Zen

[Dark Star]

I should note that really depends on the Buddhist sect in regards to how his name is revered. I've met many Buddhists who emphasize his statement that he was just a man and not a god and that we should thus keep our focus on his teachings and what makes sense to us rather than letting it turn into worship and an unquestioning sense of every teaching being true.

[weepingforloman]

Yes, that is the mainstream. But the Gautama-worshipers do exist.

[NikolaiI]

I do not know what the mainstream is, but the Buddha certainly did warn against believing things for whatever reason other than analysis and observation, not out of respect for the teacher, not simply because it has been told us, not because it is spoken and rumored by a majority, etc. I don't think worshipping the Buddha is necessarily the same as believing everything he says is true. One idea about teachings is not to worship them, scriptures, the same way you would not take a finger pointing to the moon to be the moon, you would not get what you wanted then. But in the case of the Buddha, not his teachings, we assume he is enlightened, and equivalent to what he is trying to help us to reach - nirvana. But that's just how I look at it, and yes, I am a Gautama-worshipper.

[Dark Star]

Yes, that is the mainstream. But the Gautama-worshipers do exist.

Even the sects that deify Guatama don't tend to worship him.

Since the sects that do involve worship of Guatama tend to be fringe sects based off of Mahayana Buddhism I find them to be more cults than anything since they go directly against the teachings of Buddhism in the process.

Think of them as the Buddhist version of Christians who say that we should go on a worldwide crusade and convert every non-Christian by the sword...

[Orionsbelt]

Worship is a form of attachment and therefore it hinders the path to enlightenment. While a Buddhist would recognize worship and even respect the practice, it is something that would eventually have to stop in order to attain enlightenment. The Tibetan book of the dead speaks of levels. At one level the passing light is on the path to re-birth but the form is in question. The task is to focus on the deity of your choice. Interesting thing, I just read a summary of Spinoza. He felt that God was all things and all things are God. Wonder how this lines up with eastern thought...

[weepingforloman]

Even the sects that deify Guatama don't tend to worship him.

Since the sects that do involve worship of Guatama tend to be fringe sects based off of Mahayana Buddhism I find them to be more cults than anything since they go directly against the teachings of Buddhism in the process.

Think of them as the Buddhist version of Christians who say that we should go on a worldwide crusade and convert every non-Christian by the sword...

Exactly. Please do me and my fellows the honor of not assuming the abortion clinic bombers represent the mainline.

[Dark Star]

Well, I live in the Bible Belt, so sadly it's pretty damn close to the 'mainline' here...

Seriously, though, I don't Anne Coulter or Pat Robertson is your average Christian. No worries.

[quasimodo1]

For a non-traditional believer like myself, i.e. atheist with strong spiritual leanings, Zen, re-incarnation and the desire for enlightenment without the onus of a deity to prevent it...well...it is more than a breath of fresh philosophical air; it is a giant warm front. quasimodo1

[weepingforloman]

Why do atheists continually imagine God as some terrible, harsh tyrant? God is loving... He allowed Himself to die at our hands, while providing the means for us to be saved. He stepped out of Heaven, into this mess we call earth, and became one of us... subject to the same needs, frailty, and even temptations all of us are subject to. God is awesome: both powerful and beautiful.

[NikolaiI]

Atheists view god as not real. I don't think any judgement call is required to be an atheist.

I live in the bible belt, too...

[Dark Star]

Why do atheists continually imagine God as some terrible, harsh tyrant?

Two words: Old Testament

For a New Testament reference: Hell

If you'd like me to expound on either I can.

[weepingforloman]

Ahem: it was loving that God did not merely unmake us after the Fall. It was loving that God established His covenant with Abraham. It was loving that God cared for Abel. It was loving that God saved Noah and his family from the flood. It was loving that God delivered the Israelites from Egypt. It was loving that God promised them a home, when they were homeless. It was loving when God commanded that the Israelites love one another, and that they give to the poor, and that they let the poor and the widows take a tithe of their fields. The OT even has animal-safety laws.

As for the justice of Hell, that is for another time.

[NikolaiI]

Ah, this thread is supposed to be about zen, if you please. And by the way, here is a well written article on buddhist ontology, if anyone is interested..http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/inada4.htm

I would just like to comment that the only real difference between this particular aspect of Buddhism and Christ's discourse on loving one's neighbor is the separateness of souls. Buddhism wipes away the difference (I'm not sure, but I believe some Buddhist groups still use the term Brahman for the Universal Soul), and Christianity emphasizes it, making the sacrifice of one's own interests the primary point of morality. I just thought I'd point out how similar they are, on this point at least.

Yes...Buddhists don't think any of us are seperate from any other. So the Christian doctrine is to love your neighbour, but this can be hard if you see your neighbour as someone differenent from yourself, and it introduces complications that aren't necessary, that are in fact a distortion of reality and leave us feeling disoriented. You may like or dislike your neighbour, and you may treat him with respect out of duty, but if you're not thinking about your neighbour as being seperate from yourself then you would help them as automatically as you would yourself. And one part of it is realizing this theoretically, and the other part is the practice of zazen to help realize it fully, etc. I mostly get this view and idea from my limited recent exposure to dharma and dharma talks on youtube, though I read a couple books on Buddhism a few years ago, was really into it then, and then read a great book on zen, but it's always good to keep in touch and ideas fresh, and practice, etc...

[Derringer]

Why do atheists continually imagine God as some terrible, harsh tyrant? God is loving... He allowed Himself to die at our hands, while providing the means for us to be saved. He stepped out of Heaven, into this mess we call earth, and became one of us... subject to the same needs, frailty, and even temptations all of us are subject to. God is awesome: both powerful and beautiful.

Your supposed to fear God- it's written in the Bible.

[Logos]

Someone asked, "What am I?" Guangfan answered, "There is nothing in the whole universe that is not you."

In a spirit of learning and discovery, I'd like to start a thread about Zen, specifically the teachings of compassion in it.

....

I know Zen is a form of Buddhism. I've only read one book about it, Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, and I guess also one essay by Alan Watts. Any ideas for me about Zen texts, precepts, further reading, etc? Thx.

Ah, this thread is supposed to be about zen, if you please.

Yes, I wish it would get back on topic too