June / Lawrence Reading: 'Women in Love'

[grace86]

I fully agree, and also that she seems to be living up to her names reference and image. Gudrun feels dangerous to me at this point and agressive. Gerald mades a remark that she struck the first blow and he will strike the last - I did not look up the quote, but didn't it go something like that? I think the blow was a sort of signal and 'prophetic' of the challenge, between them, that will most definitely ensue.

Gerald didn't say that he would strike the last, in fact Gudrun said she would also strike the last blow. He keeps this from Birkin in Man to Man. It will be interesting to see how that falls into place.

Janine I do see how Birkin's ideas are layed out after he presents them for the others to go through or criticize. Lawrence makes it kind of like an infection. I think Rupert brings up the idea of the end of humanity...and more after death, and then Ursula and Gerald contemplate that later on in a sort of way.

[manolia]

To be honest, that is the reason I have always been so-so on this novel, that is Birkin's likability. I can't see why anyone really would like him, but the other ladies here disagree. So it just may be my perception.

To tell you the truth Virgil, i prefer Gerald now. This happened after the chapter where his fathers's illness was being described..hehehe i know what you might thing..women change their minds easilly
I still like Birkin though.

I don't know if it truly is a different text, I read but some texts say the full-length uncut version - sort of like in films - you know - like Directors Cut.

manolia, yes, definitely we will do LCL - next year would be great! I love the idea!

Ok that's settled.

I read this part also, and thought of posting along with my comments, but you know I was too tired to look up the chapter and the quote. Wasn't she at the mill at the time? She had been having tea with Ursula at Birkin's abode and she got domestic feelings and sort of envied her sister. She explored in her mind the possibility of marriage to Gerald, right? Wow, now that I am near the end of the book, that seems like eons ago.

I think you are right in what you say. There are more referances to Gudrun's jealousy in the ch "Continental".

Since you came to the chapter where they are spending the holiday at the hostile in the mountains, don't you see a more relaxed atmostphere - the people are much freer and expressive, as compared to the stiff proper society of England. One section they even discuss England and how different it is. The dance seems to be significant to me, in showing how unreserved, unihibited the Europeans are.

Yes i noticed the relaxed and unreserved atmosphere . That was a very nice part, with the description of the dances and merriment.

[Virgil]

To tell you the truth Virgil, i prefer Gerald now. This happened after the chapter where his fathers's illness was being described..hehehe i know what you might thing..women change their minds easilly
I still like Birkin though.

No, no I wouldn't say that. You're reading it for the first time. I have changed my mind throughout the course of many novels. By the way Manolia, I like your new avatar. Pretty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I don't know if it truly is a different text, I read but some texts say the full-length uncut version - sort of like in films - you know - like Directors Cut.

Ok that's settled.

OK, count me in too. As to the different versions, it is rather complicated. First there was a final version of the novel. But Lawrence had that privately published and then if I'm remembering it correctly it got edited for sexual content in public editions. This was called I think the "expurgated edition." But some time later (1960's?) the contents that were taken out were put back in for the original full edition. Now what complicates it further was that Lawrence had two previous full drafts before the final published edition, and these drafts have survived. The earlier drafts were actually substantially different than his final draft, and so scholars have actually published them, or at least the second draft which was more mature than the first. That second draft is called "John Thomas and Lady Jane" which I think was the working title of Lady Chatterly's Lover. I bet john Thomas and Lady Jane" can be found on amazon. I have never read the earlier drafts, but i have seen quotes from them. I hope that helps.

[Schokokeks]

Oh boy, I've been away from here for a few busy days, and seeing that you've all added a lot more to the discussion I'm very sorry that I couldn't join in on your points.
But the good news is: I've completed Women in Love , though at the expense of lacking the time to post here.

*** Spoiler (tells ending) ***

I liked it better and better towards the ending (maybe that was partly due to the increasing number of references to German and Germany during the party's stay in the snow ). I first thought it should have been Birkin, being the one with the most excentric ideas, to die in the end, or at least it should have been him to whom something extraordinary should have happened. But now that it was Gerald, I'm quite satisfied with it as well, since his being on his way to madness on the last few pages was much more interesting to follow.

*** End spoiler ***

Let me address some of your concerns Schoky (...)Like most great modern novels of the early 20th century, this is not a novel that is heavily plot driven. The significant idea/theory which the early moderns were infatuated with was psychology and (...)

