil, Yes, this is such an important part of the book. Glad you went back to it.

    I want to start just before Gerald comes upon Gudrun and Leorke. Gudrun and Leorke are enjoying themselves on the mountain. Loerke takes out biscuits and Schnapps and the two find the moment in the snowy, silvery twilight perfect.

    "Whither," a very important Lawentian word. The moment of pleasure, escatasy has come, a potential moment at the point of transcendence. But instead of transfiguring or transcending, the emotion is whither - what next? Here we are but where do we go now? We have reached the end of this cycle of emotion, and so where is the next.
    I did not know about the word "Whither", being an important Lawrence term. I will have to note it in his stories from now on. Thanks for pointing that out.
    So this can be a point of transcendence between Loerke and Gudrun? How can 'transfiguring' and 'transcending' turn into the emotion of 'what next' or 'whither?' I think you have lost me here but maybe you can explain it better to me. If it is as you say isn't it the same with Birkin and Ursula at the end of the book - thus 'whither?' or 'where do we go from here?' When I read this passage you quoted firstly I felt it was strange that all of a sudden Gudrun was in a blissful state of happiness. I could not quite fathom that scene in the book. Help me here. I felt if she truly felt that way she was deceiving herself and hiding from her true being and emotions. Had she totally freed herself from her attachment to Gerald at this point?


    Then Gerald shows up suddenly and smacks Loerke to the ground. But Gudrun still has her pluck:

    Here we recall that scene Gudrun strikes that blow at Gerald back at the water-party scene. And as before Gerald is shocked.
    Yes, good analogy - she did repeat the blow and said prior at the Water-Party scene she would strike the last blow and so she has in this final scene between them. Again Gerald is shocked, but why do you think?

    Again we have the imagery of Gerald fragmented, openned up. The blow has reached down into his subconscious and that desire to kill comes out:
    The 'fragmented' part is excellent. You describe that so well in this last pargraph of yours ....hummmm....'subconsious' again. You sure have been using that word a lot lately...of course, how can one read L with using it? Do you still not believe in it, V?

    He is reaching his moment of satisfaction, his bliss. Strangling her will achieve his moment of satisfaction. But he doesn't complete it. I think this is very important. He has the power and ability to kill her and he doesn't go through with it. Why?
    'Why' is an interesting question. I wonder if he has just had enough at this point. For one thing there has been much death encountered personally in his life. I think he strangles her and then suddenly something vital inside him just shatters and breaks, and he lets go. He lets go of all his 'will'; thus he gives up and goes off to die alone and dejected of all life.

    I can't help but see it as a moment of transcendence over the will of his subconscious. "'I didn't want it, really'" and "'Ive had enough.'" It is as if he realizes that after he kills her, "whither?" "What next?" What would it have accomplished. Everything we have seen and read is his desire and propensity for him to kill her and he overcomes it. I can't quite call it heroic, but some measure of noblity should be given him. And then he is broken inside and goes off and accepts his death. He is tired of the cycles and his only way to stop them is to end himself.
    Opps, we think the same way, I had not read your last paragraph yet, when I wrote my last one; so we agree. Good referring again to "whither?" and "What next?". So true - what could possibly be next for him after this? He has met his only option and that is to dissolve and be done with everything. I think he kept things going at home also and he can't return there to that pointless existence. He really is left with no alternative but to seek obscurity in the snow and the finality of death. I don't know if it is heroic either when he refrains from killing Gudrun. But his death does seem noble, somehow to me, as well. Good last line, V. I think it is a matter of him simply being weary of living/struggling, at this point, the kind of living Gerald was experiencing for his entire life, a non vital type of living.

    Onto next post ~

    Refer to post #276 for Virgil's quotes from book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I have one more analytic post on Women In Love. There is an interesting passage in the last chapter "Exeunt" (chapter 31). Birkin returns to the mountains to help Gudrun after Gerald has died. He goes to investigte the the death scene:
    I also found this passage curious and very though provoking.

