No I haven't seen it. I have only watched the horrible English version with Ralph Fiennes and Liv Tyler.
No I haven't seen it. I have only watched the horrible English version with Ralph Fiennes and Liv Tyler.
That version was indeed horrible---it was more like Gothic horror, than a Russian romantic/lyrical work.Originally Posted by Boris239
No I haven't seen it. I have only watched the horrible English version with Ralph Fiennes and Liv Tyler.And turning Tatyana's husband into a young, handsome man robbed her refusal of Yevgeny of any meaning---after all, why should she pine after Yevgeniy when she has a gorgeous husband at home ?
But then, in the West, they probably wouldn't understand the Russian values of sacrificing love for faithfulness.
Last edited by olichka; 02-01-2007 at 03:39 PM.
No, it's a beauty of Russian verse and Croatian language! Olichka, I haven't been her for a while, but your enthusiasm asked for my attention!
At thunder and tempest, At the world's coldheartedness,
During times of heavy loss And when you're sad
The greatest art on earth Is to seem uncomplicatedly gay.
To get things clear, they have to firstly be very unclear. But if you get them too quickly, you probably got them wrong.
If you need me urgent, send me a PM
It happens to be in the West , as you call it. And maybe here in West we cant understand of sacrificing or of love. I guess that love and generally human feelings are international and nobody ( no nation ) can claim of them.
It also happens that i have seen the "horrible" movie you mentioned. Why is so horrible? I would like if it is possible to tell me exact arguements and not general ideas about the Russian soul. I admire and i respect very much all Russians and all souls , i just want logical positions.
Is there a Russian movie with Russian actors and crew that filmed ever this poem?
It was horrible because it lacked the ambience of the Pushkin`s poem --- the pain, the sweetness and the lyricism. It was almost Gothic in character --- dark, moody and eerie, and the choice of Ralph Fiennes certainly contributed to the eeriness. ( Pushkin`s Eugene is moody, but not in an eerie, creepy way --- Fiennes almost reminded me of Dracula here ! )
It certainly lacked Russian warmth and liveliness --- I found it too cold, staid and plodding.
In the poem, Tatyana and Olga are supposed to be as different as night and day. In this movie, they are virtually indistinguishable both in appearance and personality !
Tatyana`s husband was too handsome, and she was shown as enjoying his company, whereas in the poem she clearly doesn`t love him which robs her refusal of Onegin of any morality or sacrifice --- after all, where`s the sacrifice, if she loves her husband ?
Actually, by being faithful to a husband she doesn`t love, Tatyana is demonstrating the traits of a Russian woman of the people ( not an aristocratic Russian woman ). Surely such qualities are rarely exhibited in the modern West ( i.e. the USA ) --- with all these affairs going on, I doubt that any modern Western woman would stay faithful to a husband she doesn`t love !
Last edited by olichka; 06-26-2007 at 02:50 PM.
Not to mention that the whole point is that it is a poem. Poems are about the beauty of the language, and the art of verse and imagery. The movie essentially was a dry story with no real color that wreaked of bad acting and lack of plot. The whole purpose of the story was to show the contrast of the 4 very different characters. Lensky wasn't very convincing, I like the way Tchaikovsky portrayed him much better. Onegin really didn't make you feel any sort of sympathy, and just came off as a moody, depressing, obnoxious person. The whole ending seemed a bit of a robbery since the role of Onegin didn't fit. Olga is a much flatter character in the movie, and makes me want to throw something. Tanya was terribly cast, and lacked the sense of the character. The director made her out to be a depressing gloomy woman who resembles something more like the woman from sleepy hollow.
For a Russian version that works, you should look into Tchaikovsky's Eugene Onegin, a Russian Opera. That version, although slightly altering the plot (giving more depth to Tanya's husband, and making Lensky a lot more sympathetic) really captured Pushkin's messages, and portrayed them beautifully, taking away the Poetry and adding music. That is perhaps the closest thing I have seen to an accurate visual representation of the poem.
First of all, we cant compare things that they are totally different : a poem to a film or a film to an opera!! There are totally different things! All of them are art but every kind of art has its own ways to demonstrate some things.
When you are reforming a literatute piece to a film you cant have all the deepness that the novel, poem has. A novel can be 600 pages and a film lasts for 2 hours for example. War and piece is a 1.500 pages novel for example. How you can put all these in a film? For sure you will left some things out.
Another question: why there isnt a Russian ( or any other nationality ) film about Onegin? All people in all nations have favorite poets and novelists. And all of us are very pleased to introduce them to all the other nations. Why Russians didnt introduce us to Onegin? They had to wait for a British guy to make him know to the rest of the planet? Then , they have to thank him! Being a British and taking the courage to shoot a film about the Russian soul is a brave thing after all.
In the movie, Tatyana and Olga are totally different: Olga is the woman who wants to be loved romantically by anyone, Tatyana is in love with a particular pesron. Totally different things. Very obvious through the movie, even if you haent read the poem.