Thank you very much, Virgil, that was succinct. Now that I've given my thoughts on postmodernism in the Owen Meany thread, it seems only right that you should explain modernism here .
This has been a very interesting read, although I still couldn't get used to the forcefulness of the dialogues. I shall remember Lawrence as a fascinating writer, and am looking forward to reading Sons and Lovers one day.
In fact, I think I shall try another modernist novel by another author soon, and will thus vote for To the Lighthouse in the summer reading thread .

Thank you as well, manolia and Virgil, for your kind offers of help with my uni work ! I shall surely come back to it if desperate need arises .

I think I'll continue to read your ongoing discussions here and add my two cents if I can find a free minute not occupied by translations and essays and the like...

[Janine]

Gerald didn't say that he would strike the last, in fact Gudrun said she would also strike the last blow. He keeps this from Birkin in Man to Man. It will be interesting to see how that falls into place.

Grace,Yes, you are perfectly correct. I just read the passages over. Gudrun indeed said she would strike the last. That passage is very significant. Did Gerald later hold back from telling Birkin of the blow, when they were talking in the chapter "Man to Man". He was merely thinking about the incident, correct? This statement is very prophetic.

Janine I do see how Birkin's ideas are layed out after he presents them for the others to go through or criticize. Lawrence makes it kind of like an infection. I think Rupert brings up the idea of the end of humanity...and more after death, and then Ursula and Gerald contemplate that later on in a sort of way.

Grace, do you mean an reflection'? 'Infection' does not seem to fit this statement. Yes, and it is also contemplated in other parts of the book. As Ursula and Birkin fall deeper into love, it seems Birkin becomes quieter, more seclusive. Perhaps this is part relects his ideas that he and Ursula need only themselves, and perhaps a few others. Also I do believe that Birkin's behavior is somewhat modified by his consumation of love with Ursula. I do see the second half of the novel with much consideration or criticism of what Rupert previously said or preached.

To tell you the truth Virgil, i prefer Gerald now. This happened after the chapter where his fathers's illness was being described..hehehe i know what you might thing..women change their minds easilly
I still like Birkin though.

manolia, I actually feel more sympathy for Gerald as time goes by in the novel. I don't know if I like Gerald better than Birkin, nor if it truly relevant to me to like either of them. I simply see all the characters as they are, which feels very realistic. I feel deeply involved with all four characters. By the end....hehehe...manolia...you may change your mind again - "Changing ones mind is a woman's perogative" - so the saying goes!

Ok that's settled.

Yes, and Virgil said to count him in. He should make it doubly interesting. I think that Grace voted for the book also, so she will probably be interesting. How about it Grace?

I think you are right in what you say. There are more referances to Gudrun's jealousy in the ch "Continental".

Yes, several places in the text in different chapters I believe she explores the possibility and thought of being married to Gerald and just exactly how she would envision what type of life that would be.

Yes i noticed the relaxed and unreserved atmosphere . That was a very nice part, with the description of the dances and merriment.

It is interesting - Lawrence uses this frenzied type of gay, spirited dancing in many of his writings to show a feeling of unrestrained freedom. Biographers claim that his father loved to dance and was quite good at it. I believe that is the root of his use of dancing to show the less restricted mood and the more earthy, unrestrained type of personalities. In "Twilight in Italy" he has a marvelous dance scene. It is very sensual and described in a way that is quite sexual and filled with erotic excitement. When I read this scene in WIL I immediately thought of the other scene which someone once posted on this site in the Lawrence section. You may still be able to find it there. There is also some excellent commentary about the scene. Also, in "Sons and Lovers" I believe there is a very distinctive scene at the Miriam's house when the couples whirl around the floor in frenzied dancing. His first novel, "The White Peacock", has a similiar scene. Both scenes have much significance in the way of symbolism.

manolia, I knew you would appreciate "Director's Cut"

*Are we having fun yet?*

No, no I wouldn't say that. You're reading it for the first time. I have changed my mind throughout the course of many novels. By the way Manolia, I like your new avatar. Pretty.

Yes, manolia, I do also - is it an angel? I cannot fully make it out...but it looks very interesting.