    Again we get this "what next" for Gerald if he had lived. Whither? And it's apparent to Birkin that there was nothing left for Gerald.
    Yes, now I can clearly see what Lawrence was getting at with this part of the story. I did think at the time that for Gerald there was no other alternative but death. If one explored other possibilites they all would eventually lead to death or obscurity. Gerald's life was spent and he was fragmented beyond repair at the point when he tried to strangle Gundrun. There could be nothing after but death. Birkin does come to this realisation which must have been totally devastating and sorrowful to Birkin who had deeply loved Gerald as a brother.

    And from Gerald he begins to contemplate the religious significance of life.
    Fascinating quote from the book. I thought it was amazing, when I first read it. It seemed like a new thought to me - one I had never contemplated before. Yes, I believe this - God does not need man. Dinasaurs left the earth and becames extinct and so could man someday - who knows? It is an interesting and curious thought, is it not? This part of the book reminds me of some passages from his "Apocalypse". I don't recall exactly which ones, but it seems to me he repeated some thoughts such as this in the A.

    I find this an interesting religious notion. God is essentially uncaring about man and his predicament in the universe. That is not original. Hardy and other late 19th century thinkers may have shared this. But here I think is where it is only Lawrence's conceptualization:
    Yes, but Hardy finally claimed to have no belief at all in God, he denied God existed; he claimed to be an atheist. Lawrence seems to believe in a God or Gods, but that God will still exist if, if man no longer exists, at least in this part of his life when he wrote WIL.

    It is up to man to put himself in contact with the divinity. This is where Birkin and Ursula in their polar star relationship will be. As you can grasp, the ideal relationship with this divinity is as a plant, basking in the glory of this fountainhead. In other works, the fountainhead tends to be the sun.
    Virgil, all of this gets a little confusing to me. What about after death -will Ursula and Birkin still be as stars and one with the universe? I thought also that plants were inert. Or did you mean to say 'planet' here? Yes, Lawrence felt the 'sun' was the fountainhead of life....something like that. Many ancient civilizations worshiped the sun and this seemed to appeal to Lawrence's ideals. Does the sun work into the scheme of the Phoenix as well -the burning down, to rise from the ashes and live again? I am thinking - sun/fire.

    One last thing. Now that I have studied Women In Love in real detail, perhaps it is as great or greater than Lawrence's The Rainbow. I encourage everyone to read The Rainbow and let me know which is the greater work. I now have a hard time deciding. This was a real pleasure.
    Well, I read both books and I feel "Women in Love" is the most complete and the best novel of the two, but I should definitely go back and re-read "To the Rainbow". I am sure now, with this additional knowledge I have acquired from our great discussions, I will be able to see much deeper into the novel's meanings and symbolism. I will definitely appreciate it better after a second reading. I too would highly recommend WIL to all and encourage them to try it.

    I have some more commentary from two source books to post. I will do that in my leisure and let you all know when I do so. I think it will enhance our total understanding of the novel. What a great discussion this has been thanks to everyone!
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  7. #277
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Janine, I'll respond to all your questions. But it may take a while. I'll be going away at the end of the week and I'm not sure I'll get to any of t until I come back. Thanks for your reply.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  8. #278
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Janine, I'll respond to all your questions. But it may take a while. I'll be going away at the end of the week and I'm not sure I'll get to any of t until I come back. Thanks for your reply.
    Virgil, don't worry your brilliant little brain about Lit Net posts. Go and have fun! That's fine. Actually, I am glad of it. I am burned out by now and need a rest.
    Also, I want to post some more of the introduction - some food for thought. I came across some commentary in another book called "D.H.Lawrence Literary Critiques" I have out from my library. It is an older book, but it has some good commentary on "The Rainbow" and "Women in Love". I will probably photocopy the Rainbow part and scan the WIL part. Takes so long to scan though. I wish I could come across these books online - I would buy them gladly. I have been looking. I really want one called "Sons and Lovers" A Casebook edited by Gamini Salgado. It is a good book with all kinds of references in it from letters to critics commentary (in L's time) to his own comments/observations on the book.

