can somebody help me understand this?!

[Unbeliever]

You have conveniently used equivocation (or a lack of understanding) to make this point. The 600 odd prescriptions in the OT are not "the law" per se. Homosexuality was included under the umbrella term "sexual immorality" (as was prostitution, adultery, fornication, beastiality, incest, et al). When Jesus and Paul caution against "sexual immorality," it was understood that that term covered ALL types of sexual misbehavior.

Sexual misbehavior as defined by whom, exactly? Would that include any sexual act other than sex between a married man and woman only for procreation using only the missionary position?

We "rail" about sin because we know that it ultimately leads to self-destruction. Non-believers see "sin" as little more than some sort of mistake, or crime - they don't see it with the same eyes we do - namely, that it has eternal consequences.

You're right, the only thing I, at least, consider as "sin" (though I don't call it that) is causing harm to others, and I don't see sex between consenting adults to be a harm to anyone.

You'd not have a problem with Christians "railing" about smoking, or heroin use, or prostitution because (I assume) you'd see those as self-destructive; well, sin is WORSE.

Actually, I would have a problem with that, because if those things aren't abused they don't harm anyone at all. If Christians don't like those things, they're free to not do those things, but banning them just because their particular diety is considered to not like them is merely oppression.

It leads (ultimately) to death.

Life is what leads to death; we are all under a sentence of death for the crime of having been born. Aside from that, things like driving cars or burning candles can "ultimately lead to death", would you therefore ban those things?

The Bible lists homosexuality as a sin - so we think its self-destructive. What we "rail" about is not that homosexuality exists but that society seems hell-bent on pushing it as a valid alternative to heterosexual behavior - that's why we're "railing" - just like you might "rail" is you saw TV shows advocating prostitution or drugs as viable alternatives to traditional jobs or medications.

So, if it's not a valid alternative to heterosexuality, then simply don't engage in it - but Christians are the ones pushing their "morality" on everyone else.

[Gorilla King]

Everyone pushes their morality on everyone else. At this point in society it's a moot point. Permissiveness is a push against moderation and moderation is perceived as a chain on permissiveness. The sad thing about modern society is rather than having an open exchange of ideas, we try to shut certain ideas out as if by not speaking about them we can all live in happiness. The fact is, by not speaking about them we all become MORE intolerant and unable to cope with the differences in others.

[Scheherazade]

The OP of the thread:

hey all, the other day i came across this quote by Voltaire:
"If God didn't exist it would be necessary for us to invent Him"

looking at ancient civilizations such as the Greeks and the Romans and even before that , they all didn't have an idea about "God"and so they created their own...
my question is how can someone not believe in anything how can you be an atheist?
i do believe that humans have this urge to believe in something bigger than they are no matter what this thing is....

[Redzeppelin]

I guess that's a friendly reminder to cease this digression. *sigh* - it was getting good, too. Perhaps another thread will open up on this topic because it is an important one to talk about...

[Unbeliever]

Perhaps we've strayed a bit off topic, sorry, I'll try to get back to it.

looking at ancient civilizations such as the Greeks and the Romans and even before that , they all didn't have an idea about "God"and so they created their own...

I think the ancient Jews (Canaanites) created their own God just as much as did the Greeks and Romans. I see no evidence that they didn't do so.

I don't quite understand what you mean, stella, whan you say the ancient Greeks and Romans had no idea about God. How could they create their own if they had no such idea?

[Redzeppelin]

As a Christian, I believe God is the creator of humanity; as such, it makes sense to me that creations bear the stamp of their creator; so - I believe God designed us with a "God consciousness" - an awareness that He exists, but that this consciousness will generally manifest itself in a less specific way by instilling within us some sense that there is something far more transcendant than ourselves - something greater than us that exists. It is this, I believe, that has inspired the greatest art - humans trying to "touch" or possess that transcendant "thing" that they know exists but can't quite put their finger on it. Christians know that this "thing" is our designer Himself. But, we as humans are capable of putting any number of things into that "God-shaped hole" inside our hearts: we can manufacture "gods" of our own making (pagan religions) or we can make things into gods - drugs, sex, money, fame, power - you name it.