OK, count me in too. As to the different versions, it is rather complicated. First there was a final version of the novel. But Lawrence had that privately published and then if I'm remembering it correctly it got edited for sexual content in public editions. This was called I think the "expurgated edition." But some time later (1960's?) the contents that were taken out were put back in for the original full edition. Now what complicates it further was that Lawrence had two previous full drafts before the final published edition, and these drafts have survived. The earlier drafts were actually substantially different than his final draft, and so scholars have actually published them, or at least the second draft which was more mature than the first. That second draft is called "John Thomas and Lady Jane" which I think was the working title of Lady Chatterly's Lover. I bet john Thomas and Lady Jane" can be found on amazon. I have never read the earlier drafts, but i have seen quotes from them. I hope that helps.

Virgil, thanks for clearing this up some. I knew about the "John Thomas and Lady Jane" version. I will check Amazon to see if they have all three versions (?). I am curious now. I may also do more research into it. Do we have a copy of LCL here on this site? Nowdays with a resurgence of interest in Lawrence's work, many of the scholars are putting back the original 'cut' parts of the text, therefore restoring them. I know Cambridge is doing much of this work. Let's hope they are exactly what Lawrence intended in his original writings.

Schokokeks, fantastic - you stuck with the book! It is good to see you back to discuss. It is not at all too late to do so. You can easily go back to parts of the book. We have not discussed all yet. I hope to go back as well and review some things that now seem very important and significant. I think the ending appropriate, as well.

Glad to hear you will go onto other modernists. I read "To the Lighthouse" and also "Mrs. Dalloway" a few years ago. If you need any help or want to discuss them later on let me know; we could start a thread. Both books are quite fascinating. Wolfe's style is more 'stream of consciousness', but so beautifully and brilliantly written. It is even less plot driven that L's work I believe.

Note: Pensive and a few others are currently discussing "Sons and Lovers" in it's own thread. It is a great book. You will like it. Pensive found it very interesting.

[manolia]

No, no I wouldn't say that. You're reading it for the first time. I have changed my mind throughout the course of many novels.

manolia, I actually feel more sympathy for Gerald as time goes by in the novel. I don't know if I like Gerald better than Birkin, nor if it truly relevant to me to like either of them. I simply see all the characters as they are, which feels very realistic. I feel deeply involved with all four characters. By the end....hehehe...manolia...you may change your mind again - "Changing ones mind is a woman's perogative" - so the saying goes!

Someone has already said (i don't remember who but it is one of you two) that Birkin's presence is stronger at the first half of the book, where he steps in and analyses many of his ideas (which are in fact the themes of the book). I can see now how true this statement is. From a certain chapter and onwards i think that the Gerald-Gudrun pair is more prominent. I guess that's why i prefer Gerald now.

By the way Manolia, I like your new avatar. Pretty.

Yes, manolia, I do also - is it an angel? I cannot fully make it out...but it looks very interesting.

Thank you both . It is an angel with a wounded heart

OK, count me in too. As to the different versions, it is rather complicated. First there was a final version of the novel. But Lawrence had that privately published and then if I'm remembering it correctly it got edited for sexual content in public editions. This was called I think the "expurgated edition." But some time later (1960's?) the contents that were taken out were put back in for the original full edition. Now what complicates it further was that Lawrence had two previous full drafts before the final published edition, and these drafts have survived. The earlier drafts were actually substantially different than his final draft, and so scholars have actually published them, or at least the second draft which was more mature than the first. That second draft is called "John Thomas and Lady Jane" which I think was the working title of Lady Chatterly's Lover. I bet john Thomas and Lady Jane" can be found on amazon. I have never read the earlier drafts, but i have seen quotes from them. I hope that helps.

We count you in . Thanx for the explanation concerning LCL.

Have you read ch 29 "Continental"? This is not a spoiler if you haven't, so i'll ask anyway. In this ch there is this guy Loerke whom Birkin (or Gerald) describes with very negative words. The word "Jew" is used with contempt. I wonder if L was an antisemitist (?). I remember what we were discussing about his being friendly towards fascism..so was he speaking his mind or depicting (perhaps) the already present tendency in Europe against jews?

Yes, and Virgil said to count him in. He should make it doubly interesting. I think that Grace voted for the book also, so she will probably be interesting. How about it Grace?

Yes it would be very interesting

[grace86]

Manolia, hehe I am trying to figure out what Janine meant by that last quote of hers you posted. I must search the thread!!! I seem to be a little lost. What would be interesting?!!! AAAH!!