    Here is a cool site I found last night when I was researching L online:

    http://travel.nytimes.com/2006/10/22...ure.html?fta=y

    Enjoy! J

    You know my signature photo? Well, this is the actual tree the picture was fashioned after, which Lawrence sat under to do his writing in New Mexico. It is a tall stately pine tree. Wonderful, isn't it?



    PS. Virgil - I read your poem you wrote in the contest site and liked it very much. Sorry I forgot to mention it, and now my mailbox is nearly full again. Good job and hope you win!
    Last edited by Janine; 07-18-2007 at 12:42 AM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  9. #279
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Hi everyone! I am now posting some more of the commentary by Worthen from my book Introduction:

    In three crucial chapters at the heart of the book, the characters begin to choose which way they will go. Though there is space only to touch on these in reductive outline, here is where difficulty and disturbance concentrate, and an outline may serve as sounding board rather than imprisoning interpretation.

    In chapter XVIII, 'Rabbit', Gudrun and young Winifred Crich set out to sketch the 'Looliness' of Looloo the Pekinese; and Winifred produces a wicked little diagram or caricature, which nevertheless is very 'like'. She's an apt pupil for Gudrun, who likes to pin things down, to grasp them once and for all: Gerald as wolf (14:40), birds as little Lloyd Georges (264:3). She sculpts figures of birds and animals one can hold in one's hand. Art for her is a means of knowing as possession, exerting a kind of power over the object - which is why the drawing may do Looloo 'some subtle injury' (236:6). But it is one thing to sketch Looloo, and quite another to haul the great buck rabbit Bismarck out of his cage by the ears, in order to do the same. For he has power of his own, and reacts against the attempts to 'grasp' him by instantaneous violence, tempestuous, almost uncontrollable. This in turn brings welling up in Gudrun; 'fury', a 'heavy cruelty', as her wrists are scored and she battles to control the 'bestial stupidity' (240:30-32). To hear her high voice 'like the crying of a seagull, strange and vindictive' (241:2) is to be reminded again of the scene with the horse at the railway crossing, especially when Gerald' takes over the struggle (110:9-II2:40). But the response of violence to rebellion is height¬ened this time as the man's hand comes down on the rabbit's neck like a hawk, and the animal screams in the fear of death - until, with a final writhe and tearing, it is mastered. Having taken in the scene with the mare, and the scene with the highland cattle which re¬orchestrated it, perhaps we are prepared for the struggle between man and animal to suggest something about the human 'war', the battle between the sexes. (So far, moreover, the action has been predominantly realistic, starting in comedy, surprised into violence.) But now, from behind the realism, once more, the new art begins to open up a dimension undiscovered in earlier fiction, for 'the scream of the rabbit ... seemed to have torn the veil of her consciousness' (241:20-21), and what lies behind the veil in Gudrun and Gerald is revealed to them both presently, beyond disguise.