[Gorilla King]

Perhaps we've strayed a bit off topic, sorry, I'll try to get back to it.



I think the ancient Jews (Canaanites) created their own God just as much as did the Greeks and Romans. I see no evidence that they didn't do so.

I don't quite understand what you mean, stella, whan you say the ancient Greeks and Romans had no idea about God. How could they create their own if they had no such idea?

What's your evidence for believing the Hebrews made up their own God and what then do you make of the old testament prophecies of Jesus?

[Unbeliever]

What's your evidence for believing the Hebrews made up their own God and what then do you make of the old testament prophecies of Jesus?

Well, first of all, I didn't say I have evidence that they made up their own God, I said I don't see any evidence that they didn't. But, since you ask, I'll see if I can provide some evidence.

The best evidence I can site, on short notice (I'm almost out of time for today, I'll try to satisfy your request better tomorrow), is the Bible itself. I've read it cover to cover 3 times, and studied it somewhat besides. It strikes me as having been man-made, I see no evidence in it of divine authorship.

As far as the OT prophecies concerning Jesus, I think they were not, in fact, prophecies of Jesus at all, but were instead an attempt to retrofit certain OT verses to seem like prophecies, and then were included in the Jesus story as being fulfilled by Jesus after the fact. In other words, the authors of the NT wanted to impress their readers with these claims of fulfilled prophecy, and so wrote the story so it would seem like prophecy was being fulfilled. I can go into more detail on this tomorrow if you'd like, I'm out of time now.

[Gorilla King]

Well, first of all, I didn't say I have evidence that they made up their own God, I said I don't see any evidence that they didn't. But, since you ask, I'll see if I can provide some evidence.

The best evidence I can site, on short notice (I'm almost out of time for today, I'll try to satisfy your request better tomorrow), is the Bible itself. I've read it cover to cover 3 times, and studied it somewhat besides. It strikes me as having been man-made, I see no evidence in it of divine authorship.

As far as the OT prophecies concerning Jesus, I think they were not, in fact, prophecies of Jesus at all, but were instead an attempt to retrofit certain OT verses to seem like prophecies, and then were included in the Jesus story as being fulfilled by Jesus after the fact. In other words, the authors of the NT wanted to impress their readers with these claims of fulfilled prophecy, and so wrote the story so it would seem like prophecy was being fulfilled. I can go into more detail on this tomorrow if you'd like, I'm out of time now.

Well let's start with the big one...Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

I'd be interested to hear your interpretation of that apart from Jesus. Mind you it was written about 600 years before him.

Second, while it's interesting to say that the gospel stories were retrofit to suit all of this, it just doesn't work. For one thing, the Pharisees had every reason to put down this Christian movement. Even Paul (before he became Paul) had the job of hunting down Christians and bringing them to trial for blasphemy. If they didn't crucify a man named Jesus (or Yeshua more accurately) then why didn't they simply prevent the evidence to the people and put down this little insurrection? And if Jesus didn't claim to be God and do the things the apostles reported Him to have done, then why did all of them with the exception of John who was sent into exile, allow themselves to be killed through violent methods for a lie? And if there were so many witnesses to these events, secular and otherwise, where are ANY contrary reports concerning Jesus? I don't know of a single one in existence. And how is it that they could make a claim such as the post crucification appearance of Jesus to so many when not a single person ever stepped forward and said "that didn't happen." Rather, the rapid spread of the early church seems to indicate that it did indeed happen.