Janine I did mean "infected," I guess it would be better if I had said that Birkin seems like a catalyst: he starts these big soul searching ideas on humanity, and after he says his bit, the other characters are "infected," they start thinking about it unconsciously. I have no idea if that makes any sense.

[Janine]

Manolia, hehe I am trying to figure out what Janine meant by that last quote of hers you posted. I must search the thread!!! I seem to be a little lost. What would be interesting?!!! AAAH!!

Janine I did mean "infected," I guess it would be better if I had said that Birkin seems like a catalyst: he starts these big soul searching ideas on humanity, and after he says his bit, the other characters are "infected," they start thinking about it unconsciously. I have no idea if that makes any sense.

Grace, Sorry, I meant to say 'interested' and not 'interesting'. However, I am sure whatever you should add to the discussion would indeed be "interesting'. We are talking about read "Lady Chatterly's Lover" and discussing it; next year would be good for all of us. I thought you had voted on that book for this month, but I might be wrong. You still may be interested in joining our discussion group when we decide to make a thread.

Ok, I understand the "infected" idea. Yes, Birkin certainly did do that with his words. I just thought infection sounded kind of like a disease and took on negative conodations.

Someone has already said (i don't remember who but it is one of you two) that Birkin's presence is stronger at the first half of the book, where he steps in and analyses many of his ideas (which are in fact the themes of the book). I can see now how true this statement is. From a certain chapter and onwards i think that the Gerald-Gudrun pair is more prominent. I guess that's why i prefer Gerald now

manolia, yeah - that someone was me!

Thank you both . It is an angel with a wounded heart

Ahhh.....how poignant. I like the photo/drawing (?) Hope it is not your broken heart...

Have you read ch 29 "Continental"? This is not a spoiler if you haven't, so i'll ask anyway. In this ch there is this guy Loerke whom Birkin (or Gerald) describes with very negative words. The word "Jew" is used with contempt. I wonder if L was an antisemitist (?). I remember what we were discussing about his being friendly towards fascism..so was he speaking his mind or depicting (perhaps) the already present tendency in Europe against jews?

Yes, I think the question as to whether Lawrence was truly 'antisemitic' is a difficult one to answer. I know he made a statement, something to do with annilating people in the Crystal Palace, and many people like to quote this, but it is greatly misinterpretted and I have looked it up and some background on the statement and see it was taken out of context and now I understand what he was getting at.
In WIL in this chapter he says 'Jew' very casually and perhaps sees it in a negative vain; depends on how you look at it. He certainly does not like Loerke, but Loerke has other characteristics that men would definitely find offensive. At that time Jews were looked down on in England and central Europe, I believe. This is taken from what I have read of Germany, for certain. I may be wrong, but from other reading concerning the fascists and the Nazi's I got this impression. I did note when the word was said, and wondered about it, but pretty much took it as the attitude of the day in English society. I hope Virgil comments further on this point.

GREAT posts everyone!!!

[grace86]

Yes I did vote for Lady Chatterly's Lover. Sorry I just didn't look back in the posts. If you guys are planning on reading it later it sounds like a great idea. I was planning on reading it this summer but as of right now I don't think that will happen.

[Virgil]

Yes I did vote for Lady Chatterly's Lover. Sorry I just didn't look back in the posts. If you guys are planning on reading it later it sounds like a great idea. I was planning on reading it this summer but as of right now I don't think that will happen.

How about around the Christmas holidays, after your finals Grace? That will give us some space from this novel. I agree with Manolia; it gets old reading the same writer back to back.

[Virgil]

It is interesting - Lawrence uses this frenzied type of gay, spirited dancing in many of his writings to show a feeling of unrestrained freedom. Biographers claim that his father loved to dance and was quite good at it. I believe that is the root of his use of dancing to show the less restricted mood and the more earthy, unrestrained type of personalities. In "Twilight in Italy" he has a marvelous dance scene. It is very sensual and described in a way that is quite sexual and filled with erotic excitement. When I read this scene in WIL I immediately thought of the other scene which someone once posted on this site in the Lawrence section. You may still be able to find it there. There is also some excellent commentary about the scene. Also, in "Sons and Lovers" I believe there is a very distinctive scene at the Miriam's house when the couples whirl around the floor in frenzied dancing. His first novel, "The White Peacock", has a similiar scene. Both scenes have much significance in the way of symbolism.