    The language shows the strain of having to put into words something which by definition is almost beyond articulation, and which may therefore seem far-fetched or even absurd - at first. Gudrun looks at him with eyes 'strained with underworld knowledge' (nearly a contradiction in terms, but not for Lawrence), '... like those of a creature which is at his mercy' (an expression caught in the eyes of rabbit and woman alike), 'yet which is his ultimate victor' (241:40-242:1) – unless he could treat her as he has treated Bismarck. He feels 'the mutual hellish recognition' (242:2) as 'she seemed like a soft recipient of his magical, hideous white fire' (242:4-5), of cruelty. 'There was a league between them, abhorrent to them both. They were implicated with each other in abhorrent mysteries' Then follows perhaps the most absurb-sounding sentence Lawrence had ever had ever written. ‘The long, shallow red rip seemed torn across his brains, tearing the surface of his ultimate consciousness, letting through the forever unconscious, unthinkable red ether of the beyond, the obscene beyond’ (242:37-7). But suppose one tried to puzzle this out? Is it that, as Gerald stares into the redness of that gash opened up by violence, he can momentarily sense his way through the bloody medium into this own psyche as well as hers? – and be enveloped and overcome by what comes out of the blood, the fascinating excitement of violence, or exerting power over a living creature sadistically, or masochistically? The Rainbow made it clear that sex is always, for Lawrence, a going through, beyond one’s ordinary self and old consciousness, into a new mode of being. But here the mode is ‘hellish’ and ‘obscene’ because because its ‘either’ – the medium in the space beyond the normal atmostphere, now within rather than above – is the pleasure in violence, whose final frisson is death. Bismarck, then, gets rid of distress and frustration by tearing round and round in meteoric frenzy, seeming mad but actually quite natural. (Yet that word poses disturbing questions in this context. What is ‘natural’? Is violence, war, ‘natural’, or ‘denaturing’?) But as the lovers exchange suggestive hints of the possibilities their subconscious has suggested, they show a readiness to offer and accept rabbit-sexuality and animal violence that may, even now (for conscious human beings), be ‘shocking’ in its ‘nonchalance’(243:33-4). However, the final sentence of the chapter (243:33-4) is a sudden reminder of the path that has been forsaken since ‘Water-Party’. For Bismarck is not the power-wielder and warmonger of his name. In truth he is a mystery, a wonder (like Gerald in the canoe), when seen with reverence for the ‘other’ rather than with the impulse to impose ones’s will and dominate – whether by Winfred’s fantasy and mothering, or in Gerald and Gundrun’s power struggle, to the death if it should come to that.

    There is violence and deathliness in Birkin and Ursula, too. Yet the crucial discovery of chapter XIX, 'Moony', is that there is a kind of violence that can heal, as well as a violence that destroys. The changeability of this pair has -been evident since 'Water-Party'. Birkin has been ill, withdrawn. Ursula has again reacted in repulsion at what she sees as his deathliness, and, moreover, with a kind of pure hatred for his very being, oppressive to her ego. As she wanders through the dark trees, she is in a mood of almost annihilating repudiation - hating the brilliant moonlight which makes everything definite and visible to consciousness, drawn to the darkness in which we can lose oneself. Yet here by the pond is Birkin, a shadow, muttering ludicrously, so that she wants to laugh. The flower-husks he drops in the water are reminders of the flowers they scattered on the pond in chapter XI, 'An Island", when they first admitted their love, now gone dead and dry, Birkin thinks that all relations with women are an antiphony of lies. Indeed, the moon suggests to him a horrible female power, like the Syrian goddess of violent sexuality. So it seems in hatred of Woman that he begins to stone the moon's reflection. But, when it is over, he will ask '"Was it hate?"' However much is may be (both in Birkin and the watching Ursula) a wroking off of anger, dislike, frustration, it seems also more, and deeper than that. What happens to dark water and white moon -- as well as in people?