And let's talk about the crucification. If the claim being made was that Jesus had resurrected and this was THE hinge point of all Christian belief (because remember that even the disciples and apostles scattered in fear when he died) then all the Pharisees had to do was present the body. Some say that the apostles stole the body. That's kind of difficult however considering that the tombs were guarded by 8 fully armed Roman guards with four in front and four in back with penalty of death on them should they fall asleep. Then there's the whole issue of moving the stone. It weighed about 2000 pounds. So that means the apostles would have to sneak past 8 Roman guards, move a 2,000 pound stone without their noticing and then steal away with the body and convince everyone else that Jesus had risen. And add on to that the fact that they were all willing to die for this thing which they knew was a lie. How do you rationalize that?

[Derringer]

It is this, I believe, that has inspired the greatest art - humans trying to "touch" or possess that transcendant "thing" that they know exists but can't quite put their finger on it.

Wow, we believe in almost the exact same thing. Except you would have to replace 'Christianity' with 'arts & literature'. Are you familiar with Ralph Waldo Emerson?

[weepingforloman]

Well, first of all, I didn't say I have evidence that they made up their own God, I said I don't see any evidence that they didn't. But, since you ask, I'll see if I can provide some evidence.

The best evidence I can site, on short notice (I'm almost out of time for today, I'll try to satisfy your request better tomorrow), is the Bible itself. I've read it cover to cover 3 times, and studied it somewhat besides. It strikes me as having been man-made, I see no evidence in it of divine authorship.

As far as the OT prophecies concerning Jesus, I think they were not, in fact, prophecies of Jesus at all, but were instead an attempt to retrofit certain OT verses to seem like prophecies, and then were included in the Jesus story as being fulfilled by Jesus after the fact. In other words, the authors of the NT wanted to impress their readers with these claims of fulfilled prophecy, and so wrote the story so it would seem like prophecy was being fulfilled. I can go into more detail on this tomorrow if you'd like, I'm out of time now.

Just as unsubstantiated as anything can be. You don't believe in Christ's divinity, therefore you find it more plausible to believe specifics were manufactured to fit the prophecies, I DO believe in Christ's divinity, and so I take them at face value. Make of that what you will.

[JGL57]

Just as unsubstantiated as anything can be. You don't believe in Christ's divinity, therefore you find it more plausible to believe specifics were manufactured to fit the prophecies, I DO believe in Christ's divinity, and so I take them at face value. Make of that what you will.

It does seem to be a matter of opinion, doesn't it? E.g., eight hundred million Muslims disagree with you on this, and I disagree with their beliefs, but the Bahais disagree with you, me and the Muslims, and then the Hindus think we are all wrong-headed, etc., etc., etc.

[Gorilla King]

It does seem to be a matter of opinion, doesn't it? E.g., eight hundred million Muslims disagree with you on this, and I disagree with their beliefs, but the Bahais disagree with you, me and the Muslims, and then the Hindus think we are all wrong-headed, etc., etc., etc.

I really don't think it is a matter of opinion per se. I think there are facts out there which people either are ignorant of or come to different conclusions about. I mean how many of those muslims or hindu's do you suppose have delved into Christian apologetics? On one hand you have Allah who is largely impersonal and with whom even Mohamed didn't know if he would go to heaven, and then with Hinduism you have 300 million gods and a caste system which is brutal towards the lower classes. Christianity is the only belief system where God IS personal and salvation isn't a matter of works, but grace. That's one of the major reasons why amidst the sea of different religions between the time of Christ and 300 AD that Christianity overthrew 800 years of pagan worship in Rome to become the dominant religion. It said that in Christ we are all brothers and sisters regardless of our Earthly social status. That was quite a revolutionary idea.

[JGL57]

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it all - but I disagree with nearly every point you make. Mainly, I think you are being rather selective in your analysis - disregarding the bad of christianity and over-emphasizing the good, disregarding the good of non-christian philosophies and over-emphasizing the bad.

Personally, I think that a disinterested study of all the facts leads one to ecumenism, not sectarianism.

Thus, we are at eternal loggerheads.

But have a nice day.

[Gorilla King]

And what in your opinion is the bad of Christianity? I'm not talking about what people do...people are entirely fallible. I'm talking the teachings of Jesus.