You guys just enlightened me to another recurring motif in Lawrence's work. I had not thought of this. Thank you. There is a great dance scene in The Plumed Serpent where Kate, the leading character of the novel, an Irish woman in Mexico, is pulled into a native dance with the Mexican Indians. It's probably the best scene in the entire novel. Dance is an important theme for Lawrence. I think some of the comments as to what it suggests are correct. But i have to give it more thought.

Virgil, thanks for clearing this up some. I knew about the "John Thomas and Lady Jane" version. I will check Amazon to see if they have all three versions (?). I am curious now. I may also do more research into it. Do we have a copy of LCL here on this site? Nowdays with a resurgence of interest in Lawrence's work, many of the scholars are putting back the original 'cut' parts of the text, therefore restoring them. I know Cambridge is doing much of this work. Let's hope they are exactly what Lawrence intended in his original writings.

It would nice if Cambridge would put out a single edition encompassing all three draft versions. That would be awesome and I would get it in a heartbeat.

Glad to hear you will go onto other modernists. I read "To the Lighthouse" and also "Mrs. Dalloway" a few years ago. If you need any help or want to discuss them later on let me know; we could start a thread. Both books are quite fascinating. Wolfe's style is more 'stream of consciousness', but so beautifully and brilliantly written. It is even less plot driven that L's work I believe.

Janine, we will probably be reading To The Lighthouse as a summer read. I hope you can join us. You can vote (*hint, hint*) for it here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=25340

Note: Pensive and a few others are currently discussing "Sons and Lovers" in it's own thread. It is a great book. You will like it. Pensive found it very interesting.

I've been checking. It's been so long since I read it that I couldn't really add anything to what you and Pensy are saying.

Have you read ch 29 "Continental"? This is not a spoiler if you haven't, so i'll ask anyway. In this ch there is this guy Loerke whom Birkin (or Gerald) describes with very negative words. The word "Jew" is used with contempt. I wonder if L was an antisemitist (?). I remember what we were discussing about his being friendly towards fascism..so was he speaking his mind or depicting (perhaps) the already present tendency in Europe against jews?

Yes, I think the question as to whether Lawrence was truly 'antisemitic' is a difficult one to answer. I know he made a statement, something to do with annilating people in the Crystal Palace, and many people like to quote this, but it is greatly misinterpretted and I have looked it up and some background on the statement and see it was taken out of context and now I understand what he was getting at.
In WIL in this chapter he says 'Jew' very casually and perhaps sees it in a negative vain; depends on how you look at it. He certainly does not like Loerke, but Loerke has other characteristics that men would definitely find offensive. At that time Jews were looked down on in England and central Europe, I believe. This is taken from what I have read of Germany, for certain. I may be wrong, but from other reading concerning the fascists and the Nazi's I got this impression. I did note when the word was said, and wondered about it, but pretty much took it as the attitude of the day in English society. I hope Virgil comments further on this point.

I haven't reached that yet. But I think Lawrence was mildly anti-semitic by our standards today. I'm not sure it was that much different than people of his time. You can find such comments in Hemingway frequently and other writers of the WWI era. I don't know if it had increased at that time from historical levels, but I certainly come across it in eary 20th century literature (Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot) more frequently than in 19th century literature. This may all be part of the trend that led to Nazism and jewish halocaust. I don't feel it is right to blame Germans solely for anti-semitism of the time; it was across Europe.

[grace86]

How about around the Christmas holidays, after your finals Grace? That will give us some space from this novel. I agree with Manolia; it gets old reading the same writer back to back.

It seems a far way off but I know it will come soon enough, sure I am up for it. At least I will have a reading date attached to one of the many books on my to read list!

There is a great dance scene in The Plumed Serpent where Kate, the leading character of the novel, an Irish woman in Mexico, is pulled into a native dance with the Mexican Indians.

"Plumed" and "Serpent" along with "Mexico" okay I've just added another Lawrence novel to my list of things to read!!! At least...if it is about what I think the name would suggest!

I noticed there was a conversation going on about Sons and Lovers...hmm so many books to read and so little time!

(Virgil Don Quixote is calling me!)

[Virgil]

It seems a far way off but I know it will come soon enough, sure I am up for it. At least I will have a reading date attached to one of the many books on my to read list!

Great!