    The impact of the first stone makes the moon's reflection look like a writhing cuttlefish, and with a second stone the moon explodes. Waves of darkness run into the centre, but after the near-destruction the moon re-forms. Again, with stones close together, Birkin's explosions momentarily obliterate the moon, but again it re-forms. Then he throws stone, after stone, after stone. And here what seems important is to submit imaginatively to the experience in the language and the rhythm, let it happen within: 'And he was not satisfied ... whole and composed, at peace' (247:35-248:22). It is an experience of extraordinary violence, yet after and through it comes a strange peace, and tenderness, in which words of simple truth can be spoken. Neurosis, hatred, deathliness have vanished (though they may come back). Moreover, after the apparently destructive violence the moon looks different. It no longers seems hard, triumphant, a thing of power. It has become a rose, 'constellated' in the dark water - reminding one of Ursula's rose (not afleur du mal) against Birkin's dark river of dissolution, and of how the rosy lantern balanced and harmonized with the dark one and its writhing sea-creature, and of the symbolism of the rose in many languages. What has happened in the pool and in the subconscious of the lovers seems to be a mode of 'love' in which the relationship can grow through conflict, the clash of personalities, even violence, to harmony and peace. In The Rainbow sex had been seen as a kind of death and rebirth, a loss of consciousness and experience of oblivion at the hands of the 'other' (like the result of the first stonings here), but opening up a new life beyond. But then, as Lawrence rewrote his 'philosophy' in 'The Crown', he had seen that there were times when violence and destruction have to go far indeed before new creation can begin. The subconscious may have to be deeply agitated, neurotic consciousness broken apart or indeed almost completely disintegrated, before the new harmony can come about and the whole self become calm and composed. Yet come about it experientially does - because (this seems important) neither of the opposed forces can overcome the other. Out of the writhing polyp, the crashing noise, the broken water, the splintered light, the shattering violence, come healing, peace and tenderness. '''There is a golden light in you, which I wish you would give me''', says Birkin (249:15), something more than merely personal.

    Yet as soon as they begin consciously to speak, misunderstanding flares and conflict begins again. Ursula thinks Birkin is demanding male supremacy, that she should submit and serve, and he is unclear about what he wants. He is also infuriated by the 'Magna Mater' (the Great Female and Mother) in her, and her assertive will and self-insistence (against his). Nevertheless, what they reached for a moment was real, and will come again when the words and the self¬willed 'old stable egos' give way. Afterwards, Rirkin is able to clarify to himself the. different ways that modern men and women can go. In Halliday's African statuette there seemed to be embodied a mode of being which - no longer fusing body, mind and spirit - has given itself over entirely to experiencing and knowing through the senses. This is in the mode of dissolution because it is a falling apart of unified being, reducing back to one element, though Birkin admires its civilization, which has gone much further down the road than his own. (Dissolution may be necessary before new integration can begin.) There is also an opposite 'Arctic' way of disintegration and reduction, when life is wholly dominated by mind and will, the 'white' life we have seen in Gerald.to But now the Birkin who preached about the 'River of Dissolution' has been brought by Ursula and the experience of the pond to glimpse a third way, which he calls 'paradisal', over-optimistically. Yet he has glimpsed a vio¬lence and disintegration which can heal, a conflict after which the 'opposites' can each be themselves again, perhaps indeed more so, but 'constellated' together in new peace and beauty of relation. He goes off impulsively to ask Ursula to marry him - which turns out to be grimly funny, because he doesn't yet understand what he has glimpsed, and because Ursula has changed again, so that another row results. Yet he has found a way ahead.
    That is all for now until I scan the remainder. You may have noticed W speaks of 3 key chapters and only two are mentioned here; this is where I left off scanning and will resume soon. I think these passages, and pointing out these three chapters, will give you much to think about and clarify some parts and ideas we discussed throughout the postings. Keep in mind that the next part I post disgusses the 'third chapter' Worthen is referring to so...this is to be continuted.
    Last edited by Janine; 07-21-2007 at 03:48 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  10. #280
    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janine View Post
    Papayahed, is this that part you are referring to in Chapter VI?

    Ok, for the last hour or so I have been searching through the text and postings for references to the figurines and I come up with some discussions starting at post #117, about Lawrence's 'blood philosophy' which is first layed out and explained by Virgil. If you continue on through post #120, and maybe even a little further on you will see the discussion about the African figures and how they relate to this philosophy or idea. I hope this helps some. You might have to skip over some unnecessary parts of the postings.
    Oh good heavens! Thanks for taking the time to look.
    Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda


  11. #281
    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    I've just finished the book and my first thought is that it is very much a soap opera.