The plot is even more dramatic when Tataynas husband isnt the old , ugly beast she had to marry! Tatayna is a better heroine when she is choosing between two young men! She is choosing her husband who is young and nice. It would have been more easy for her to chose Onegin if her husband was the old and ugly guy. The Russian soul( and every geniune soul) is more satisfied this way.
I am not from USA , it happens to be Greek ( i dont think that it matters in our conversation) but generally i dont like generalitasions : she is American , she cant understand the Greek soul!! for example. And i cant believe that all Russian/ American/ English whatever women can love more than any other woman. Here we are talking about things that are same to all people: love, hate, misery etc. LITERATURE is international.
I disagree, I would think the Russians didn't make a crappy movie because they realized it would be a crappy movie. The Poem is designed as a Poem, and the story, I feel wouldn't and doesn't translate well into a movie. Verse has a completely different feel than prose, and thus creates a more difficult time for any screen play writer.
That is why I commented that the opera worked better, simply because poems translate better into operas.
We used to have months ago a discussion in this forum about the difference of the movies and the books ( indifferent the kind of them: literature, poetry, biographies etc) The general conclusion of this discussion was that - good or not- it is a fact that the cinema has a greater appeal to the people than the books. Unfortunately less people read than watch. So, from this point of view and if you think logic, poor Fiennes made wellknown to a much bigger audience a classical piece. This is something in my opinion.
And anyway, we use to say that sometimes the try is better than the good realisation.
QUOTE=JBI;401214]I disagree, I would think the Russians didn't make a crappy movie because they realized it would be a crappy movie. The Poem is designed as a Poem, and the story, I feel wouldn't and doesn't translate well into a movie. Verse has a completely different feel than prose, and thus creates a more difficult time for any screen play writer.
That is why I commented that the opera worked better, simply because poems translate better into operas.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the Russians did make a movie---it was made in the fifties, and it was a film-opera,using actors to portray the characters and opera singers to do the singing---obviously, singing was dubbed. Tatyana was sung by Galina Vishnevskaya ! It's a wonderful movie --- the actors were young enough and looked the part, while allowing for the beautiful singing.
Personally, I have to disagree that it's impossible to translate one medium into another : if the right cinematic techniques and the right music is used, the movie can convey effectively the atmosphere of the literary work, even a poem, although I do agree that an opera does translate a poem more effectively.
If the right lighting, music, etc. were used in the Ralph Fiennes movie, it could have come off.
Olga may have wanted to be loved by anyone, as opposed to Tatyana, but the thing is, she was not lively and frivolous as she was supposed to be in the poem. Also, in the poem, she doesn't just want to be loved romantically, she's actually quite a sexy being, almost a siren. I didn't feel that it came off in the movie !
I don't understand the argument that Tatyana is a better heroine because she's choosing a young man and that it would have been easier for her to choose Onegin if her husband were old and ugly! That's the whole point Pushkin is making ! Even though Tatyana's husband is older and not as handsome as Onegin ( as described in the poem ) , she's still choosing him because of her sense of duty, loyalty and honour ! ( in the poem Tatyana says these words :But I'm given to another, and I will be faithful to him to the end ! ) In this respect she is demonstrating the traits of a true Russian woman : to stay faithful to her husband, even if she doesn't love him. These are actual traditional traits of Russian women : self-sacrifice and submissiveness to fate, and by making the plot go this way, Pushkin is actually satisfying the Russian soul !
The Russian traditional character is about self-sacrifice, not about indulgence and fun !
There is a poem by another Russian poet Nekrassov called " The Russian women " . In it, aristocratic women are following their revolutionary husbands into exile in Siberia, thereby giving up their aristocratic privileges and wealth. One of the women is a young woman who is following a much older husband whom she doesn't love. Like Tatyana---and the title " The Russian women " is very telling !
Last edited by olichka; 07-01-2007 at 12:34 AM.
I am very fond of Russian literature and generally of Russia. But i cant understand exactly the phrase "Russian soul" and "Russian woman". I mean that every person , every woman , every soul can love, can make sucrificions for love. Not only Russians but all people generally. Love is a gift of God given to everyone.
I am not aware of the Russian movie you are talking, hope we will be able to see it once!
Evi, it's an acknowledged fact that every nation has a national character. The Russian character has traditionally been associated with traits of endurance, loyalty and self-sacrifice. Must be all those wars they've been through, as well as the climate---the long winters, particularly in Siberia. You must agree that such conditions build tough characters !
The Russian women have traditionally been seen as having those traits. In Russian literature there are many portrayals of women displaying traits of faithfulness, steadfastness and self --sacrifice, particularly with regard to their husbands and families.
This is not to say that people from other cultures don't have them, it's just that it seems to occur more frequently and to a more intense degree among the Russians, for reasons I've already given.
So no offence, please !
Last edited by olichka; 07-01-2007 at 11:51 PM.
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