"Plumed" and "Serpent" along with "Mexico" okay I've just added another Lawrence novel to my list of things to read!!! At least...if it is about what I think the name would suggest!

It's not one of his great novels. The great novels are Sons and Lovers, The Rainbow, Women In Love, and Lady Chatterly's Lover. If you still want to go beyond that i would recommend some of the short novels and short stories. My, what do you mean you understand what "Plumed" and "Serpent" suggest?

(Virgil Don Quixote is calling me!)

Yeah, I know, me too. As soon as I finish WIL. I was looking for my edition of Don Quixote just about two hours ago.

[Janine]

Wowy, all of you have been super busy today. It is good to see so many enthusiastic posts. This discussion is great!

How about around the Christmas holidays, after your finals Grace? That will give us some space from this novel. I agree with Manolia; it gets old reading the same writer back to back.

Virgil, you are such a typical male. This just supports my idea that women do all the work during the holiday season. Who will have time then? Maybe, after Christmas when many have the break from school. Before is so hectic usually for me, I can't even think. Only good thing is LCL's is a much shorter book, and I don't think as complicated as this book is, plus I have read it twice before.

Grace, Yes, since I posted that, I checked the poll and you did vote for "LCL".
Schokokeks, you voted for "Sons and Lovers".
It is nice to see both of your here participating in the story neither of you voted for. Good sportmanship girls. You both have to read the other two novels eventually. You will like them.

You guys just enlightened me to another recurring motif in Lawrence's work. I had not thought of this. Thank you. There is a great dance scene in The Plumed Serpent where Kate, the leading character of the novel, an Irish woman in Mexico, is pulled into a native dance with the Mexican Indians. It's probably the best scene in the entire novel. Dance is an important theme for Lawrence. I think some of the comments as to what it suggests are correct. But i have to give it more thought.

Yes, I thought you had recalled that post on the actual Lawrence thread about the dancing. I thought you had particapted in that thread but maybe I am wrong. You should go to the page and read it. I am pretty sure it is still there. It might be under the Travel books or a similiar name. I'll check after I post this. Interesting that in the Plumed Serpent there is also a very significant dance. Dance did crop up often in Lawrence's work. Like I said his father was a proficient dancer. He also liked to sing. Although he was crude at times and lowly in his work as a collier he had a great sense of gaity and liking to have a fun time.

It would nice if Cambridge would put out a single edition encompassing all three draft versions. That would be awesome and I would get it in a heartbeat.

Oh wouldn't it though....but I don't think they will. They can make more money selling them separately I believe. But then again I suppose it is in the realm of possibility. Hey, Virgil, you should write them and suggest it.

Janine, we will probably be reading To The Lighthouse as a summer read. I hope you can join us. You can vote (*hint, hint*) for it here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=25340

No kidding? Then I will definitely participate in that one. I would like to re-read that book. My friend lent it to me so I can borrow it back. I will be voting. When is the deadline?

[QUOTEI've been checking. It's been so long since I read it that I couldn't really add anything to what you and Pensy are saying.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that discussion is going along better than I expected. Now Pensive and Quasimodo are keeping me jumping. Also, our discussion on the Baby Tortoise with ktd222 is wonderful. This is a really stellar month for me, loving Lawrence's work. Best thing is I am learning so much more than I previously knew. This is great!

"Plumed" and "Serpent" along with "Mexico" okay I've just added another Lawrence novel to my list of things to read!!! At least...if it is about what I think the name would suggest!

It's not one of his great novels. The great novels are Sons and Lovers, The Rainbow, Women In Love, and Lady Chatterly's Lover. If you still want to go beyond that i would recommend some of the short novels and short stories. My, what do you mean you understand what "Plumed" and "Serpent" suggest?

I fully agree with Virgil. "The Plumed Serpent" is way too advanced. He wrote that later in his life. I am not even sure if I read it, nor if I would understand it. I might need Virgil's help Virg, doesn't it have a lot of symbolism in it and much of Lawrence's later philosophy? The other novels that Virgil suggested are good and better to start with. I also like the shorter novels such as "The Fox" and "Love Among the Haystakes" and "The Lady Bird"....all really fine writing and not long novels like WIL - quite short actually.

[grace86]

Virgil: those words remind me of my art history class of Mesoamerica. We talked a lot about the natives' use and meaning of the feathered serpent.