    I haven't read all of the posts so forgive me if I bring up something that has already been discussed.

    Geralds reaction to those statues, perhaps that is his reaction to Gudrun's world. She's the artist, he's the logical businessman maybe a forshadowing of their inability to stay together.

    Somebody mentioned that Loerke was a homosexual, how do we know this? Did I miss that part? I got the impression that he was hetero from that parts that described his inability to approach let alone speak to Gudrun.

    Again we get this "what next" for Gerald if he had lived. Whither? And it's apparent to Birkin that there was nothing left for Gerald.
    This screams Soap Opera, why isn't there anything left for Gerald???
    Last edited by papayahed; 07-22-2007 at 12:21 PM.
    Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda


  12. #282
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Just read those pages you scanned Janine for the second time. Thanks for sharing
    Through the darkness of future past
    the magician longs to see
    one chance out between two worlds
    'Fire walk with me.'


    Twin Peaks

  13. #283
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Hi Manolia, Glad you read it again and got something of value out of it. This same author - Worthen - wrote the current L biography I am reading - it is only the first half called "The Early Years"; very detailed; I also own the second half called "Life of an Outsider". Shall I scan more of the Introduction for you? I think there may be about 8 pages left, on here it won't appear to be that long...just in the paperback edition. I will check my book and see where I left off. I am reading a "Casebook" now on "The Rainbow"and "Women in Love". It is quite interesting; renewed it at my library tonight, but I have ordered it online used. It is something I would like to add to my collection. I read another one as well, also ordered that one but I scanned much of it - "The Sons and Lovers Casebook"; the scans will come in real handy, later on, when we read and discuss the S&L's on here this fall. How many books did I say I owned on L? Well add a few new finds to the list. Probably up to about 25 now.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

  14. #284
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    Women In Love

    Women In Love is my personal favorite of Lawrence's books. I feel that it is his most complete representation of his views on life, individuality, and marriage. The true joy in the novel comes from comparing the relationship of Birkin and Ursula with that of Gerald and Gudrun. As a result, one can see that true marriage must result from free passion and a divorce from the dehumanizing industrialization. Rupert and Ursula were able to create an entirely new world within themselves. This is contrasted with the relationshp of Gerald and Gudrun. Gerald could not break from industrialization and was left wanting more from work. Gudrun was left wanting actual passion and resorted to affairs. Rupert and Ursula found contenment, while Gerald and Gudrun's relationship ended when Gerald died.

  15. #285
    Our wee Olympic swimmer Janine's Avatar
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    Hi mcvv09, I see you are new to the forum, so let me welcome you! I am so glad you stopped by this thread to comment. I too find this to be my favorite Lawrence novel. I feel it is Lawrence most complete and perfect work - really his masterpiece. We have been discussing the book in extensive detail (mostly two month's ago, as our monthly book read) and have written 19 pages of posts, quite ambitious for one month's time! I hope you find the time to read some of the entries, if not all. I think you will gather much in the way of new ideas and information from doing so. The novel is a complex one, as all of Lawrence's writings are.

    We currently have active threads on Lawrence - one on his short stories and one on his Tortoise poems, the second will resume next month, if anyone else in addition to myself is interested.

    I am an avid fan of Lawrence and have read 3 full biographies on the man and have real nearly all his novels. I am currently reading a later, more obscure novel "The Plumed Serpent".

    Several of the participants in the short story thread will be reading "Sons and Lover's" sometime this fall and discussing it. During Christmas vacation we are planning to read "Lady Chatterly's Lover" - same group.

    I hope you can join in with some, or all, of these threads that are in progress or will be starting up soon. If you have not read Lawrence's short stories you are in for an interesting experience - discussions have been quite enthralling and I hope you can join in our group.

    Have a great weekend and glad I caught your post.
    Last edited by Janine; 08-24-2007 at 10:12 PM.
    "It's so mysterious, the land of tears."

    Chapter 7, The Little Prince ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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